2015 Worlds Men Free Skate March 28

[Mrs. P]

The criticism towards Jasons san quad is valid because he is clearly being propped as US #1 to the nth degree by his federation. The criticism wouldn't have happened if he is considered as #2 or #3. This is a sport. At this level, you skate to win. By selecting him, US federation sabotaged their own skaters by sending out the wrong messages to the ISU judges, going we just don't think our quads men are that good actually.

Although Jason is the only one that skate the lights out out of the US men and re-enforce his #1 status, he has also proved that at his absolute best, he can only be considered 5th best against these quads men however flawed and mistake prone they are.

His excellent performance and placement proves the quads criticisms are valid. Although there are alot to appreciate in his skating and his improvements are tremendous, but he doesn't have the fire power if US is seriously thinking about a podium finish.

Not true. Joshua Farris was thisclose to winning. He would have tied Jason in the SP had he not made that error on his 3-3 and missed a spin level. Same with the FS (i.e. didn't zayak). He got the highest PCS in that segment, not Jason.

Jason wasn't even a factor in fall 2013 for Sochi. Kori was told numerous times that wanted a U.S. man with two quads. She basically had to build a skating program from the ground up because she couldn't get in to World Arena. Basically USFSA got on the bandwagon after the fact when 1.) He medaled on the GP 2.) Beat everyone but Jeremy at Nationals and 3.) Became a viral sensation with his Riverdance FS.

Even while struggling this past fall/GP Season, he still managed some of the top scores among the top men in the GP and would have made the GP Final had Jeremy Abbott finished 0.16 points higher at NHK (i.e. beating Yuzuru, who too was struggling). Joshua was a mess at NHK. The other men were sluggish too. If Jason was a favorite, it was only cause he performed well to others.

But it was clear that once 2013 Jr. Worlds champ Joshua Farris (not the NHK 2014 Josh) showed up at Nationals, all bets were off, as we could see from the PCS scores. They were basically tied. When Josh won silver at 4CC and Jason struggled (relatively speaking), Josh suddenly became the one who could help the U.S. medal. In Sam Auxiller's (USFSA president) interview with Here and Now, the National Public Radio news show, he doesn't mention Jason at all. He mentions Josh as the most likely medal threat because he does quads.

By selecting him, US federation sabotaged their own skaters by sending out the wrong messages to the ISU judges, going we just don't think our quads men are that good actually.

Actually it's the exact opposite, USFS is following the lead of ISU judges. ISU judges have continued to give Jason the highest PCS marks among all the U.S. men. The only one who scored higher was Jeremy Abbott and that's not by much. ISU judges gave Jason a 75+ with a flawed quadless program at RC while Max barely beat him with a 76+ score with a 4S-2T, 3A, 3Z.

As to Jason's performance at Worlds:

FWIW, Jason was not at his absolutely technical best at the Worlds FS (his technical best was at 4CC), while it was arguably his best performance wise. He actually ticked up PCS by one point (he got 83+ at 4CC), but he scored 5 points less in TES compared to 4CC, due to the 3A<< ,primarily. He lost 10+ points between that error and the one on his 3Z-1L-3S combo, so actually the margin would have been much closer had he not made those errors.

He doesn't have maximum firepower NOW...which is why he didn't get a medal. But he had enough firepower to get 4th and help US get three spots in his first Worlds. Let's wait and see where he goes from here.

The criticism, iMO, comes down to this: Jason is not putting enough urgency in getting the quad in the eyes of some people and that somehow he's not apologetic for it. That seems to be the heart of the issue.

Ultimately all Jason can do is keep training the quad, do what he can with the skills he has and see where he places.

 

[StitchMonkey]

By selecting him, US federation sabotaged their own skaters by sending out the wrong messages to the ISU judges, going we just don't think our quads men are that good actually.

Max Aaron was the only man to land any clean quads at US Nationals. Sadly the international judges don't seem to appreciate him any more than the US judges. Perhaps he should have been put on just for the sake of having quads, but it hardly seems Jason in first should be the one he replaces.

It' not like we have this sea of options of men who land beautiful perfect quads regularly.

 

[peg]

Although Jason is the only one that skate the lights out out of the US men and re-enforce his #1 status, he has also proved that at his absolute best, he can only be considered 5th best against these quads men however flawed and mistake prone they are.

In fairness to Jason, he wasn't at his absolute best technically at Worlds, and although he was 5th in the FS, he was 4th overall. Plus, Nam, who beat him in the FS was at his best, and only barely beat him.

That said, yes, to truly contend for the podium, he will need a quad. But it's not like he and his team are ignoring that reality. Constant criticism from the media and the public isn't going to help him get the quad any quicker.

 

[Tavi...]

The criticism towards Jasons san quad is valid because he is clearly being propped as US #1 to the nth degree by his federation. The criticism wouldn't have happened if he is considered as #2 or #3. This is a sport. At this level, you skate to win. By selecting him, US federation sabotaged their own skaters by sending out the wrong messages to the ISU judges, going we just don't think our quads men are that good actually.

Although Jason is the only one that skate the lights out out of the US men and re-enforce his #1 status, he has also proved that at his absolute best, he can only be considered 5th best against these quads men however flawed and mistake prone they are.

His excellent performance and placement proves the quads criticisms are valid. Although there are alot to appreciate in his skating and his improvements are tremendous, but he doesn't have the fire power if US is seriously thinking about a podium finish.

So...you acknowledge that Jason's performance and placement are "excellent," he's able to "skate lights out," there's "a lot to appreciate in his skating," and his "improvements are tremendous." He placed fourth at Worlds in his first appearance there, behind only Hanyu, Javi and D10; had he not screwed up his 2d 3A and his 3S, he likely would have been within 10 points of D10, without a quad. But...he shouldn't compete because he's quadless and it sabotages all the US quad guys? Because without Jason to confuse the international judges, all of our quad guys will suddenly find favor with them and start medaling? Or what?

 

[shirfire218]

Thank you for some sanity! I really cannot believe the negativity and lack of appreciation for on here for very likely the best artistry by a skater in the world..and not to mention the criticism towards someone competing at their first Worlds and coming in 4th Place! That is an outstanding accomplishment. Neither Jason nor the skating viewer and the many more who would be viewers if quads were not shoved down their throats, so they get to see splatfests instead of skating can help that the sport got this out of control. I believe it's plunge in popularity can be directly attributed to the lack of visual enjoyment to the average fan by a bunch of skaters attempting quads and often falling, plus a lack of focus on artistry, which Jason is King of.

 

[dorispulaski]

shirtfire218, welcome to goldenskate! As a Jason fan, I hope you have found our Jason fan fest thread! Jason has many fans here.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?41239-Jason-Brown

 

[karne]

Max Aaron was the only man to land any clean quads at US Nationals. Sadly the international judges don't seem to appreciate him any more than the US judges. Perhaps he should have been put on just for the sake of having quads, but it hardly seems Jason in first should be the one he replaces. .

ITA.

IMO, planning a downgraded quad, knowing it's not ready, is a worse sin than not planning a quad because you know it's not ready.

I won't deny that, just little, it irked me that no US man landed a quad. Especially given who was patiently back at home practicing his. But Jason was wonderful, and Joshua's step sequence is the most enchanting thing I have ever seen.

 

[Jaana]

Clearly, Javi is way over-scored on CH and IN. He skated very well technically despite the fall, but his choreo is NOT spectacular, and his IN should be scored average at best. No way in the 9s for what Javi is putting out! Those scores for CH and IN send Javi and Orser the wrong message that they are on the right track with what they put together this season. THEY ARE NOT! Javi needs to do some dance training and work harder on finding better music and choreography. Jason Brown received high PCS all in the 8s, but Jason's CH and IN should have been in the 9s right along with the top three guys.

I don´t agree about Javi. His PCS should be even higher, considering the extreme difficulty of his choreography. He is doing something all the time, before the jumps and after them. He should have had plenty of 10´s, in my opinion. Fantastic choreography to great piece of music!!! And his interpretation was perfect. The judge are sending a positive message to Orser, which is totally the right one.

Brown is overscored in PCS, I would say. Of course he has lots of transitions, but his speed is slow, which allows him to do all kind of moves, LOL. He should not be that close to top guys, hopefully that changes in next season. I think Brown was very lucky that unexpectedly lots of guys failed in the freeskate and gave him a gift. Let´s also remember that young Nam was 4th in the freeskate, not Brown....

 

[Blades of Passion]

His speed isn't "slow". There has even been a noticeable improvement going into his Triple Axels. If other guys skated "slower" they still wouldn't be able to do many of the transitions that Jason does. Not a good argument my Finn friend.

 

[OS]

re: Mrs.P our resident Jason Brown expert
Thank you for the informative post on why the ranking ends the way they are, however, I tends to look at protocols with a pinch of salt simply because although they explained what and why the things are the way they are, they rarely tells the full story.

I think we have all watched enough competitions to know PCS can be a little fiddly especially at National Championships. The results at nationals tends to indicate more about federation interests than what really went down on the day. It is more likely the federation already have a rough idea of who to back rather than reflect how the skaters actually have skated, to have the right ducks in a row.

Being picked as a power federation's #1 do come with its unofficial perks if the scoring ever tight. Being #3 in your power federation do makes you a spare especially in the volatility of the PCS department. If you are a #3 for example, it is very likely if you ever get dangerously beating some other power federation's #1, you are the first casualty to go and wouldn't get the PCS you deserve, OR you will see your PCS slump more than it should when you don't deliver. If you are a #1 who did deliver, the bump in PCS is likely to much higher than if you are your country's #2 or #3 subject to skating order. When you are your power federation #1, you also have the perk/reputation to a nice PCS cushion to save you from a complete disaster (judge's reactions are always delayed from one event to the next), and boost you even more IF you DO deliver if they haven't filled their quotas. Jason, Josh, Adam's are good example of this volatility thanks to the federation power, rankings and message they want to send across. It can be seen in the PCS at this event.

So...you acknowledge that Jason's performance and placement are "excellent," he's able to "skate lights out," there's "a lot to appreciate in his skating," and his "improvements are tremendous." He placed fourth at Worlds in his first appearance there, behind only Hanyu, Javi and D10; had he not screwed up his 2d 3A and his 3S, he likely would have been within 10 points of D10, without a quad. But...he shouldn't compete because he's quadless and it sabotages all the US quad guys? Because without Jason to confuse the international judges, all of our quad guys will suddenly find favor with them and start medaling? Or what?

I am addressing specifically the point on whether the quad-less criticisms are valid ONLY. Not anything else beyond that.

If the federation's agenda is to securing 3 spots (go conservative), then Jason is the right guy. If their agenda is to have a chance to podium (go brave and bold), Jason's potential is limited unless you are counting on everybody REALLY to crash and burn like Kovtun did. From the land of brave and bold in a sport that celebrate faster, higher, stronger, I was simply expecting a different candidate and a different approach, even though the end result do justified their decision.

--------------

Oh and I disagree Jason is the best artist. He is one of the great showman today for sure, but artistry is an organic process, until he matures and have developed the sort of preference on what type of skater he want to become, the sort of skating style, music, program, signature element/quality that makes a Jason Brown program, he is not quite there yet. He is young and have plenty of time to develop, but today, he is just a quality performer with great skating skills. I'd describe him as the male equivalent to Alena Leonva. Give him a Chaplin program, he will make you laugh and cry and keep you entertained many many times. Give him a Jeremy Abbott Barber program, then your mind may wonders off doing something else. Never say never though, I am always open to changes and new improvements.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

The main point is that Yuzu and Javi are not that consistent either, but both of them have had the quad in their arsenal much longer than Denis. And that's what makes the difference in medal count and GPF showing. Prior to 2013, Denis was well-liked by the judges for his skill and potential but he was considered more of a second tier skater. He suffered from nerves, injuries and equipment problems. Once Denis became healthy and perfected the quad, he gained more confidence. And then he had his breakthrough at Worlds 2013 where he skated two programs better than everyone else and with more consistency and artistry. In the fall of 2013, Denis had to come back from illness and injury issues and he was able to do so successfully by the time the Olympics rolled around in 2014. Barring injury, Denis is now on a par with Hanyu and Javi in terms of ability to land quads, and in terms of consistency issues complicated by trying to navigate all the required tech content.

So Denis has his breakthrough in 2013 yet for whatever reason the next 2 seasons don't count for the question of being consistent or not? How is the quad the main difference in GP showing and all when DTen had it at least since March 2013, again prior to the last 2 seasons?

And I don't want to diminish the determination and fight it took DTen to manage with his injuries and troubles, but that is no valid point in this argument. Javier also had an injury for a good part of this season, Yuzuru has a longer injury count this season than most skater in a whole quad. Yet both of them managed to skate better than DTen in the beginning of the season. Give them their due where they deserve it. For DTen this season was the first he managed 2 really good LPs, adn he had more than one great SP too - that's a huge improvement and might be a sign of greater things to come. But for now, no, you're simply wrong, he doesn't have Javis or Yuzurus whole season stamina and 'consistency' yet.

 

[HanDomi]

So Denis has his breakthrough in 2013 yet for whatever reason the next 2 seasons don't count for the question of being consistent or not? How is the quad the main difference in GP showing and all when DTen had it at least since March 2013, again prior to the last 2 seasons?

And I don't want to diminish the determination and fight it took DTen to manage with his injuries and troubles, but that is no valid point in this argument. Javier also had an injury for a good part of this season, Yuzuru has a longer injury count this season than most skater in a whole quad. Yet both of them managed to skate better than DTen in the beginning of the season. Give them their due where they deserve it. For DTen this season was the first he managed 2 really good LPs, adn he had more than one great SP too - that's a huge improvement and might be a sign of greater things to come. But for now, no, you're simply wrong, he doesn't have Javis or Yuzurus whole season stamina and 'consistency' yet.

Hanyu actually is the most consistent skater of the top. Not this season for obvious reasons, but last year he had 5 or 6 ? perfect SP's in a row, 3 great LP's (in 2 missing only quad salchow).

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Hanyu actually is the most consistent skater of the top. Not this season for obvious reasons, but last year he had 5 or 6 ? perfect SP's in a row, 3 great LP's (in 2 missing only quad salchow).

Yes, it were 5 amazing clean SPs in a row and I had the privilege to see one of them live I'm quite optimistic, if he'd manage to stay healthy throughout a season, that he'd be able to be pretty consistent and deliver more very good skates. He's survived the post-Olympic curse, let's see how he comes back next season (and in that sense, I'll remain with the opinion that losing to Javier now might be good for him).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hanyu actually is the most consistent skater of the top. Not this season for obvious reasons, but last year he had 5 or 6 ? perfect SP's in a row, 3 great LP's (in 2 missing only quad salchow).

The second half of last season, Hanyu was good (save for the Olympics when everyone was a mess). But the first half of the season on the GP was pretty dicey (except his excellent TEB SP). It's hard to label any male skater last season as "consistent".

 

[QMATTERS]

His speed isn't "slow". There has even been a noticeable improvement going into his Triple Axels. If other guys skated "slower" they still wouldn't be able to do many of the transitions that Jason does. Not a good argument my Finn friend.

Because I watch Jason's programs as a whole, I have noticed something his competition are lacking that he has. When he does his spins, with all those beautiful changes, he is spinning consistently in speed. I could not help notice that Hanyu did slow down when he was spinning. Jason is better in some areas, and the judges are noticing. He will continue to learn. That I am sure of.

 

[Meoima]

Because I watch Jason's programs as a whole, I have noticed something his competition are lacking that he has. When he does his spins, with all those beautiful changes, he is spinning consistently in speed. I could not help notice that Hanyu did slow down when he was spinning. Jason is better in some areas, and the judges are noticing. He will continue to learn. That I am sure of.

Hanyu was an excellent spiners when young before he has done many many quads. And I mean excellent in the purest meaning. Well Hanyu is still young now and his spin isn't bad even though it's not stellar as when he was younger, anyways he has been in senior circle for 5 years already. Just Look up Hanyu's programs when he was 15-16 years old. I'd say when Jason eventually tries quads, other elements in his programs will be affected. Life is like that. You have to trade something in return.

 

[Skater Boy]

Sure, but Patrick was actually the main skater post 2010 Olympics who heeded Plushy's whining call for macho quads. Patrick mastered the quad quickly and the judges were quite thrilled to see the quad combined with Patrick's SS and thus the quad became a requirement and men's scores began going thru the roof, and then began the OTT favoring of Patrick even when he made mistakes.



The main point is that Yuzu and Javi are not that consistent either, but both of them have had the quad in their arsenal much longer than Denis. And that's what makes the difference in medal count and GPF showing. Prior to 2013, Denis was well-liked by the judges for his skill and potential but he was considered more of a second tier skater. He suffered from nerves, injuries and equipment problems. Once Denis became healthy and perfected the quad, he gained more confidence. And then he had his breakthrough at Worlds 2013 where he skated two programs better than everyone else and with more consistency and artistry. In the fall of 2013, Denis had to come back from illness and injury issues and he was able to do so successfully by the time the Olympics rolled around in 2014. Barring injury, Denis is now on a par with Hanyu and Javi in terms of ability to land quads, and in terms of consistency issues complicated by trying to navigate all the required tech content.

I know I am in he minority but OTT marking really or generous marking we have seen that with Brown and mainly Hanyu. It is unfortunate that the loudest voicest are those that think Chan was overmarked because in reality he probably was overmarked but not comparatively to Hanyu or Brown or even Javi for his skating skills. I am fair in saying that Hanyu has improved his pcs/skating skills but he is not at the level of Chan yet he gets amazingly generous marks. His short program at world's had several bobbles yet the score was generously humngus. And ironically what people criticized of Chan well Hanyu ges away with it - he fell a couple of times at the olympics versus bobbles from Chan. This year we have seen Hanyu propped up with disastrous skates regardless of accidents which ironically he gets treated like a hero by many on this site. really his skating on af ter that horrilbe accident is nothing to brag about our encourage our young or anyone. He is very lucky he didn't pay ith a serious consequence ie permanent brain injury. If him anything getting a medal and going to the GPF sends the wrong message. i love Hanyus personality and his skating is wonderful though I am not a fan of his costumes lol. I like Chan though I prefer the style more say of a Lambiel but Chan did well in mastering COP - he may have pushed himself out technically as Javi and Hanyu have more quads and he stupidly by many didn't ge a coach to keep the 3axel under control. AS for Jason with no quads he does have great spins, may be a bit overmarked when you compare him to say Buttle without a quad but in line with a Evan L who did not have brown's flair but was an amazing competitor which is part of he game. We all generally l ike quads it adds excitement but it also may have led to more injuries and more flawed performances with spills. Now it is not uncommon for the world champion in a what is deemed a good skate to have fallen.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

It is unfortunate that the loudest voicest are those that think Chan was overmarked because in reality he probably was overmarked but not comparatively to Hanyu or Brown or even Javi for his skating skills.

Then maybe you should take into account that the skaters are marked for more than just their skating skills. There are also Jump GOE, spin GOE,...

I'm tired of this "people aren't as harsh on Hanyu as they were on Chan" stupidity. Even if that's the case, it only makes people sound as if they wanted more harsh comments towards Hanyu. They're situations aren't even that comparable, and even if, it won't stop those who want to be harsh with Chan anyway (and I agree people were too harsh on Chan, but I can also see why Hanyu is not getting the same treatment).

 

[Meoima]

^there is a thread about top points in BV and GOE and PCS for men and ladies and we all know who are still dominating the top 10 even though they don't compete this season.

 

[OS]

I know I am in he minority but OTT marking really or generous marking we have seen that with Brown and mainly Hanyu. It is unfortunate that the loudest voicest are those that think Chan was overmarked because in reality he probably was overmarked but not comparatively to Hanyu or Brown or even Javi for his skating skills. I am fair in saying that Hanyu has improved his pcs/skating skills but he is not at the level of Chan yet he gets amazingly generous marks. ...

Then maybe you should take into account that the skaters are marked for more than just their skating skills. There are also Jump GOE, spin GOE,...

I'm tired of this "people aren't as harsh on Hanyu as they were on Chan" stupidity. Even if that's the case, it only makes people sound as if they wanted more harsh comments towards Hanyu. They're situations aren't even that comparable, and even if, it won't stop those who want to be harsh with Chan anyway (and I agree people were too harsh on Chan, but I can also see why Hanyu is not getting the same treatment).

Actually... a few of us were just as tough on Hanyu, even as big massive fans. Remember these epic exchanges?

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...-Nationals-Men&p=692911&viewfull=1#post692911