2017 Skate Detroit

[xeyra]

I don't think so. What the ISU did say it was considering was defining the jump strictly by which edge you take off from, so that, for instance, any jump that took off from the outside edge would automatically be called a Lutz regardless of the entry or the skater's intention or other factors.

I think the proposal to combine the two jumps into one for scoring purposes was just suggested by fans on the Internet.

So if someone had a 2x3Lz and 1x3F planned and their 3F happened to be counted as outside edge and turned into a 3Lz... well, hello Zayak!

 

[Mathman]

So if someone had a 2x3Lz and 1x3F planned and their 3F happened to be counted as outside edge and turned into a 3Lz... well, hello Zayak!

The "edge purists" think that it is a good idea to Zayak this skater out, thus forcing her to work on her edges.

The opposite opinion -- that the flip and Lutz should be combined into one jump category and, for scoring purposes, it doesn't matter which edge you go off (the way that toe loops and toe Walleys are treated now) -- would still call this a Zayak because you did three of the same jump.

One proposal (by some fans on the Internet) would be to combine the two jumps into one, but give a bonus if you did two of them, one on each edge with no fooling about which edge you are on. To me, this would satisfy everyone -- hence it would satisfy no one.

 

[TontoK]

I don't think so. What the ISU did say it was considering was defining the jump strictly by which edge you take off from, so that, for instance, any jump that took off from the outside edge would automatically be called a Lutz regardless of the entry or the skater's intention or other factors.

I think the proposal to combine the two jumps into one for scoring purposes was just suggested by fans on the Internet.

Aren't jumps already defined as such?

By definition, a lutz takes off from an outside edge.

If the jump does not proceed from the outside edge, then it is not a lutz, so I don't think the issue is one of definition.

This is a technical panel issue. They should begin calling jumps as they are. It is not the technical panel's job to make sure a skater doesn't Zayak.

I know I've written this before, but here it is anyway:

People get twisted around perceived discrepancies in PCS, but totally ignore the larger scoring impact of improperly calling jumps, both in regard to edge take-off and rotation.

 

[xeyra]

The "edge purists" think that it is a good idea to Zayak this skater out, thus forcing her to work on her edges.

The opposite opinion -- that the flip and Lutz should be combined into one jump category and, for scoring purposes, it doesn't matter which edge you go off (the way that toe loops and toe Walleys are treated now) -- would still call this a Zayak because you did three of the same jump.

One proposal (by some fans on the Internet) would be to combine the two jumps into one, but give a bonus if you did two of them, one on each edge with no fooling about which edge you are on. To me, this would satisfy everyone -- hence it would satisfy no one.

But isn't the difference between a Lutz and a Flip more than just their takeoff edge? I thought the Lutz also had the particularity of being counter-rotated.

 

[TontoK]

But isn't the difference between a Lutz and a Flip more than just their takeoff edge? I thought the Lutz also had the particularity of being counter-rotated.

But the counter-rotation is achieved because the lutz takes off from an outside edge. If a "lutz" takes off from an inside edge, the element of counter-rotation does not exist.

I like the old-school lutz where the jump proceeded from a long clearly-defined curving outside edge. Now, the skaters tend to do a quick step to get to the inside edge - I'm not explaining this very well, but you see this type of lutz from a straight line entry.

 

[xeyra]

But the counter-rotation is achieved because the lutz takes off from an outside edge. If a "lutz" takes off from an inside edge, the element of counter-rotation does not exist.

I like the old-school lutz where the jump proceeded from a long clearly-defined curving outside edge. Now, the skaters tend to do a quick step to get to the inside edge - I'm not explaining this very well, but you see this type of lutz from a straight line entry.

Ah, you're right! The outside edge is what makes it counter-rotated.

Going back to the idea of combining lutz and flip into a single jump and giving bonus points (how many?) if you have a different take off edge to show you can do both variations, it's an idea that could work well enough. I understand that being good at both jumps is not necessarily the most important aspect when it comes to appreciating a skater and their performances, even if they lip or flutz all over the place. But I do think that combining them into one single jump would just be brushing off problems of technique, because mastering the different edge takeoffs, I think, shows a skater who has done their best to develop good technique on these jumps.

Granted, not being a skater and having never been in an ice rink in my life, I really can't grasp how hard it may be for skaters to develop both a good outside and inside edge on their jumps and switching easily between both.

 

[Ender]

Ah, you're right! The outside edge is what makes it counter-rotated.

Going back to the idea of combining lutz and flip into a single jump and giving bonus points (how many?) if you have a different take off edge to show you can do both variations, it's an idea that could work well enough. I understand that being good at both jumps is not necessarily the most important aspect when it comes to appreciating a skater and their performances, even if they lip or flutz all over the place. But I do think that combining them into one single jump would just be brushing off problems of technique, because mastering the different edge takeoffs, I think, shows a skater who has done their best to develop good technique on these jumps.

Granted, not being a skater and having never been in an ice rink in my life, I really can't grasp how hard it may be for skaters to develop both a good outside and inside edge on their jumps and switching easily between both.

Skaters can improve their lutz edge by practicing back outside crossrolls.

 

[Mathman]

Aren't jumps already defined as such?

By definition, a lutz takes off from an outside edge.

This is the position of the what I called the "edge purists." The other camp holds that there is more to a jump than just the take-off edge, although this "more" is not included in the one-line descriptions of jumps that appear in printed summaries.

But isn't the difference between a Lutz and a Flip more than just their takeoff edge? I thought the Lutz also had the particularity of being counter-rotated.

But the counter-rotation is achieved because the lutz takes off from an outside edge. If a "lutz" takes off from an inside edge, the element of counter-rotation does not exist.

GS poster GKelly (who skates herself) once gave an interesting explanation. If you glide in on an outward-curving outside edge, but then switch over to the inside edge at the last moment (a flutz), then you are guilty of "releasing the counter-rotation prematurely." Thus your jump is properly called a "failed Lutz" rather than a flip.

This is a source of constant debate not only by fans on the Internet but by the ISU. IIRC the latest announcement of the iSU council said that for now they will continue to call a flutz as a Lutz, but the base value is reduced. (Earlier the issue was just handled in GOE). But by the next time the Council meets they would consider going to calling the jumps strictly by the take-off edge and nothing else. I believe that both sides have their supporters among the ex-skaters and officials that have input to the ISU and its Technical Committee.

I like the old-school lutz where the jump proceeded from a long clearly-defined curving outside edge. Now, the skaters tend to do a quick step to get to the inside edge - I'm not explaining this very well, but you see this type of lutz from a straight line entry.

Skaters don't switch edges on purpose, though. There are two different standard Lutz take-offs, the short one and the long one, both on proper outside edges. Michelle Kwan deliberately changed her Lutz take-off (from long to short) in mid-career. (Although she had trouble holding the edge with either approach.)

I agree that the long straight glide into the jump looked really cool. I think that the reason most sakters use a shorter set-up now is to avoid "telegraphing" and also to save time to squeeze in more point-grabbing transitions.

 

[dorispulaski]

YouTube videos: u818 's channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/unimagine818

He has a lot!

Keegan' s new programs are great! IMO

 

[4everchan]

YouTube videos: u818 's channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/unimagine818

He has a lot!

Keegan' s new programs are great! IMO

i agree about Keegan.

In my pre-season books he is Canada's number 2.... of course, we haven't seen anyone else but I feel it's his year.

 

[TontoK]

Thanks, Mathman, for you post.

I suppose I'm an edge purist, especially in regard to the lutz.

It's a difficult jump, and the edge and counter-rotation is what makes it difficult.

For me, it is simple. Skaters who properly perform the jump deserve points. Skaters who don't properly perform the jump, don't deserve points. As you point out, ISU is taking some steps to address this issue more boldly. I wish they'd be more aggressive with the remedy.

Less frequently discussed: those skaters who slide their edge to outside on so-called flips (pretend flips). Gracie Gold, whom I like in all other respects, is a skater who has frequently done this in the past. I hope she has worked on proper technique for the jump on the off-season.

I suppose there are footwork purists, too. I confess I'm with them in spirit, but much more at the mercy of the tech caller, since I can't count or keep up with all the requirements for L3 vs L4 steps. I'm a bit better on spins, but not much, at least in real time.

 

[Mathman]

Yeah, I agree on the footwork. It's hard to keep track of what percentage of the time the skater is turning in the other direction, and so on.

Here is one problem with simply saying, a Lutz is a Lutz and a flip is a flip. One principal in sports is that an athlete should never be rewarded for messing up or from violating the rules. Suppose a skater plans a triple Lutz in her program, she trains a triple Lutz, she does everything in her power to stay on the outside edge to the bitter end -- but then turns the edge over on take-off. The way the rules are now she will get a base value of 3.6 for the failed attempt at a Lutz.

But if the jump were simply called a flip, she would get 5.3 points for doing a flip. She gains an extra 1.7 points by the strict calling.

For "pretend flips" (lips ) its even worse. If you call a pretend flip a Lutz, the skater gains extra points for doing the harder jump by lucky accident and not getting an edge call.

An aside: I don't know if this is really true or not, but it seems to me that many, many, many ladies flutz their Lutz, but not many lip their flip. For men, it seems the opposite -- if a man gets an edge call it is more likely on the flip. I don't have a theory about why this is the case -- maybe men have thicker ankles than ladies or something. Most men can get way, way over on a secure outside Lutz edge, but the inside edge is much shallower on a properly done flip, so it's easier to make a mistake. (?) (It's also easier to get away with under-rotation on a flip than on a Lutz, I think.) I am far from an expert about all this.

 

[chameleon]

On the other hand, calling an outside edge jump a lutz regardless of intent(or vice versa) would likely lead to invalid jumps, especially in the free, yes? Which would cost you more points than simply getting an edge call.

 

[xeyra]

On the other hand, calling an outside edge jump a lutz regardless of intent(or vice versa) would likely lead to invalid jumps, especially in the free, yes? Which would cost you more points than simply getting an edge call.

I guess this is why there are those who call for a merging of the two jumps.

 

[Mathman]

On the other hand, calling an outside edge jump a lutz regardless of intent (or vice versa) would likely lead to invalid jumps, especially in the free, yes? Which would cost you more points than simply getting an edge call.

To maximize points now a top lady ought to do two Lutz' and two flips. That's four out of her six non-Axel jumps right there. I think this is already a little out of balance. If the ISU tightened up the rules, a skater with a shaky Lutz would be better off substituting in a couple of edge jumps like a loop and a Salchow. This would essentially say, don't try a Lutz unless you have mastered it, if you also intend two flips. I agree that this is an argument in favor of calling the edge more strictly. The true Lutzer would have an advantage in points, and the lady whose Lutz is questionable can still be competitive with a less ambitious layout.

I guess this is why there are those who call for a merging of the two jumps.

Merging the two jumps would eliminate all the controversy over edge calls. But as attractive as that feature may be, I don't think the plan will ever fly with the ISU. I think it is essentially giving up and saying, "these girls can't do a proper Lutz anyway, so we might as well give them credit for what they can[/] do."

To me, all things considered, I am OK with the current ISU regulations. Recognize that a bona fide Lutz attempt is not a flip, but penalize the skater for an improper take-off. This puts a burden on the technical specialists, but that's why they get the big bucks. (Or are they volunteers? )

 

[karne]

^ Merging the two jumps is also a thorough disadvantage and an absolute insult against those who have put in the hard work and effort to develop proper technique.

 

[xeyra]

^ Merging the two jumps is also a thorough disadvantage and an absolute insult against those who have put in the hard work and effort to develop proper technique.

I do agree. I think the idea of merging the two jumps is just brushing off the problem. I think the current system is fine, but there needs to be consistency in tech panels.

Merging the two jumps would equalize the field a lot more, though, because you'd only be able to do 2 of the jumps total. So we might see more quads/3As in ladies. And more quad Lutzlip in the men. Would definitely lower Nathan Chen's (or Vincent's) quad number since they'd never be able to do 7 quads ever... so it won't happen.

Unless they changed the Zayak rules, which they would probably have to do to accommodate this kind of huge change.

 

[Ender]

I do agree. I think the idea of merging the two jumps is just brushing off the problem. I think the current system is fine, but there needs to be consistency in tech panels.

Merging the two jumps would equalize the field a lot more, though, because you'd only be able to do 2 of the jumps total. So we might see more quads/3As in ladies. And more quad Lutzlip in the men. Would definitely lower Nathan Chen's (or Vincent's) quad number since they'd never be able to do 7 quads ever... so it won't happen.

Unless they changed the Zayak rules, which they would probably have to do to accommodate this kind of huge change.

With the Flip technique, skaters should shift the weight from the supporting leg to the pick up side. Even if there is wrong edge in there, if I can see the slightest weight transfer, I can tell the person is trying for the Flip.
With the Lutz, the upper body give a more counter feeling even if it's wrong edge. But apparently there have been some cases it's merging. I think the attention to the Flip and Lutz is stressed too much on the edge even though it's the vital point.

 

[Mathman]

^ Merging the two jumps is also a thorough disadvantage and an absolute insult against those who have put in the hard work and effort to develop proper technique.

To meet this objection there would have to be a big bonus for doing one of each kind in the combined category. Like a huge bonus.

I do agree. I think the idea of merging the two jumps is just brushing off the problem. I think the current system is fine, but there needs to be consistency in tech panels.

Merging the two jumps would equalize the field a lot more, though, because you'd only be able to do 2 of the jumps total. So we might see more quads/3As in ladies...

It looks like the ladies quad/3Axel era is upon us anyway. In a couple of years they will be making fun of men who can do only 4T and 4S by saying, "You skate like a girl."

 

[TontoK]

So, here's my smart-butt analysis of this discussion:

If we're going to call a "lutz" with an inside edge a "failed lutz" because it is clear that is what the skater intended in the set-up...

And we're going to call a "flip" with an outside edge a "failed flip" because is is clear that is what the skater intended in the set-up...

Then...

We should called popped jumps "failed quads" because that is what the skater intended. It's right there on the list of planned content. He didn't INTEND to double that jump, and surely that is worthy of consideration.