2018-19 U.S. Men’s figure skating

[oatmella]

Seems that even with the new scoring, quads still matter a lot. They don’t really seem to matter all that much less than before, considering the wider range of GOE. The guys who can rotate/land their quads are still at a significant advantage - like before.

I had thought that the new scoring would be really favorable to a skater like Jason. But he will still need a quad to be competitive with the very top - which I understand he is working on.

I am not sure Alex has any solid quads yet, so having 4 of them over two programs would be pretty tough. But hope he continues to recover well and can eventually increase his technical difficulty. A good start for him so far on the GP though!

Raf has said that about Nathan before - that ‘he’s a competitor’

 

[karne]

Vincent was injured at Worlds and in quite a lot of pain ...

Seems a bit unfair to use that as an example of his UR problem

Fine. Even if you take out Worlds because it's "unfair" (funny, I seem to recall Vincent's fans piling on Jason after Nationals 2017 and saying "being injured isn't an excuse!" or "if he's injured he shouldn't go!"), he still got called for four at US Nationals (you know, the event renowned for its marshmallow calling) and was also called out for multiple before two different international panels on the GP. Not entirely sure how that shows "improvement through the season".

 

[Mrs. P]

I had thought that the new scoring would be really favorable to a skater like Jason. But he will still need a quad to be competitive with the very top - which I understand he is working on.

I think we haven't seen Jason fully benefit from the new scoring system cause he hasn't been squeaky clean with ANY program so far this season, which is kind of a weird novelty considering his past record. But obviously with all the changes, all bets are off at this point.

The closest we got was his Autumn Classic SP, where he scored almost 89 points despite a StSq3 and a UR 3T. And consider that his SP at Skate Canada with a UR 3A and a 3Z-2T (i.e. pop) combo is still higher than what any other U.S. man not named Nathan has scored this season (he did get level 4 in the StSq and all level 4 spins).

What has and will help Jason is that the tech panel and judges are being FAR more stingy on spin and step levels and +GOE. It's not that many points difference relative to how much you can get for a quad, but it doesn't hurt. (And even Jason himself has gotten level 3! That's how stingy they're being LOL).

Jason definitely needs a quads (more than one) to catch-up with Nathan (i.e. win U.S. Nationals) or to get on the World podium at this point. And obviously it remains to be seen whether he can make that happen. But if he can get his improved 3A and his other jumps looking good in competition and keep with his usually strong non-jump elements, he can probably do enough to get on the World team or even edge out somebody for No. 2. I don't think Vincent isn't an absolute lock for No. 2 if he continues to get UR calls.

Jason and Vincent had a similar injury handicap, though Jason resumed jumping sooner (basically some easier triple jumps by early June then the Axel and the rest by July). They scored nearly the same in the SP at their respective GP events, Jason scored 9+ points higher in the FS -- Jason scored a bit higher in TES (about 1.25 points) but basically his PCS is considerably higher. (almost 8 points). Will Vincent get rotated enough jumps sooner than Jason gains some consistency on his new jump technique and perhaps finally get the 4S? We'll see.

Of course, the young ones can totally play spoiler, namely Alex K, Camden, Tomoki and Andrew. But the scores don't indicate that will be happening just yet.

Fine. Even if you take out Worlds because it's "unfair" (funny, I seem to recall Vincent's fans piling on Jason after Nationals 2017 and saying "being injured isn't an excuse!" or "if he's injured he shouldn't go!"), he still got called for four at US Nationals (you know, the event renowned for its marshmallow calling) and was also called out for multiple before two different international panels on the GP. Not entirely sure how that shows "improvement through the season".

Recalling that discussion (golly it was a long winded one that went through multiple threads and multiple months ), I think the criticisms were aimed more at USFS (not Jason) for choosing Jason to be on the World team when it wasn't entirely clear whether he would recover from his injury. I don't think they were all necessarily Vincent fans.

 

[ice coverage]

I would add that "injury is no excuse" also was repeatedly used against Vincent -- by some who thought that Vincent automatically should be ineligible for the 2017 Worlds team because he did not already have senior TES minimums before Nats and who were unwilling to take into consideration that Vincent was injured at the time of his pre-Nats Challenger competition.

---

Fun fact re NHK:

U.S. men are choreographers for programs by two U.S. ladies at NHK. Jordan Moeller for Courtney Hicks, and Adam for Mariah. Cool for all concerned. ​

Hope Alex Johnson has a blast at his GP debut. :hap85:

Good luck to Vincent and Alex. :yay:

 

[Skater Boy]

Seems that even with the new scoring, quads still matter a lot. They don’t really seem to matter all that much less than before, considering the wider range of GOE. The guys who can rotate/land their quads are still at a significant advantage - like before.

I had thought that the new scoring would be really favorable to a skater like Jason. But he will still need a quad to be competitive with the very top - which I understand he is working on.

I am not sure Alex has any solid quads yet, so having 4 of them over two programs would be pretty tough. But hope he continues to recover well and can eventually increase his technical difficulty. A good start for him so far on the GP though!

Raf has said that about Nathan before - that ‘he’s a competitor’

Jason has been working on the quad for a couple of seasons. It took Chan a while to learn so Jason still might do it. He has less pressure now with the arrival of Chen and Zhou and Ma.. There are greater expectations on others so not as mch pressure. Still it has been a while. Already the pcs are starting to favor Nathan.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Jason has been working on the quad for a couple of seasons. It took Chan a while to learn so Jason still might do it. He has less pressure now with the arrival of Chen and Zhou and Ma.. There are greater expectations on others so not as mch pressure. Still it has been a while. Already the pcs are starting to favor Nathan.

Even if Jason doesn't get the quad, he can still be the steady World team member who can give us a top 10 finish with well-executed triples and great PCS. I'd hate to see him lose his consistency in the triples by obsessing over the quad.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Seems that even with the new scoring, quads still matter a lot. They don’t really seem to matter all that much less than before, considering the wider range of GOE. The guys who can rotate/land their quads are still at a significant advantage - like before.

I had thought that the new scoring would be really favorable to a skater like Jason. But he will still need a quad to be competitive with the very top - which I understand he is working on.

I am not sure Alex has any solid quads yet, so having 4 of them over two programs would be pretty tough. But hope he continues to recover well and can eventually increase his technical difficulty. A good start for him so far on the GP though!

Raf has said that about Nathan before - that ‘he’s a competitor’

The problem with Jason is that he needs to be absolutely clean on everything to make up for the lack of a quad, but his 3A has been dicey this season and he's made some other silly errors uncharacteristic for him. He's still getting excellent scores on his other elements but he needs to land the big ticket elements cleanly.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Fine. Even if you take out Worlds because it's "unfair" (funny, I seem to recall Vincent's fans piling on Jason after Nationals 2017 and saying "being injured isn't an excuse!" or "if he's injured he shouldn't go!"), he still got called for four at US Nationals (you know, the event renowned for its marshmallow calling) and was also called out for multiple before two different international panels on the GP. Not entirely sure how that shows "improvement through the season".

Vincent got his personal best SP (96.78) in the last event of the season and his personal best FS (192.16) in the second last event of the season -- both high pressure events. He was 9th at a GP event (TdF), and then 6th at the Olympics. Pretty sure that shows improvement throughout the season.

Not to mention (AFAIK) both scores are the second highest ever international SP and FS for any of the US men in the old IJS, behind Chen.

Heck, most of the US men haven't cleared a 90+ SP or 180+ FS throughout their entire careers -- and Vincent did both in his debut season.

 

[Tavi...]

The problem with Jason is that he needs to be absolutely clean on everything to make up for the lack of a quad, but his 3A has been dicey this season and he's made some other silly errors uncharacteristic for him. He's still getting excellent scores on his other elements but he needs to land the big ticket elements cleanly.

Maybe give him some time? He has said several times that he’s struggling between his new and old ways of doing things. His 3A, when he gets it these days, looks great.

 

[hippomoomin]

Vincent has just turned 18 (Oct 25) and he has already achieved a lot, considering he missed a season due to injury in the middle of his junior years.
I believe skaters of his age is still growing taller, so he probably has been dealing with a growth spurt. I hope he stays healthy and keeps on improving because I prefer to watch male skaters with long lines.

 

[Jaana]

Jason has been working on the quad for a couple of seasons. It took Chan a while to learn so Jason still might do it. He has less pressure now with the arrival of Chen and Zhou and Ma.. There are greater expectations on others so not as mch pressure. Still it has been a while. Already the pcs are starting to favor Nathan.

Chan had a successful quad at the age of 20:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/wc2011_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

He was born in Dec. 1990, so at WC 2011 he must have been only 20, right? Brown will be 24 next month, I believe and surely he must have been working on the quad much, much longer than a couple of seasons. During a couple of seasons he has attempted to jump a quad at competitions. Of course everything is possible and miracles do happen sometimes...

 

[Srin Odessa]

Chan had a successful quad at the age of 20:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/wc2011_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

He was born in Dec. 1990, so at WC 2011 he must have been only 20, right? Brown will be 24 next month, I believe and surely he must have been working on the quad much, much longer than a couple of seasons. During a couple of seasons he has attempted to jump a quad at competitions. Of course everything is possible and miracles do happen sometimes...

Patrick wanted to have a quad ready for the 2009-2010 Olympic season. However, his calf injury threw a wrench at that plan.

 

[Mrs. P]

Chan had a successful quad at the age of 20:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2011/wc2011_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

He was born in Dec. 1990, so at WC 2011 he must have been only 20, right? Brown will be 24 next month, I believe and surely he must have been working on the quad much, much longer than a couple of seasons. During a couple of seasons he has attempted to jump a quad at competitions. Of course everything is possible and miracles do happen sometimes...

Jason has been working on the quad for a couple of seasons. It took Chan a while to learn so Jason still might do it. He has less pressure now with the arrival of Chen and Zhou and Ma.. There are greater expectations on others so not as mch pressure. Still it has been a while. Already the pcs are starting to favor Nathan.

Michal Brezina, age 28, medaling at both GP events and pretty much making GPF (which would only his second after making his first one way back in 2011 -- oh hey, remember that was the year skaters could do 3 GP events, LOL what a time to be around as a fan where you could see your favorites on the GP three times!) after not even getting on the podium in four years. Full stop.

That doesn't mean, however, Jason will end up having the same revival. Nothing is certain, of course. But Jason's certain trying and has made some major big changes to make it happen. So if he gets any quad, it has nothing to do with miracles. Nor is it because he's going with some arbitrary age timeline. I honestly think it's a bit much to predict one skater's trajectory based on another. Every skater is different and each one has their strengths and weaknesses.

But let's talk about where Jason is now. He isn't world podium material yet. He hasn't even gotten onto a single podium the season, which is really crazy. We'll see what happens at IdF, but if he doesn't end up on the podium, it will be the first time in his senior international career that he hasn't medaled during the Challenger/GP season - -he even managed to pull that off in 2015-2016, when his season was cut short due to his back injury and the following season, when he had his fracture.

There's a possibility Jason will be sent to Golden Spin -- and I think it's a very good possibility. USFS tends to send its top caliber skaters who don't end up making the GPF to that competition. USFS is sending Vincent to Tallinn Trophy a few weeks after NHK, so it's clear USFS wants to give their top men more of an opportunity to gain feedback and experience.

The problem with Jason is that he needs to be absolutely clean on everything to make up for the lack of a quad, but his 3A has been dicey this season and he's made some other silly errors uncharacteristic for him. He's still getting excellent scores on his other elements but he needs to land the big ticket elements cleanly.

It's a new time, CSG. Jason's training under a completely different team with a different trainig regime. Yes, the lack of consistency is jarring for all of us who are used to him being consistent, but he just doesn't have the muscle memory for the new technique yet. He's said himself that he gets caught between the old and new technique.

I saw this with Skate Canada. His 3A looked great, probably the best I've seen them live --I've had the opportunity to see him live over a good time span -2014 Nationals/2016 Team Challenge Cup/2018 Nationals -- so I can make some good comparisons. He did not miss any attempt between the Thursday afternoon practice and the Friday morning warm-up. The 3A miss in the SP, was literally the only missed attempt -- and you can see at that moment the old 3A technique kicked in. So annoying for him, I'd imagine.

I will say, and people will laugh cause it's just a triple , but his 3F is money, especially in the SP. The +GOE he can get on that jump is really good -- on average between ACI/SCI -- he average GOE was 2.22; This is where you see Jason, right now, working the +5 system pretty well. Again it's no replacement for a quad, of course, but it helps him stay relatively in earshot while his consistency goes MIA on some of the big ticket stuff. Consider that if you put all the senior U.S. men's scores from every event (JGP/Challenger/GP). Jason's 11th place SP at Skate Canada still ranks 5th (Behind Chen, Jason's SP at ACI, Camden Pulkinen's SP at his second JGP and Tomoki Hiwtashi's SP at his first JGP) among 19 SP scores from 11 men.

Again, he needs to do FAR more to get anywhere to the top men, but he's not in absolute dire straits among the U.S. men's field, for now.

Even if Jason doesn't get the quad, he can still be the steady World team member who can give us a top 10 finish with well-executed triples and great PCS. I'd hate to see him lose his consistency in the triples by obsessing over the quad.

I guess the question is whether Jason is happy to be in that position. I don't think you make a wholesale change and totally relocate to a new country and coaching team to settle for what you had before. If you read some of the recent articles on him, it's clear that he wants far more for himself, including getting that quad. I guess you can call it obsession; I think it's simply a desire to achieve more.

Also he's been national champ before. While his publicly stated goal is to just get back on the World team, I don't think he wants to stay No. 3 behind Vincent/Nathan or whoever for the next four years either.

 

[oatmella]

Interview with Alex K: https://www.inthelopodcast.com/news/2018/11/06/episode-16-bonus-transcript

On his new coaches/going back to Russian training, and how long he was training before Helsinki:
‘I think that for me, I was very happy to switch coaches because I wanted something different. I think that Peter and Darlene [Cain] are great, but unfortunately, I wanted to be somewhere else, and so for me, what was different is that I came back to the Russian way of training, the Russian technique. And I think I really like it because for me, what Olga and Alexei have done as of right now is a lot, because I started training very recently, and I say six weeks. For me, in six weeks do what I’m able of doing right now is a very, very good result, and I think not only do they kind of guide me through jumps, but they also help me guide for my adulthood, as I'm becoming an adult, and I start living on my own, and it really helped me kind of figure out how to train, how to handle myself, and really help me pace myself to be on the right path to success.’

Getting his jumps back and his goals:
‘So for me, I had to recover my jumps, I have to get them back to a consistent level, and then I had to learn the quad, so I think for me, the biggest goal, especially for this season and long-term, is learn as many quads as I can while staying injury-free, and also working on incorporating good choreography, good transitions, and stepping up my program components, and incorporating that with quads together.’

On quads:
‘So as far [for] the quads, it’s really getting close. I’ve fallen a couple of clean ones, I learned a couple of you know, I land most of them at 70%. It’s always the loop, but I don’t really practice the loop that much because of my foot, and it kind of stops me from that because I also have to practice my combos, flip, and whenever I do a quad loop, it kind of irritates my foot. Not so much pain, but my foot just can’t at the moment. It can’t handle that much of pressure. So we’re kind of working on a triple loop and kind of getting it more up in the air and preparing for the quad. As far as the quad, I’ve been very careful with that, so we’ve tried a couple of times, and it’s been very good, but you know, Alexei and Olga want to make sure that we’re staying with the plan for the injury, so I have no pain.’

On 4T:
‘That’s been kind of a discussion, which is really fun, because Alexei and Olga, they’re like - Alexei was like, “quad toe is very easy, everyone does it.” And I start doing my triple toe, and he goes, “oh you can do it, easy”, but for some reason, I am scared of the quad toe. So I tried it a couple of times, and it was very good, and I’m like, okay, I can actually do it, and he puts me on the pole harness or something like that, and now they’re clean, and then I go do it on my own, and he goes, “when you’re scared, you can’t do it,” but I’m like, I don’t know, there’s something about this jump, so maybe if I can get over that and trust myself to do it, maybe quad toe would be my new element, and nobody would think that I would do it.’

On the new scoring:
‘I think that the rules, everything, it's kind of like some people don't like it, some people like the new rules, but to me, it's very interesting because it really, really changed the sport. So now that we’re looking into this, it's much much easier to lose, and it really comes down to you cannot fall, and you cannot make mistakes ...
So you can either go safe - with the new system, you can either go safe and always be ready to beat somebody who possibly could fall, or you can try stuff and kind of catch up, and once you can do that, you'll be unbeatable. So I think that this system opens the possibilities for some of the skaters.’

 

[champs]

Thanks for the article link, oatmella. I have always wished to know anything about the coaching team of Letov and Ganicheva, so that was a nice read. I hope Alexei will soon overcome whatever about the toe loop jump that has mentally bothered him and whatever about 4Lo that physically bothers him right now.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I guess the question is whether Jason is happy to be in that position. I don't think you make a wholesale change and totally relocate to a new country and coaching team to settle for what you had before. If you read some of the recent articles on him, it's clear that he wants far more for himself, including getting that quad. I guess you can call it obsession; I think it's simply a desire to achieve more.

Also he's been national champ before. While his publicly stated goal is to just get back on the World team, I don't think he wants to stay No. 3 behind Vincent/Nathan or whoever for the next four years either.

Obviously I'm not in Jason's shoes, but I don't think there's anything wrong with being the second or third American behind Nathan. There are Olympic team medals, Worlds participation, invitations to events like Japan Open, opportunities like DWTS, etc. for top American skaters. With the new GOE scale, it's also increasingly possible that someone with rock-solid triples could sneak onto a big podium.

 

[Tavi...]

Obviously I'm not in Jason's shoes, but I don't think there's anything wrong with being the second or third American behind Nathan. There are Olympic team medals, Worlds participation, invitations to events like Japan Open, opportunities like DWTS, etc. for top American skaters. With the new GOE scale, it's also increasingly possible that someone with rock-solid triples could sneak onto a big podium.

I think if you’re an intrinsically motivated, highly competitive person, and you believe you haven’t achieved everything you’re capable of technically or artistically, you will want to push beyond where you’re at.

Jason has already done a lot of what you’re talking about - he’s been National champion, medaled on the GP every year since 2013-2014 when he turned senior (except this year, so far), been in the last warmup group at the Olympics, been 4th at Worlds, won bronze at 4CCs and he still holds the record for the highest quadless SP program score ever.

While I’m sure he is and always will be thrilled to represent the US in international competition- he said that he changed coaching teams because he believes he’s capable of, and wants, more.

 

[century2009]

Is TomZ just oblivious to Vincent major problem?

Is he blind during training? And I am being serious because it would explain a lot.

If we can see it for this event, cant he not dee this often during training?

It looks like the judges are not having it with Vincent, but those jumps are unrrotated. He really should switch coucomm

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Is TomZ just oblivious to Vincent major problem?

Is he blind during training? And I am being serious because it would explain a lot.

If we can see it for this event, cant he not dee this often during training?

It looks like the judges are not having it with Vincent, but those jumps are unrrotated. He really should switch coucomm

I agree, and I think that Vincent's team needs to reevaluate the number of different quads he's training. His technical score would have only been 5th best in the women's event, despite skating a clean-looking program.

 

[moonvine]

But he's working on quads (and even triples) with new technique, so it's not the same way he's been doing it for the last two years. His 3A looked really good in practices, and the only time he missed it was in his SP and in popping the second 3A combo into combo.

https://vimeo.com/297801848

As to being sick of waiting, judges should judge what he actually does on a given day. Under that logic, judges should have given up on many other skaters who took "longer" to get it together.

It's worth noting that as of right now, Jason still has the second highest overall score among the U.S, men at the moment. In the context of U.S. men, there are lots of men who can vie for three world spots (and last year is a big lesson that nothing is guaranteed) but Jason definitely still has a good shot to get there.

I think I am confused. Didn't he have rock solid technique on the 3A in the past? If so, why is he relearning it?