2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating

[Orlov]

See the ISU Constitution & General Regulations, rule 123, 4.A.

You can download the document here:
https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/rules-regulations/isu-statutes-constitution-regulations-technical

Basically, for this kind of error, any protest by the skater/coach/team leader would need to be made before the medal ceremony; otherwise the initial call stands.

If I understand the wording correctly, this kind of error counts as a field of play decision that is not subject to an official protest. But if the referee learns before the medal ceremony that such an error had been made, the ref can correct the error.

(Protests against incorrect mathematical calculation may be filed until 24 hours after the completion of the competition and results can be changed up to a day afterward for calculation errors.)

Thanks for clarification!

I was always interested - do trainers and athletes have access to detailed information even before the publication of the protocols? If so, where exactly are they looking? Otherwise, it may be kind of catch-22: you can protest only before the ceremony, but detailed information after ceremony

 

[gkelly]

Does this ever happen, now that the math is done by computer and the software comes directly from the ISU?

There are two corrections of calculation errors currently searchable on the ISU website:
https://isu.org/isu-news/news/80-in...dGlvbiIsImNvcnJlY3Rpb24iXQ==&templateParam=15

And at the bottom of this article about the Rhythm Dance at the just-concluded Skate America:
https://isu.org/figure-skating/news...cyIsInNrYXRlIGFtZXJpY2EiXQ==&templateParam=15

(I also seem to remember an example or two from late 6.0 days when international competitions held in the US should have been using OBO competitions but accidentally used the majority calculation program instead, which was still what the US still used for domestic competitions. I guess they sent the wrong software to the international.)

I have seen a couple of instances where the technical specialist just outright flubbed the call, calling an element that was not what the skater actually did. These are usually caught and corrected the next day. (I think there was one instance of this between the short and the long program at a major competition?)

I think the rule that the correction has to be initiated before the medal ceremony, or before the draw for the freeskate if the error was in the short program/rhythm dance, would still apply. But it might take until afterward to confirm the correction and then publicize it. I only know what I read.

I am still shocked that the error made it through both the initial scoring process and the post-event, pre-awards review without being detected. I do not agree with the rule, but at least we know that it cannot be amended at this point. I wonder if this could be related to the software issues the ISU has been having. It wouldn't surprise me given the inconsistencies in the TV graphics, live results, and in-arena score announcements during Skate America.

Possibly. I don't know what those problems were specifically.
Or it could be a mistake by the tech panel: either the TS saw a double and intentionally called it as such, or made a slip of the tongue, and neither the ATS nor controller questioned that call; the element may not have been reviewed. Or maybe the data operator accidentally entered the wrong element and it wasn't caught when they read back the list of elements before or immediately after authorizing the elements.

There's also an open question on how this would affect the element's GOE. Even if the mistake was caught and the element changed to 3Lz+3T<, wouldn't the judges have to be given the opportunity to revise (presumably lower) their GOE on the element?

If it had been caught during reviews or readback, the code would have changed on the judges' screens and they could have

I don't know how it would be handled if an error were caught after that skater's scores had been finalized, whether during the next skater or right before the medal ceremony or any time in between.

I was always interested - do trainers and athletes have access to detailed information even before the publication of the protocols? If so, where exactly are they looking? Otherwise, it may be kind of catch-22: you can protest only before the ceremony, but detailed information after ceremony

Good question! I don't know.

 

[rlopen]

Does this ever happen, now that the math is done by computer and the software comes directly from the ISU?

The only time I remember a controversy about this was when Evan Lysacek and Johnny Weir got exact tied scores at U.S. Nationals, up to the last hundredth of a point. It developed afterward that the software that calculated the points used a different rounding convention from the wording in the ISU rules. If I remember correctly, nothing was done about that competition but they did make the appropriate correction for the future.

I have seen a couple of instances where the technical specialist just outright flubbed the call, calling an element that was not what the skater actually did. These are usually caught and corrected the next day. (I think there was one instance of this between the short and the long program at a major competition?)

I don’t remember an element itself being called wrong, but I remember Tursynbaeva at the 2018 Olympics with her combination in the short originally not getting the bonus but then upon further review after the fact she was given the bonus. I don’t think any chance in the SP standings had to be made.

 

[medoroa]

Does this ever happen, now that the math is done by computer and the software comes directly from the ISU?

There was that time at Japanese nationals where Oda won because he did one jumping pass too many, but the software didn't recognize it as an invalid element so he got too many points. It was corrected by human hands and Takahashi won instead, as I recall. I don't think the software still makes that particular mistake, but software does have bugs.

 

[ice coverage]

According to the TES thread, she has high enough TES to qualify for 2020 Worlds (likely achieved last year).
That wouldn’t be good enough for 2020 Nationals?

Oh, you might be right. I thought the qualifying score for Nationals had to be from this season, but that's probably wrong.

The qualifying TES for U.S. Nats must be from the current season.

 

[natsulian]

According to the ISU, they began implementing new changes to the system mid-season. They did testing last week and everything worked fine. However, there were some glitches and errors that occurred during Skate America. Hopefully everything is fixed by Skate Canada. Speaking of Skate Canada, Bradie faces off against Rika, Alexandra, Evgenia, and Young You. It’s one of the more competitive fields. Next week, Mariah Bell and Starr Andrews will compete in France.

 

[Moxiejan]

The qualifying TES for U.S. Nats must be from the current season.

Thanks for the info! So theoretically it’s possible for skaters to make the top 4 at sectionals (or even win it) and not make it to nationals.

 

[concorde]

Thanks for the info! So theoretically it’s possible for skaters to make the top 4 at sectionals (or even win it) and not make it to nationals.

Let's us supposed that only 3 of the Skaters at x Sectionals makes the minimum but 5 Skaters at y Sectionals do, does the "fill up" rule apply?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Thanks for the info! So theoretically it’s possible for skaters to make the top 4 at sectionals (or even win it) and not make it to nationals.

Possibly. Looking back at some of the Regionals events, the number of ladies earning 75+ TES was:
South Atlantic - 2
Eastern Great Lakes - 0
NW Pacific - 0
SW - 1
SW Pacific - 2

I think the bar that USFSA has set is a bit too high.

 

[skatergurl7]

Possibly. Looking back at some of the Regionals events, the number of ladies earning 75+ TES was:
South Atlantic - 2
Eastern Great Lakes - 0
NW Pacific - 0
SW - 1
SW Pacific - 2

I think the bar that USFSA has set is a bit too high.

Not really, if the US wants to win medals internationally there needs to be a high bar to push the young ones.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Not really, if the US wants to win medals internationally there needs to be a high bar to push the young ones.

There is a variety of talent levels at Nationals. Most who make it through sectionals won't be competitive internationally with the top women anyway, whether or not they score 75+ TES in an event.

 

[just wondering]

Possibly. Looking back at some of the Regionals events, the number of ladies earning 75+ TES was:
South Atlantic - 2
Eastern Great Lakes - 0
NW Pacific - 0
SW - 1
SW Pacific - 2

I think the bar that USFSA has set is a bit too high.

Perhaps, but the real tell will be sectionals. Didn't many/several TES-eligible ladies have a bye through regionals due to NQS or an international assignment? A question I ask myself, if not TES 75, what number would be better, keeping in mind that it's a national level event? And also remembering that performances vary greatly at nationals due to individual responses to pressure. I recall a post some time ago listed several nationals skaters who would have achieved the TES at sectionals, but fell well below at nationals. Plus, 75 is just above the 74 world minimum.
Maybe it is too high, but I'm not sure I have a solid substitute and rational. (Not that anyone is asking me, of course. ;-) ) Simply musings . . ..

 

[sheetz]

I don't think the new TES requirement will make much difference, at least for ladies. Last year everyone who qualified for Nationals via Sectionals earned at least 75, except for Emmy Ma who did manage to earn it at Nationals.

The big difference will be for skaters who try to qualify thru international assignment byes (think Gracie or Karen). The new TES requirements would hopefully discourage another Rostelecom situation from happening.

 

[skatergurl7]

There is a variety of talent levels at Nationals. Most who make it through sectionals won't be competitive internationally with the top women anyway, whether or not they score 75+ TES in an event.

Maybe not but at least they have the technical content to push other girls internally too.

 

[concorde]

Let's us supposed that only 3 of the Skaters at x Sectionals makes the minimum but 5 Skaters at y Sectionals do, does the "fill up" rule apply?

Bumping my question.

 

[artika]

[QUOTE
Btw, can someone tell me whom or what is Bradie portraying in her SP?[/QUOTE]

Looks like jazz style choreography to me. Maybe Bob Fosse inspired...

 

[ice coverage]

Forgot to say earlier that Amber was a highlight of Skate America for me. :luv17:
Yes, room for improvement ... but I felt an aura of extra determination/fire/belief in herself beyond what I had sensed in the past. It made me very hopeful that this season will be her season. :yay:

Congratulations to Bradie , and good luck at Skate Canada.

Hugs to Karen.

---

Let's us supposed that only 3 of the Skaters at x Sectionals makes the minimum but 5 Skaters at y Sectionals do, does the "fill up" rule apply?

I am no expert, but per Rule 2504 from p. 133 of the USFS rulebook, seems that the answer would be No.

2504 Fill-up Rule: There will be no fill-ups to the U.S. Figure Skating Championships.

https://www.usfigureskating.org/content/2019-20 Rulebook.pdf (ginormous PDF)​

It comes immediately before Rule 2505, which is about the TES minimums.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

What would be the option for a skater who is one of the best in the country, such as Bradie or Alysa, but was injured for the entire season until Nationals? Are skaters who have any sort of bye exempt from the minimum score requirement if they were unable to compete during the season?

 

[just wondering]

What would be the option for a skater who is one of the best in the country, such as Bradie or Alysa, but was injured for the entire season until Nationals? Are skaters who have any sort of bye exempt from the minimum score requirement if they were unable to compete during the season?

Yes, a Top 5 bye, is just that. It's a bye TO nationals the following season. Theoretically, an athlete could sit at home, not compete all season, and still show up at the following nationals. At least that's my understanding.

 

[ice coverage]

What would be the option for a skater who is one of the best in the country, such as Bradie or Alysa, but was injured for the entire season until Nationals? Are skaters who have any sort of bye exempt from the minimum score requirement if they were unable to compete during the season?

Yes, a Top 5 bye, is just that. It's a bye TO nationals the following season. Theoretically, an athlete could sit at home, not compete all season, and still show up at the following nationals. At least that's my understanding.

Again, I am no expert, but I disagree with just wondering.

My understanding of the 2019-20 rulebook (p. 132) is that the minimum TES requirement applies even to those with byes (such as a bye from placing in the top five at the previous year's Nats).

Emphasis added to this excerpt from Rule 2501:

2501 Singles competitors qualify for the U.S. Figure Skating Championships: ...

B. For the senior events by meeting the minimum required technical score per rule 2505 and:

1. Placing in the top 4 in senior at their respective sectional singles final;
2. Earning a bye:

a. For placing in the top five in the same event at last year’s U.S. Figure Skating Championships; ...​

Also, see Rule 2513 on p. 133:

2513 No medical byes will be granted to the U.S. Figure Skating Championships.​