2019 US Nationals Senior Men's SP

[bobbob]

*perplexed expression*

Did we watch the same event?

The point is that their PCS shouldn't be about the same. Jason is superior to Nathan in every facet of the PCS mark. Even the international judges agree. And yet at US Nationals Nathan is ahead of Jason. Disgraceful.

International judges do not agree, their PCS comparisons this year were within the margin of error. Especially considering the fact that this was the first remotely clean short by Nathan this year, so his international PCS would go up.

Why do you say that "Jason is superior to Nathan in every facet of the PCS mark?". There is little evidence for this. Nathan without question has stronger skating skills. Look at his speed and control without having to do as many crossovers as Jason. Nathan has so much more complex transitions too. Just watch the programs side by side. Jason does have better posture/smoothness/flow, which is one aspect but Nathan has stronger speed/power/control/transitions. Nathan really feels the music too, Jason could be skating to anything. I agree both pale in comparison to Hanyu. But I would give the slight edge to Nathan, if anything.

Here's how I would score them
Nathan SS 9.25 TR 9.00 PE 9.50 CO 9.25 IN 9.25
Jason SS 8.75 TR 8.50 PE 9.50 CO 9.25 IN 9.00

 

[DSQ]

I've just opened it here: https://goldenskate.com/forum/showt...Nationals-Senior-Men-FS&p=2323585#post2323585

Sweet. Thank you.

 

[sowcow]

International judges do not agree, their PCS comparisons this year were within the margin of error. Especially considering the fact that this was the first remotely clean short by Nathan this year, so his international PCS would go up.

Why do you say that "Jason is superior to Nathan in every facet of the PCS mark?". There is little evidence for this. Nathan without question has stronger skating skills. Look at his speed and control without having to do as many crossovers as Jason. Nathan has so much more complex transitions too. Just watch the programs side by side. Jason does have better posture/smoothness/flow, which is one aspect but Nathan has stronger speed/power/control/transitions. Nathan really feels the music too, Jason could be skating to anything. I agree both pale in comparison to Hanyu. But I would give the slight edge to Nathan, if anything.

Here's how I would score them
Nathan SS 9.25 TR 9.00 PE 9.50 CO 9.25 IN 9.25
Jason SS 8.75 TR 8.50 PE 9.50 CO 9.25 IN 9.00

The problem is that the TES seems to drag the PCS 'corridor' along with it. In other words, the TES score seems to influence or push the PCS 'corridor' (or range of marks) higher or lower accordingly.

The TES and PCS should theoretically be judged independent from one another. But, TES scores have an obvious impact on the PCS scores.

As example: if a skater went out and performed their long program with the required spins, footwork, choreographic sequences and double jumps [and ALL program components received a '0' GOE]; and then re-skated the exact, identical program (performed with the same intensity and emotion) BUT with the ONLY difference being they performed all single jumps [and ALL program components also received a '0' GOE], in theory, the PCS scores should be identical for both performances. In theory!

But, in reality, we all know that the first program performance would be scored with much higher PCS scores than the 2nd! Therein lies the problem...

 

[bobbob]

The problem is that the TES seems to drag the PCS 'corridor' along with it. In other words, the TES score seems to influence or push the PCS 'corridor' (or range of marks) higher or lower accordingly.

The TES and PCS should theoretically be judged independent from one another. But, TES scores have an obvious impact on the PCS scores.

As example: if a skater went out and performed their long program with the required spins, footwork, choreographic sequences and double jumps [and ALL program components received a '0' GOE]; and then re-skated the exact, identical program (performed with the same intensity and emotion) BUT with the ONLY difference being they performed all single jumps [and ALL program components also received a '0' GOE], in theory, the PCS scores should be identical for both performances. In theory!

But, in reality, we all know that the first program performance would be scored with much higher PCS scores than the 2nd! Therein lies the problem...

Doing a double jump rather than a single (or a quad rather than a triple) requires you to gain more speed, and thus display a greater level of skating skill. Why can't Jason do a quad? One of the main reasons is that he doesn't generate enough speed across the ice. This has to do with his lacking skating skills and natural glide. So while the jump itself should not affect PCS, it is indicative of something else which does, and helps display strong skating skill and power.

 

[lzxnl]

Doing a double jump rather than a single (or a quad rather than a triple) requires you to gain more speed, and thus display a greater level of skating skill. Why can't Jason do a quad? One of the main reasons is that he doesn't generate enough speed across the ice. This has to do with his lacking skating skills and natural glide. So while the jump itself should not affect PCS, it is indicative of something else which does, and helps display strong skating skill and power.

At the same time, building up for a quad or quad combination takes a LOT of time. Nathan spends about 20 seconds at various times in his SP just doing crossovers for jumps. I see more than 40 seconds, maybe close to a minute in which he just does crossovers. I personally don't think that shows enough skating skills, transitions or musicality to warrant a 48 PCS.

 

[readernick]

The problem is that the TES seems to drag the PCS 'corridor' along with it. In other words, the TES score seems to influence or push the PCS 'corridor' (or range of marks) higher or lower accordingly.

The TES and PCS should theoretically be judged independent from one another. But, TES scores have an obvious impact on the PCS scores.

As example: if a skater went out and performed their long program with the required spins, footwork, choreographic sequences and double jumps [and ALL program components received a '0' GOE]; and then re-skated the exact, identical program (performed with the same intensity and emotion) BUT with the ONLY difference being they performed all single jumps [and ALL program components also received a '0' GOE], in theory, the PCS scores should be identical for both performances. In theory!

But, in reality, we all know that the first program performance would be scored with much higher PCS scores than the 2nd! Therein lies the problem...

This is why I think there should be seperate judging panels for PCS and TES. Frankly, it is too hard for a judge to evaluate both fairly in the time they are given so they just go with emotion. Right now, there is not enough differentiation between PCS categories. I think having a seperate judging panel would help but I imagine that would be too expensive for the ISU.

In terms of Jason vs Nathan, everyone agrees who has the best SS ( including international judges) with the exception of one very loud poster but everyone has a right to their own opinion. Maybe best to let the subject drop!