2020 Peggy Fleming Trophy contingency plan as "virtual" competition

[Mrs. P]

I am afraid I do not understand this particular point.

Jason ends Schindler's List in a crouch on the ice. He ends "Melancholy" (at least this version) staring up at the sky. Now, both are "sad" endings I guess, but they are different positions. I also highly doubt Rohene is looking to David Wilson for choreo, but you never know

If anything, I thought Andrew T.'s ending pose, in a crouch on the ice, was too reminiscent of Jason's Schindlers.

I think Skatesocs means that Jason used the spiral sequence from Schindler's List for the ending. And yes the element itself is the same-- as in he does the spiral and the knee slide. But I think it worked with the music. YMMV. I mean Starr Andrews specifically picked Jason's spiral as the standout moment she would love to have -- so I don't begrudge Jason for using the spiral here.

Honestly, I think it's an ask for skaters to choreograph separate programs. And yeah I just don't think there was a lot of time even if you wanted to. In Jason's case, -- I think Chicago area rinks opened in early June and Jason was trying to get into Canada during parts of that month, so at best he probably got 2-3 weeks of ice time in the U.S. and then a few days at TCC after he got out of his 14-day quarantine.

ETA: I really loved Jason's SP and hope it's THE SP for whatever season we have in 2020-2021. I really enjoyed everyone and I think the top five were pretty strong, though I think my top three would have been Jason, Tomoki and Emmanuel.

 

[el henry]

Thank you @MrsP, and if that is what you meant, @Skatesocs, now I understand. Yes, there are similarities but I agree with everyone, given COVID and given the timing (particularly of Jason’s quarantine), replication is understandable.

And of course Jason can do spirals at the beginning, middle and end of every program and in and out of each and every element and I would never be bored

 

[Blades of Passion]

Jordan Moeller's program was really something. I think it could have been an amazing concept with less of the speech included and a less distracting costume.

 

[Skatesocs]

I think Skatesocs means that Jason used the spiral sequence from Schindler's List for the ending. And yes the element itself is the same-- as in he does the spiral and the knee slide. But I think it worked with the music. YMMV. I mean Starr Andrews specifically picked Jason's spiral as the standout moment she would love to have -- so I don't begrudge Jason for using the spiral here.

Honestly, I think it's an ask for skaters to choreograph separate programs. And yeah I just don't think there was a lot of time even if you wanted to. In Jason's case, -- I think Chicago area rinks opened in early June and Jason was trying to get into Canada during parts of that month, so at best he probably got 2-3 weeks of ice time in the U.S. and then a few days at TCC after he got out of his 14-day quarantine.

ETA: I really loved Jason's SP and hope it's THE SP for whatever season we have in 2020-2021. I really enjoyed everyone and I think the top five were pretty strong, though I think my top three would have been Jason, Tomoki and Emmanuel.

I think the element in isolation works well enough with the music, but not with the entire program. But if it's a short program, then they're probably going to end at 3:45 anyway, and that's what I'd like to see from it.

It's fine by me if they didn't choreograph anything for this particular Peggy Fleming Trophy, but in general if it's supposed to be an "artistic" program, it is definitely disappointing to me if they just do an extended/truncated version of their SPs/LPs, especially when such modifications do nothing much in entirety, and definitely when they're still bogged down by level requirements. Did they give notes about how these programs were "artistic"? Or is it yet another event where the artistic side exists only in name...? Because I doubt Brown was exactly thinking about how the ChSq worked with the rest of the program here, or that Rohene Ward choreographed the rest of the program keeping in mind they would need to place a ChSq at the end for one event.

 

[karne]

But if it's a short program, then they're probably going to end at 3:45 anyway

What? Senior short programs are 2:40 +/- 10sec.

Because I doubt Brown was exactly thinking about how the ChSq worked with the rest of the program here, or that Rohene Ward choreographed the rest of the program keeping in mind they would need to place a ChSq at the end for one event.

It's not a ChSq. It was a signature move. And short programs don't have ChSq.

If they did re-use the sequence of spiral into knee slide from Schindler's List - so flipping what? It fit beautifully with the program and it's a beautiful element that shows off his flexibility, lines and edge control. Lots of skaters re-use little flairs like these for competitive programs.

 

[Skatesocs]

I wonder if you read my other post? Because I find it impossible to see if I can communicate with you in the English language otherwise.

It fit beautifully with the program.

Are you a skating judge?

 

[karne]

Are you a skating judge?

Yes, I am.

 

[Skatesocs]

That explains it, then.

 

[ice coverage]

... It's fine by me if they didn't choreograph anything for this particular Peggy Fleming Trophy, but in general if it's supposed to be an "artistic" program, it is definitely disappointing to me ... definitely when they're still bogged down by level requirements. ...

But Peggy Fleming Trophy does not have level requirements.

All PFT elements are Level 1, and thus have a fixed base value.

... Did they give notes about how these programs were "artistic"? Or is it yet another event where the artistic side exists only in name...?

PFT scoring is not based on traditional IJS criteria.

For PFT: "The music, creativity and overall performance are the emphasis for the competition and all skating elements are assessed from an artistic point of view."

PFT has its own bullet points for GOE, which are different from traditional IJS bullet points.
For PFT, GOEs "are based on the artistic execution of the element in relationship to the program as a whole."

From the original GS thread for PFT:

GOE Guidelines

Skaters must achieve the first three bullets in order to be awarded the last 2 bullets.

Jump Elements
+1) aesthetically pleasing
+2) element matches the musical structure
+3) controlled throughout all phases
+4) interesting, unexpected or creative entry and/or, while establishing a good position in the air
+5) meaningfully placed into the composition

Spin Elements
+1) clear and aesthetically pleasing
+2) element matches the musical structure
+3) controlled and balanced through all phases
+4) creative and original
+5) meaningfully placed into the composition

Step Sequence
+1) controlled and well-executed edges, clean steps and turns
+2) element matches and enhances the musical structure
+3) effortless throughout with good energy, flow, and control
+4) creative and original
+5) good control and commitment of the whole body, demonstrating acceleration/deceleration where appropriate

Signature Move
+1) creativity and originality
+2) element enhances the musical structure
+3) effortless throughout with good energy, flow, speed, and control
+4) good ice coverage, clarity, and precision
+5) meaningfully placed into the composition

PCS also is different for PFT than for traditional IJS.

PFT has "five specially defined Components (Skating Skills and Technique, Composition, Interpretation, Performance and Overall Artistic/Creative Value) evaluating the artistry of each program and skater."

For PFT: "Each of the five component marks will be evaluated with the following description."

1. Skating Skills and Technique
Skater’s ability to demonstrate control by successfully using the blade for deep edges and flow, while executing a wide vocabulary of skating.

2. Composition
Skater’s ability to present clearly an idea or purpose. Design and patterns on the ice with full use of space/ice surface.
Elements are to be used as musical highlights, or accents in a program.
Connecting movements should produce seamless transitions throughout the program.

3. Interpretation
Skater’s connection with the music.
Expression of the character, feeling and mood of the music.

4. Performance
Projection and connection to the audience.
The “ta-da moment”
Lively and meaningful composition for audience appeal.

5. Overall Artistic/Creative Value
Overall meaningful and aesthetic effect and performance of a complete artistic package.

---

Regarding the discussion of Jason:

For PFT, a signature move is one of the required elements. (SM1 on the protocols.)
As karne said, Jason's spiral was his signature move.

"Meaningfully placed into the composition" is one of the last two bullet points for PFT GOE for the signature move.
Five out of seven PFT judges gave Jason +5 GOE for his signature move.​

 

[Skatesocs]

Yes, I'm aware PFT doesn't have level requirements. It's why I wish they'd choreographed something entirely different, instead of using SPs/LPs that *will* be choreographed with levels in mind.

PFT scoring is not based on traditional IJS criteria.

That's great, but I'm not talking about scoring. If PFT is supposed to promote artistry, as I've heard it is supposed to, then for me it has failed if most are just using their SPs or LPs, turning them into extended/truncated versions without regard to how the overall program looks, and are putting in "signature" elements that have little regard for the rest of the choreography and interpretation.

 

[removof]

ISU must develop virtual figure skating if not figure skating will be over by covid

 

[ice coverage]

Yes, I'm aware PFT doesn't have level requirements. It's why I wish they'd choreographed something entirely different, instead of using SPs/LPs that *will* be choreographed with levels in mind.


That's great, but I'm not talking about scoring. If PFT is supposed to promote artistry, as I've heard it is supposed to, then for me it has failed if most are just using their SPs or LPs, turning them into extended/truncated versions without regard to how the overall program looks, and are putting in "signature" elements that have little regard for the rest of the choreography and interpretation.

I would say that PFT promotes artistry by rewarding artistry with its scoring system.
(And by not rewarding technical difficulty with higher base value. Additional jump rotations are not rewarded, and quads are not even allowed.)

As I noted above, most of the PFT judges evidently did not agree with your opinion about Jason's signature element.

And one of the PFT components is devoted to overall effect and a complete artistic package.
(Unlike IJS.)

---

Especially in this season of pandemic, I think it is more than understandable that having a completely separate program for PFT was not realistic for skaters.

Also: PFT still is in its infancy (now only in its third year, with only two "normal" years so far), and even in a normal season, a completely separate PFT program would be asking a lot. At the very least: it would take precious training time away from the standard SP and FS, and require the expense of choreography of a separate program.

Can the stature of PFT eventually grow to the point that it would warrant the time and money for skaters to create and train a completely separate program?
The answer remains to be seen, but I did find it extremely interesting that Peggy Fleming said that it was per the ISU's request that an additional jumping pass was required for this year's PFT.
As long as the ISU has an artistic program in mind for its own competitions and sees PFT as a model, I believe that PFT will gain increasing importance.

ETA (on Jul 25):

Adding the time-stamps for Peggy's comments within the PFT competition video about the ISU's input for PFT:

- at approx 3:53, her general comment about getting guidance for PFT from many different parties, including the ISU
- at approx. 5:11, her comment about the ISU's request for adding the ninth element this year
https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/...peggy-fleming-trophy-virtual-competition.aspx​

Also, in one of the local TV news stories from the day before PFT was published on Fan Zone, Peggy said (at about the 3:09 mark) that the organizers had been working with the ISU and with USFS on the rules for PFT.

https://youtu.be/fybVfkdyPME?t=188 (Jul 16, 5:00)​

 

[Skatesocs]

I would say that PFT promotes artistry by rewarding artistry with its scoring system.

In what manner is it rewarding artistry? Again, how did these judges assess artistry of what was put in front of them, and what credibility do they have if they saw a program that was intended to be a short program - and therefore I hope was composed keeping an overall interpretation in mind - increased its length, and included a signature element that was entirely lifted from a previous program, and still came to the conclusion that it was, as you say, 'meaningfully placed'?
I also see Brown toned down his tech content from what it would be in his real SP, and also placed a 3Lo in it. So was it not choreographed properly as an SP and I'm going to miss that 3Lo now, or did he cram in an element where he wasn't supposed to - and then the judges still judged this as an amazing piece?

(And by not rewarding technical difficulty with higher base value. Additional jump rotations are not rewarded, and quads are not even allowed.)

What credibility do I assign to the organisers who can't recognize the entirely different looks on the ice I can get out of quads? And think of jumps as inherently unartistic - so uncreative are they? Or that a well done jump will get a more explosive outlook on the music...? Or the ones who blame jumps automatically for lack of artistry, but can't recognize how level 4s affect skating more often than not...? Or do they watch a Kwan performance and say "hey, y'know, I wish she'd done a level 4 spin, and a level 4 step sequence, just lacked that"?

As I noted above, most of the PFT judges evidently did not agree with your opinion about Jason's signature element.

Barely matters to me, but I'm curious if everyone on this thread agrees with judges' assessments of components in the usual skating competitions? Do you? Or does this being an "artistic competition" suddenly change your outlook on the judging?

You also say that 5/7 judges all think it's well placed in context of the program, but 2 maybe didn't. This is an entirely pointless argument from me though.

While I picked Brown, I think it's obvious I was talking about everyone in this competition, of course. The element itself looks good enough, from Brown. Btw, if you (or anyone else) interpreted this as an attack on Brown and had no interest in discussing the details I'm trying to provide, please, I would like you to ignore my posts, because I'd rather be reading why I'm wrong about PFT, and not "judges and organizers say so" or "Brown's program is amazing, no matter how it's modified". And real arguments, not "here are GOE bullets".

And one of the PFT components is devoted to overall effect and a complete artistic package.

As it is so in the regular competitions, of course, perhaps not in those words. So is your argument "they say so, therefore, it is"?

 

[ice coverage]

...

And one of the PFT components is devoted to overall effect and a complete artistic package.

As it is so in the regular competitions, of course, perhaps not in those words.

Not true.

---

Will not waste my time on further discussion of your other opinions and misconceptions.

Long live PFT!

 

[Tavi...]

I think the element in isolation works well enough with the music, but not with the entire program. But if it's a short program, then they're probably going to end at 3:45 anyway, and that's what I'd like to see from it.

It's fine by me if they didn't choreograph anything for this particular Peggy Fleming Trophy, but in general if it's supposed to be an "artistic" program, it is definitely disappointing to me if they just do an extended/truncated version of their SPs/LPs, especially when such modifications do nothing much in entirety, and definitely when they're still bogged down by level requirements. Did they give notes about how these programs were "artistic"? Or is it yet another event where the artistic side exists only in name...? Because I doubt Brown was exactly thinking about how the ChSq worked with the rest of the program here, or that Rohene Ward choreographed the rest of the program keeping in mind they would need to place a ChSq at the end for one event.

Aren’t you making a lot of assumptions here? All we know about Jason’s program is that it’s new and that Rohene choreographed it. Yeah Ro choreographed two new SPs for Jason, but I’m not aware of any evidence this is one of them. As to what Jason or Rohene or the judges were thinking, or what feedback was given - you don’t know, so why use those things as a basis for criticism?

 

[Impromptu]

Aren’t you making a lot of assumptions here? All we know about Jason’s program is that it’s new and that Rohene choreographed it. Yeah Ro choreographed two new SPs for Jason, but I’m not aware of any evidence this is one of them. As to what Jason or Rohene or the judges were thinking, or what feedback was given - you don’t know, so why use those things as a basis for criticism?

No, it is one of his short options - it was confirmed here: https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/s...-virtual-figure-skating-peggy-fleming-trophy/

I'm also pretty sure that Emmuel's program was one he was using last season as either his short or his long, because I had seen it before.

I'm not sure it matters though - the trophy's rules had a list of set elements, most of which correspond to elements that are in a competitive short program, they just had different point values - in fact the PFT asked for one more jump element than a typical SP. If a skater is particularly artistic, why not use a version of their SP? I've seen plenty of skaters criticized because their SPs were too much like show programs.

Peggy Fleming Trophy required elements:
4 jump elements (one of which had to be an axel)
3 spin elements
1 step sequence
1 signature move

Senior SP required elements:
3 jump elements (one of which must be an axel)
3 spin elements
1 step sequence

 

[Tavi...]

No, it is one of his short options - it was confirmed here: https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/s...-virtual-figure-skating-peggy-fleming-trophy/

I'm also pretty sure that Emmuel's program was one he was using last season as either his short or his long, because I had seen it before.

I'm not sure it matters though - the trophy's rules had a list of set elements, most of which correspond to elements that are in a competitive short program, they just had different point values - in fact the PFT asked for one more jump element than a typical SP. If a skater is particularly artistic, why not use a version of their SP? I've seen plenty of skaters criticized because their SPs were too much like show programs.

Peggy Fleming Trophy required elements:
4 jump elements (one of which had to be an axel)
3 spin elements
1 step sequence
1 signature move

Senior SP required elements:
3 jump elements (one of which must be an axel)
3 spin elements
1 step sequence

Thanks for confirming that. But I agree with your main point - I don’t think it matters whether or not this program is a variation on a SP. Even if it’s true, it says nothing about how the program was recrafted to complement the additional music or how the focus of the program shifted.

 

[gkelly]

There have certainly been skaters who have repurposed music and choreography from previous short programs as freeskates or vice versa, show programs as competitive programs or vice versa, junior programs for senior events and vice versa. In most of these cases they would need to recut the length of the music and also add or delete elements, add or delete transition moves and other choreography between the elements, etc.

It has also not been uncommon for skaters to keep the same music cut for the same type of program but move the elements and in-betweens around to accommodate new skills they'd recently mastered, or to take out skills they couldn't manage on a return from injury, or to improve the artistic flow of the elements and transitions in relation to the music.

If the skater is inclined to aim for "artistry" (however we define that) in their competitive programs, there's no reason that a program that started life in one format couldn't be just as artistic, if not moreso, in a new format.

 

[Mathman]

Are you a skating judge?

Of course. We all are. :yes:

What credibility do I assign to the organisers who can't recognize the entirely different looks on the ice I can get out of quads?

I am pretty sure that the organizers recognize that quads give entirely different looks, They didn't want those looks for this competition. Maybe if you and I were organizing a skating event we would do it differently. (I'll put up my half of the money if you will. )

 

[Skatesocs]

It is fine by me if the organizers don't want quads, but then I reject the idea presented to me that no quads is somehow promoting artistry within this competition. It just means they want a limited family of art within this competition - which doesn't make it an art competition at all, if they didn't make it so they wanted a range of outlooks on the music. What people have presented to me in the thread, however, it seems more they are focused on technique - someone even said it doesn't matter where Brown's spiral was placed, which I can only interpret as the intellectual part behind composition and interpretation mattering little, and that doing a spiral is inherently more artistic, even though it's simply another technique. Triples being artistic, but quads not doesn't have any meaning to me, either.

I have presented my argument as to why I don't believe the judges really judged any artistic aspect in this competition. For me, they need to have a hard rule that no competitor can use a modified competitive program for the PFT, and then we can see how the programs looked.