replay is up here
2021 Skate Canada Challenge: Senior Pairs
- Thread starter gsk8
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Are archived videos available if you missed the livestream for senior pairs?
Oh, scratch that. I see @Koatterce 's link. Thanks!
Oh, scratch that. I see @Koatterce 's link. Thanks!
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I've watched all the senior pairs now (and a repeat of Deanna and Maxime) and I rather enjoyed it. Surprised by Kirsten's big stumble on the throw, as she usually is a good lander of throws, but still a good skate. I was rather impressed by Lori-Ann/Thierry, really nice to watch. And I still think Deanna and Maxime were underscored. I loved them. The last time I saw Brooke was at the Youth Olympic Games, and really improved with her new partner Benjamin. I'll be back tomorrow for the FS!
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Absolutely Deanna & Maxime were underscored. They cleanly debuted this sp last season at a Canadian challenge event in the lead-up to Canadian Nationals, and they were scored 63+. Meanwhile, this clean version of the same program which includes more difficulty is lowballed at 61+ ???
The only thing I can say is that they skated somewhat conservatively and controlled in order to be precise. But I don't see that as a failing to keep them down. So the only other thing is politics and the fact that they are fairly new together and still in the developing phase of their partnership. But they are also a mature team with lovely style and wonderfully matching physical qualities. Perhaps the judges don't want to give them too much too soon, and want to see if they can sustain their consistency in the fp. I believe they were the only team with a moderate level of difficulty in this event to skate cleanly. I would have had them more in the range of 63+ to 64+.
As well, Kirsten & Michael were a bit over-scored, IMO. I love K&M's choreography, and they have a stellar level of difficulty. Julie Marcotte appears to be still trying to explore some sexy, jazzy vibe with these two, as per the James/Cipres edgy thematic that worked so well and has been breakout influential ever since the 2016-2017 season. This type of program works well for K&M and yet it still has a lot of room to grow. This is their first competition of the season, in what is not a normal season, so it was good but not at their best level yet, particularly with the error on the throw. As well, they still do not have that extra special something as a top level team. But they are generally consistent and gritty competitors who dream big.
I would have had K&M more around 68+ to 69+, but I get that they are Canada's top team and so there will be the effort behind them to keep their scores on a par with top teams internationally. Of course, K&M are the veterans among Canadian pairs, and they have more confidence right now in their moves over the ice than Deanna & Maxime, by virtue of K&M having more substantial competitive experience together. So one mistake would not have K&M either behind or tightly scored with a newer team who skated cleanly. But I agree that 61+ is rather lowballed for D&M.
Most likely, judges don't want to give Deanna & Maxime too much out of the gate until they prove themselves over a span of time. There are surely a lot of things D&M are still working hard on to improve. D&M clicked together beautifully when they paired up. By Canadian Nationals last year, they were dealing with injury setbacks and didn't perform as well as they'd hoped. But Deanna was gritty and determined just to be there competing. I admire Deanna for her courageous spirit and her formidable ambition.
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Comparing the protocols from last year and this years Challenge event, they scored higher in every element this year with the except of the sbs jumps since Maxime did a 2T (2T with negative GOE compared to 3T with 0/1 GOE is a loss of ~3.4pts), plus this year's required lift is the group 3 lift, which has a lower base value than last year's group 5 lift (~2pts difference after GOE), though they got higher raw GOE this time around. PCS was almost exactly the same.
So if they did last year's 3T then they would've gotten 64+, and maybe a bit of extra PCS. Imo this shows good improvement in their elements in general as long as they don't pop their sbs.
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^^ Okay, I didn't notice that Maxime only landed a 2T. All I noticed was that he landed slightly forward. Still, they have included more difficulty in this new version of the same short program. I see you are saying that D&M's scores improved for their difficulty, and that the required lift had a lower base value. So, alright.
Still, I personally think that PCS for Deanna & Maxime are kept relatively low simply because they are a fairly new team. It's generally PCS that are manipulated for placements. On the basis of recall, I do think D&M skated with a more carefree confidence when they debuted this program. But they were probably concentrating more on completing the increased difficulty in the virtual event. The program was more simply choreographed previously.
Can you explain K&M's scoring too? I haven't had a chance to view, much less compare protocols.
Still, I personally think that PCS for Deanna & Maxime are kept relatively low simply because they are a fairly new team. It's generally PCS that are manipulated for placements. On the basis of recall, I do think D&M skated with a more carefree confidence when they debuted this program. But they were probably concentrating more on completing the increased difficulty in the virtual event. The program was more simply choreographed previously.
Can you explain K&M's scoring too? I haven't had a chance to view, much less compare protocols.
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Yes, all their other elements are improved from last year (in both levels and GOE), it's just the required lift having lower BV, and Maxime's 2T that kept the tech score down.
One thing I have noticed with PCS in general in this new virtual format, is that there is more variation between judges (the extent of course depends on the skater). In the case of D&M, they had one of the widest spreads. One judge gave them 7.75-8.25, and another gave them 5.5-6.5, and everyone else is in between (average around 6.5-7.25). I don't know what this means for them but they should really hope for judges that like them (maybe they're polarizing? at least with this panel). I don't think I watched Challenge last year (nor would I remember how they did even if I had), so I can't comment on how this performance compares to that overall. It would not surprise me if their performance wasn't quite as great this time especially given the pandemic.
In terms of Kirsten and Mike, their PCS looks comparable to what they get when clean. With this skate, their PCS probably would've been around 1pt lower internationally. Their technical score was around 3pts higher than D&M, which imo is reasonable since they have high quality elements when clean. Mainly it's just the basically-a-fall throw that hurt their TES. Of course judges are likely a little more generous on the GOE, but it probably only would've been 1, maybe 2, pts lower internationally.
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For Deanna & Maxime, I think 5.5 - 6.5 is exceedingly low for their mature, expressive style and for how well they match together. That's where the real lowballing is coming from that keeps their overall score down. So it confirms what we all know: PCS is often used to manipulate placements. PCS is a great 'political rep' tool in the sport of figure skating. I think 7.25 to 8.25 makes much better sense on PCS for D&M at this stage. Plus, one reason why the ISU introduced the wider GOE spread was also to give the judges a great deal of leeway. This was ostensibly to judge mistakes and to distinguish between less quality execution vs clean skates and higher quality execution. But in reality, GOE is also another political scoring tool.
Too bad you didn't see the Canadian Challenge event in Fall 2019. It was worth viewing, for both senior and junior pairs
I don't have the numbers in front of me on Kirsten/Mike's PCS, so I can't say if it's comparable to what they get when they skate clean. I'd say though that 8.25 to 9.0 seems fairly reasonable with a high quality program and performance by them. In some instances, I can see 9.25 for them, but I wouldn't go any higher on PCS. They simply aren't yet that skilled artistically. They are competent and entertaining at their best, but not mesmerizing.
This gets into subjectivity of course. However, any performance, movement, and choreography expert would be able to say what they are good at and what they lack. For e.g., the jazzy romantic vibe is cool and they do it well. It really suits Kirsten's perky, vivacious personality because it softens her at the same time it gives her a bit of the edginess we remember in some of her best programs with Dylan M. K&M are still trying to perfect this jazzy romantic style for their sps, while exploring deeper and more lyrical themes in some of their fps that include elements of romance but in a more abstract, spiritual way. At least, that's how I interpret their journey so far.
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Shades of Vanessa James. J/C are gone from the competitive scene, but sexy onesies are still en vogue. It was nice to catch a glimpse of Vanessa talking with Kaitlin Weaver during the Junior pairs intermission.
For reference, D&M's (average) PCS is comparable (or even a bit higher) to what Deanna got when she was skating with Nate Bartholomay (yes I checked). They have many good moments but the fact that they are a newer team does show imo, the chemistry and sense of togetherness isn't quite there yet, though there definitely is a lot of potential. They're definitely mature and experienced skaters which helps them overall. The
Seems like the super low scoring judge just didn't really like them, but getting one bad judge happens in international competitions too (never ideal, but it happens). At least there was a higher scoring judge to balance it out here. Their PCS was generally divisive across this panel, so it's hard to guess what their PCS will be like moving forward, especially since there are no international scores to refer to.
When I said K&M's PCS is comparable to a clean skate, I actually checked. Their PCS scores here generally ranged from 8.25-9, which is reasonable.
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Anyone watching the LP? First flight just finished.
It’s been rough so far.
It’s been rough so far.
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The two new teams that just did double elements were mostly pleasant to watch, I thought.
I remain kind of amazed by how good Andrew/Adcock's triple twist looks after so little time.
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I predict McIntosh/Mimar will have the highest BV of the event.
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Colonel, for the non-Canadians among us, what is Cegep? Ted has yet to explain.
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It's a kind of junior college that exists only in Quebec that students go to between high school and undergraduate university.
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I like them too. They have some of the same, appealingly gentle quality that Ziegler/Kieffer have. And I really enjoyed their short program—imaginative music choice and choreo.
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Oh dear. Deanna’s body language at the end of that skate. “I just died in your arms,” indeed.
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