2021 Skate Canada Challenge: Senior Pairs

[Flying Feijoa]

What were the two years of twice?

I see S/B withdrew from worlds in 2016 due to an injury, lack of training time, etc (in fact that injury was an ankle injury, NOT a concussion, but I'll count it as "once" anyway).

In 2017, the year of Seguin's first concussion, S/B missed Canadian Nationals, but recovered enough to go to Worlds instead of M-T/M. So just the opposite of what you described (if indeed you were thinking of that year as the second year in "twice").

Both teams medaled at Nationals and went to Worlds in 2018; M-T/M came 7th and S/B 22nd at Worlds.

In 2018 it was I/M who were left off the (Olympic) team because of a major (and career-ending) injury and 4th place finish at Nationals. They may have been offered Worlds when D/R didn't go and turned it down. bIn any event, Ruest/Wolfe, the 6th place finishers at Nationals, were the 3rd Canadian team at 2018 Worlds.

By the way, I was at Nationals in 2018, and there was much puzzlement in the audience when S/B placed ahead of M-T/M. I remember someone looking up the protocols on her smart phone while we were waiting in the inevitable ladies' room line to try to explain it.

Thanks for the facts!
I like S/B, MT/M and I/M and think they had similar scoring potential (all fighting for 2nd behind D/R). Implying consistent superiority of S/B over MT/M is an opinion biased by personal preference rather than history. I remember all three pairs being hit-or-miss with jumps at the time (esp. SBS).
I appreciate MT/M's speed and pair skating skills in this field. They improved a lot in the last couple of years. Maybe I/M and S/B would match or best them in this department if they were still competing, but they aren't. The poster who dislikes MT/M seems to be hoping S/D will grow to crush them, but I don't think that's likely anytime soon.

By the way, J/C were good at projecting sexiness but they didn't have the greatest skating skills. Whether a pair's style vibes with you or not isn't the main factor in determining PCS.

I'd also add that J/C didn't invent sexiness and not every pair who aims for romantic chemistry is trying to copy them.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ Thanks for the correction regarding Seguin/Bilodeau @NanaPat. I didn't remember the exact details. I just remembered that S/B missed going to Worlds and M-T/M replaced them. And that S/B went through a series of injuries including a concussion that caused them to miss competitions. Thanks for clarifying.

It's still true that M-T/M got some lucky breaks and took advantage of their opportunities to the fullest. With Seguin/Bilodeau splitting, and Luba/Bilodeau not panning out as expected, that also allows M-T/M to hold onto top veteran status for Canada in pairs. As well, Cami/Drew who are so gorgeous together have ran into roadblocks with injuries and difficulty mastering some of the advanced elements and putting it all together. C&D have had some lovely programs choreographically, but have lacked technical consistency.

If Deanna/Maxime continue to improve at a good clip, they have a chance to be on the podium at Canadian Nationals this year. The top two teams are sure to be Kirsten/Michael and Evelyn/Trennt (whom we didn't get to see yet due to Evelyn's injury). Still, Deanna/ Maxime can challenge over time if things work out for them. They appear to be looking beyond 2022, but it would be nice if they can make a consistent run starting now for the Cdn Nats podium. D&M won't get international assignments in any case until Deanna manages to gain her release from U.S. fed.

Having now seen the full junior pairs, I must say ACarle/GFarand had a subpar fp. They were lucky that Laurin/Ethier made a number of errors in a fp packed with difficulty that had they skated well would have given them the win. As it is, Carle/Farand won overall mostly because of their standing in the sp. They placed third in the fp, but won overall by 2 points. Laurin/Ethier dropped to third.

There are a lot of very good looking young junior pairs teams coming up for Canada, including Carle/Farand, Laurin/Ethier, Fredette/St.-Louis (he's so tall at 6'6" Wow), Carignan/Pierro, Wilberforce/Wright, and even Chloe Panetta/ Kieran Thrasher (although with Kieran coming over from hockey and new to pairs skating, he's got a lot of work to do to improve). Still, it's so nice for Chloe that she found a new partner after the split with Benjamin Mimar. Chloe & Kieran have a good look together on the ice (better than Chloe had with Ben). However, it will take time for Chloe & Kieran to improve on their elements, but there's a lot there they have to work with, so I hope they stick with it.

I was also so glad to see that Patricia Andrew found a new partner too in Steven Adcock, who's a bit older, but they seem well-matched physically. Certainly, Andrew's former partner, Zach Daleman, is beautifully matched with Justine Brasseur. Zach & Justine seem quite comfortable and happy skating together. Their coaches are taking it slow with their progression on the elements at the moment, which is wise. Eventually, we should see 3-twist and triple throws from Zach & Justine. It makes sense to work on comfort level together and refining other details while becoming confident on the technical basics before increasing difficulty.

Among the younger seniors, Justine/Zach seem to have great promise if they continue to steadily develop. Brooke McIntosh/Ben Mimar look good on all of their elements. They are coming along very well. Obviously being focused on the elements and with Brooke so young, they still have a growth curve in terms of connecting and growing as a pair beyond aceing the elements. Matte/Ferland are a well-matched team who apparently have a lot of experience together as younger skaters. They are competent and pleasing to watch, but I don't find them that memorable. At 21/23, M/F have a lot of time ahead of them to further improve. They are good, but I don't see out-sized potential.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Implying consistent superiority of S/B over MT/M is an opinion biased by personal preference rather than history. I remember all three pairs being hit-or-miss with jumps at the time (esp. SBS).

You must be inferring that me or someone else 'implied consistent superiority' of Julianne & Charlie over Kirsten & Michael. That's certainly not what I said nor 'implied.' To be clear: these two teams were rivals, but factually the history tells us that Seguin/Bilodeau always placed ahead of M-T/M at Canadian Nationals. In the beginning, the greater rivalry was between Luba/Dylan and Julianne/Charlie. Furthermore, when K&M first paired, they had a rough time making things work in addition to dealing with a ton of unfair criticism from fans upset with Kirsten for ditching Dylan for a younger skater. But that's water under the bridge. I was not one of those who took cheap shots at Kirsten for her decision. Still, I wasn't sure how well K&M were going to perform as a team because it was rough going for them in the beginning. To face facts, Michael had a lot of work to do to catch up with Kirsten's ability and experience.

Kirsten bit the bullet and made the wise decision to change everything including leaving the Wirtzes. Meagan gave her assent, and K&M joined the Bruno Marcotte/ Richard Gauthier training camp. Julie Marcotte has been so important to K&M's overall development as a pair by fashioning choreo that has helped them both to grow. K&M are enjoyable to watch. Their fp from a few seasons ago that they kept for two seasons was an important breakthrough for them, and it's my favorite fp of theirs. Still, they have to continue working on developing something extra special as a team to help them stand out internationally. Their biggest asset is their gritty competitiveness and determination to succeed. Plus, international judges appear to like them. Canadian political clout and pairs legacy surely helps.

Honestly, K&M were still putting things together when Julianne & Charlie were building momentum with their brand of delightful magic. That's not implying that J&C were overly 'superior' to K&M, just that J&C had been together longer and had gained significant international recognition in both junior and senior competition during the 2014 - 2015 season. Notice that with Meagan/Eric at the top consistently at Canadian Nationals, the second spot was a battle circa 2015 - 2016 between Luba/Dylan and Julianne/Charlie. You can check the stats.

Cdn Nats 2015:
Luba/Dylan (a new pairing) 2nd
Julianne/Charlie 3rd
Kirsten/Michael (a new pairing) 4th

Cdn Nats 2016:
Julianne/Charlie 2nd
Luba/Dylan 3rd
Kirsten/ Michael 4th

K&M capitalized when Julianne/Charlie did not go to Worlds in 2016. So, 2016 was the second big break for Kirsten/Michael with the opportunity to attend Boston Worlds where they placed an unexpected 8th, which was great for a first time team. The key is likely that international judges were familiar with Kirsten from her successful partnership with Dylan, and plus K&M are gritty competitors. Also, 2016 Worlds took place in North America so that probably helped politically. K&M's first big break was moving to Marcotte/Gauthier and being nurtured by Julie Marcotte.

Cdn Nats 2017:
Luba/Dylan 2nd
Kirsten/Michael 3rd (Julianne/Charlie had to withdraw)

But Julianne/Charlie went to 2017 Worlds and placed 11th, while K&M stayed home. Luba/Dylan were 6th at 2017 Worlds and Meagan/Eric uncharacteristically landed in 7th as defending World champions.

Cdn Nats 2018:
Julianne/Charlie 2nd
Kirsten/Michael 3rd
Luba/Dylan 4th

Unfortunately Dylan had been injured in a freak mishap that not many fans knew about, so that's a big reason why Luba/Dylan placed fourth at 2018 Cdn Nats. L&D's misfortune gave Kirsten/Michael their third big break: the opportunity to land on the podium and go to the Olympics where they placed 11th. Julianne/Charlie placed 9th at 2018 Olympics.

Then at 2018 Worlds, fortunes completely changed for Julianne/Charlie. They probably should have skipped Worlds that year altogether. But with Meagan & Eric retiring and skipping Worlds, J&C likely wished to make a mark. Julianne did not look to be in the best shape, likely due to limited training time from injury and concussion. Sadly, J&C faltered in the sp and didn't make the cut for the fp. Kirsten/Michael fortunately for Canada placed a career high 6th at 2018 Worlds (albeit with some top international teams having retired after the Olympics). In 2019, K&M placed 7th at Worlds. So K&M have been fortunate in their Worlds appearances: 8th, 6th, 7th. Kirsten was 4th at Worlds in 2014 with Dylan M. Julianne/Charlie had a great 2014 - 2015 season, winning JGPF, bronze at Cdn Nats, and going to both senior Worlds (8th) and Junior Worlds (2nd). Subsequently, J&C did not fare as well at Worlds, withdrawing in 2016, 11th in 2017, and in 2018 faltering to 22nd in the sp and failing to make fp cut.

For Julianne/Charlie, perhaps after giving their all to make the 2018 Olympic team and to do their best at the Olympics, J&C had a letdown at 2018 Worlds. In retrospect, it appears that Charlie didn't handle these combined competitive setbacks very well emotionally, leading eventually to the split with Julianne and later the aborted partnership with Luba.

BTW, I enjoy watching all Canadian pairs teams. I did not have an overwhelming favorite between Kirsten/Michael; Julianne/Charlie; and Luba/Dylan. I also enjoyed watching Kirsten/Dylan and Meagan/Eric, particularly as these two teams vastly improved.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

The poster who dislikes MT/M seems to be hoping S/D will grow to crush them, but I don't think that's likely anytime soon.

Wow, what a huge misreading! I'm just thoughtful and longwinded in my responses. I love pairs skating and I enjoy breaking things down and ruminating over skaters' various journeys. I'm definitely attracted to Deanna/Maxime, but I mostly enjoy watching pairs altogether. I vaguely remember Deanna as a singles skater in the U.S. It was rather exciting and inspiring when she came back after so many years out of the sport to pair with Nate Bartholomay. The fact that Deanna is determined to continue skating competitively at such an advanced age is fascinating, and what she's been able to achieve so far has been inspiring.

Frankly, I can watch and re-watch U.S. Nationals pairs events and it never gets old for me. I've done that too. I could probably do the same with Cdn Nationals events. And it's cool recently to find Russian Nationals pairs events more accessible. I watch junior pairs a lot too in the U.S. and on JGP.

It's rather silly to suggest that I think Deanna/Maxime "will grow to crush Kirsten/Michael." LOL!!! My main thoughts for Deanna/Maxime is hoping they will continue to improve and be able to achieve their competitive goals. I'm also happy for the exciting journey Kirsten and Michael have been on. As I said, K&M are enjoyable to watch. They captured my attention and admiration with their breakthrough Un Ange Passe fp that was instrumental in helping them explore a signature style on the ice. I didn't like Meagan & Eric as a pair team when I first saw them. But by 2012, they really captured my interest and imagination with how much they were improving, and for their passion and hunger to compete and to be their best.

I tend to be straightforward and honest about my perceptions, which doesn't make me right or wrong. K&M's journey is fun to watch and they've been remarkable in their evolution together. Still, as I've said, I don't think K&M yet possess the kind of magic that some partnerships convey. Michael is a great person and he's improved a lot, but he's not the best pairs guy among the top echelon. K&M's best asset is their gritty desire and competitiveness. Plus, as I said, having Canadian fed clout and pairs legacy behind them.

I enjoy watching all pairs, though I have some favorites here and there. But no one I'm totally blown away by currently. I want to see more storytelling and more 'skating two as one.' That is unlikely to happen with the lengthy technical requirements and shortened programs. The Russian pairs have stellar technique and a dominating legacy, but aside from the greats like the Protopopovs, G&G, Dmitriev & partners, and Berezh/Sikhar, a number of Russian pairs teams have struggled with connecting and projecting to audiences. The younger Russian teams coming up may well change that dynamic in the long run. My favorite storytelling fp is the 1997 U.S. Nationals fp by Stiegler/Zimmerman to The Sorcerer's Apprentice.

My favorite pair team is the one I truly fell in love with when I became captured by skating: Tai Babilonia & Randy Gardner. Additional favorites are Shen/Zhao; Savchenko/Szolkowy; Sale/Pelletier; and James/Cipres. And I was so happy for Savchenko/Massot fulfilling their dreams. Their That Man program is a blast! Currently, I'm fascinated by and on board with the journeys of Calalang/Johnson; Knierim/Frazier; and Cain/LeDuc. But again, I simply enjoy watching all pairs teams. I enjoy watching Sui/Han and I admire their strength of will, but they've never been a favorite. I could get on board with Peng/Jin, but I don't think they've yet lived up to their potential. I'm hoping that Yu Xiaoyu will find fulfillment in her competitive life with her new partner.

Getting back to Kirsten/Michael, there was a Canadian fan who fantasized about Kirsten pairing with Trennt Michaud. I laughed at that and my first reaction was "No way." Of course, it'll never happen, but when I thought more about it, I somehow got hooked and I can't get the vision out of my head. Kirsten is the right size for Trennt, and her spark could possibly go extremely well with Trennt's tremendous partnering skills. Trennt makes everything look so easy.

The fact is that Michael had to bring his level up to KIrsten's abilities, and Evelyn having been new to pairs, had to work hard to bring her level up to Trennt's. Had Trennt and Kirsten ever paired, their abilities would have been more equal from the beginning. Plus, I think their physicality is well-suited. I also feel that Evelyn could match well with Michael. The problem is that K&M and E&T have worked so hard as devoted teams and they've invested so much into their respective partnerships. It's not easy to split and start over with someone else, no matter how more physically compatible and/or magical a different partnership has the potential to be.

 

[NanaPat]

^^ Thanks for the correction regarding Seguin/Bilodeau @NanaPat. I didn't remember the exact details.

You know, you can look things up when you don't remember them clearly. That's what I did when I doubted your assertion. You can also look at the protocols before you say scores were wrong (2T instead of 3T / lower base value of lifts). You can also watch skates before pontificating on what happened in them.

But that's just crazy talk.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

One thing (as has been noted before in a different thread that has since been locked), by J/C in my post I was referring to James/Cipres.
Other than that, there's nothing else I can add to make this particular discussion fruitful on both sides.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

You know, you can look things up when you don't remember them clearly. That's what I did when I doubted your assertion. You can also look at the protocols before you say scores were wrong (2T instead of 3T / lower base value of lifts). You can also watch skates before pontificating on what happened in them.

But that's just crazy talk.

Yeah, whatever. The main point I have made regarding Kirsten/Michael getting some breaks which they worked hard to take full advantage of IS NOT wrong. Plus, I did check specific details to back up my main points, and to correct some of your and other posters' misreadings, assertions and assumptions regarding my commentary and intentions, which you are ignoring, but again, whatever.

 

[NanaPat]

The main point I have made regarding Kirsten/Michael getting some breaks which they worked hard to take full advantage of IS NOT wrong.

But you are very wrong to ignore one big non-break they got. I don't think anyone expected Dylan to get a new partner as good as Lubov. Not that I am complaining; I love Lubov and Dylan. I also love MT/M and all the other Canadian pairs.

As far as misreadings, etc go, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and lays duck eggs, then it might possibly be a duck.

 

[Znowflake]

Just watched and I just wanted to chime in and say I really loved MT/M choreography for their long.. it has some really nice moments

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

But you are very wrong to ignore one big non-break they got. I don't think anyone expected Dylan to get a new partner as good as Lubov. Not that I am complaining; I love Lubov and Dylan. I also love MT/M and all the other Canadian pairs.

Sigh... @NanaPat, and @Flying Feijoa, every athlete takes advantage of their breaks and opportunities. It's not a slam against Kirsten/Michael to point out the opportunities they took advantage of. It's to their credit. I already pointed out the fact that Luba/Dylan were in the mix vs Julianne/Charlie as these two teams battled for 2nd behind Meagan and Eric circa 2015 to 2016 with opposing results. In both of those years, Kirsten/Michael were the 4th place team, as they were trying to build their partnership. The fact that Julianne/Charlie took second at Cdn Nats in 2016, but then had to withdraw from attending Worlds which gave K&M their debut Worlds opportunity is an interesting situation, followed by a similar but yet differing situation the following year, which makes exact recall imperfect. The exact sequence of events is rather complicated, because essentially there were three teams battling for the Cdn podium behind Meagan & Eric during the period in question.

It seemingly doesn't make any difference to you about having a polite give and take conversation. We don't all have to agree about our perceptions and feelings about skaters. Everyone of us will take away something different when we watch skaters perform. Anyone who prefers to be exclusively hung up on numbers crunching, there's nothing wrong with that preference. Checking protocols can shed some interesting light, but it doesn't tell us everything, even about the judges' true feelings or the skating politics. I'm more focused on the nuances of performances, and checking protocols helps to clarify some things that the eyes miss, and sometimes even commentators get wrong on first look. It can also reveal some leanings by judges, but fs scoring is a complicated and problematic system. I don't rely on it to explain the truth about everything subjective and elusive that happens at events.

As far as K&M not specifically going to Worlds twice (but only once in 2016) due to Julianne/Charlie having to withdraw, good on you for pointing that out @NanaPat, as I said. I went a step further and relayed the stats showing that in fact what happened was complicated and easy to misremember the sequence. Because the very next year (2017), as you also pointed out, J&C had to withdraw from Cdn Nats, yet they went to Worlds and K&M had to stay home, after placing 3rd at Cdn Nats in J&C's absence.

Whatever fans felt about the 2018 Cdn Nats scoring of Julianne/Charlie vs Kirsten/ Michael, is what it is. But it's anecdotal and not an official fan survey. Plus what individual fs fans think don't necessarily rock the boats or change the minds of judges, ISU, or feds.

Julianne/Charlie clearly came ahead of K&M at Cdn Nats every time these teams competed in that event together. Yet, K&M have a better record at Worlds. J&C's 2014 - 2015 international breakthrough and momentum began to wane as they faced injury setbacks. My initial comments were never intended to imply as @Flying Feijoa asserted that somehow me or any other poster here thinks in terms of J&C having 'superiority' over K&M. Please don't accuse others of what's stuck in your own head(s) for whatever reason.

The main thrust of my specific comments were never fixated on proving any special point about rivalries. And once again, my main commentary is NOT wrong in terms of my intent to point out K&M took advantage of their breaks and opportunities. There's no need for all of this over-sensitivity and misconstruing. My immediate reaction was thanking and moving on. For some reason, the ongoing rejoinders by you are in the vein of continuing to needle and to make assumptions (e.g., 'quacking like a duck' is an unnecessary and uncalled for jibe). I will leave you guys to get hung up on the rivalries and 'superiority' chatter. I've enjoyed the competitive journeys of all of Meagan/Eric; Luba/Dylan; Julianne/Charlie; and Kirsten/Michael (and K&M's trajectory is still ongoing).

All of this is tempest in a teapot. Again I thank you for sharing precise details. And I'm glad to have shared further precise details. Enjoy the skaters you love.

I'm here to share my passion, perceptions, and my opinions, not to get drawn into fandom snipes. I generously explained that in my previous posts, but it seems to have been ignored. There's so much of a lighthearted nature to discuss without the need for oversensitivity and misconstruing. Plus, accepting that we don't all have the same opinions and that's okay, is a good thing.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

By the way, J/C were good at projecting sexiness but they didn't have the greatest skating skills. Whether a pair's style vibes with you or not isn't the main factor in determining PCS.

LOL! I missed this comment by you previously, so thanks for referencing it again. Woah and just Wow. Yep, that's always been the 'go-to' complaint when it comes to James/Cipres: "they don't have great SS." FYI: You can say that about any number of competitive senior level skaters today. Why the over-fixation on James/Cipres and their SS all the time??? It's not just you. I've heard this refrain repeatedly by any number of fans who for whatever reason don't seem to have liked James/Cipres, especially when they began to challenge for the top and to win championships.

A number of fans on a different forum have disliked and objected to me mentioning J/C's lasting influence on pairs, especially over their last three seasons. No matter what anyone thinks, J/C's movement style, costumes, music selection, and breakthrough, in collaboration with their coaches & choreographers, of utilizing ice dance moves in their programs, made a significant impact. Moreover, their chemistry was special, whether it's recognized or not by individual fans.

Ummm, maybe refer to Kaitlin Weaver's brief discussions with Vanessa James during the recent SC Virtual comp intermissions and open your mind to the fact of the hidden biases that Vanessa has courageously faced during her entire skating career. Some subtle and some not-so subtle put-downs. A recurring put-down has always been the 'lack of good SS' claim. And right, what a coded juxtaposition: "Vanessa is sexy, but didn't have great skating skills."

I think the SS critique in regard to both Vanessa & Morgan is very overdone. In Vanessa's case, it's used to ignore her worthy and substantial talents. It surely had to be difficult for both Vanessa & Morgan to traverse these hidden biases over the course of their pairs career. It's commendable what they managed to achieve together, particularly over the last three years of their career.

Similarly, a number of fans tended to look upon Robin Szolkowy as some kind of appendage of Aljona's with only Aljona being the reason for their success. I've seen those put-down critiques of Robin over the years in some quarters (not by everyone, but it has existed).

Plus, I'm not a fs judge, so what vibes with me regarding individual skaters' performances is about my own subjective perceptions, which again I like to share in a lighthearted way, not for any negative argumentative purposes.

 

[surimi]

Does anyone know why Ruest/Wolfe did not compete here? Do they train abroad, or are they injured, taking a break, or...?

 

[Koatterce]

Does anyone know why Ruest/Wolfe did not compete here? Do they train abroad, or are they injured, taking a break, or...?

I heard a rumour that they are out with injury, though I don't think there was official confirmation of that. However, the French commentator did not mention they would be at nationals (they said top 7 + Walsh/Michaud), so at the least it seems that they will be sitting out the season.