2021 Worlds: Pairs' FS "Thoughts and Observations"

[Blades of Passion]

Who cares if it is 88 or 91 degrees of underrotation?

The rules care. Either examine precisely or stop acting like the scores should be taken as matter of fact.

And if you indeed do not care much, that shows exactly why the rules/judging are not optimal, and why a < call should not be the main factor in who wins a competition or a not.

In my time, the only pair who were a class above their elite contemporaries were Gordeeva & Grinkov. Sui & Han are terrific, but they do not really qualify for this accolade.

This is a fallacy. Sui/Han compared to this field were indeed like Gordeeva/Grinkov, and frankly Sui/Han at their best (and even in many moments of this championship) have shown a greater level of expression and intricacy than G/G were ever capable of. They've pushed the discipline to a new level.

If you truly believe Mishina/Gallimov "were on the same level" then actually provide reasoning and give detailed examples for how their skating skills, expression, musicality, and unity deserve to score the same.

And really, anyone who is arguing this result was the correct one, should then be arguing that Shen/Zhao deserved to win 1999 Worlds over Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze.

 

[Skatesocs]

Frankly Sui/Han at their best (and even in many moments of this championship) have shown a greater level of expression and intricacy then G/G were ever capable of. They've pushed the discipline to a new level.

It's why I said Sui and Han have some Ice Dance like qualities... The Blues for Klook choreography is what I want to see in Ice Dance; not just intricacy in terms of movement, but rather an overall commentary on the musical composition. Best choreography/interpretation ever for Pairs. They elevate music, not just skate to it, or even just skate with it. They are the greatest Pair ever at this point.

The Rain, In Your Black Eyes piece is similar in what they are trying to convey, but I just wish they'd ever hit a better ending, and the Pairs spin was slightly more fine tuned.

Just technically they have the best Skating Skills too. The blades are quick and sharp across the ice, and they skate with amazing speed and flow. And their throws are pretty perfect.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, we are all "reviewers" here. I also "reviewed" that element. For me her landing was extremely poorly executed - even the Chinese judge gave it -3


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Was it < or q? Who cares if it is 88 or 91 degrees of underrotation? It was a bad SBS jump. 3 out of 3 their SBS jumps were poorly executed. Do it better next time and then you will have a clear shot at gold. It's very simple.

100%. Had they done any of her 3 jumping passes better it would have been enough for gold. To me, it is fair that M/G who did all their jumping passes well done and had a strong twist and other elements deserves the gold. Yes S/H had excellent other elements but it wasn’t their best whereas M/G were lights out in both segments.

 

[coldblueeyes]

100%. Had they done any of her 3 jumping passes better it would have been enough for gold. To me, it is fair that M/G who did all their jumping passes well done and had a strong twist and other elements deserves the gold. Yes S/H had excellent other elements but it wasn’t their best whereas M/G were lights out in both segments.

I mean, S/H won M/G element by element, but NOT the SBS. I'm sure the judges would have given it to them, if they've skated just a bit better.

 

[Lana05]

Sui can't jump.
Plus M/G did more expensive throws.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I mean, S/H won M/G element by element, but NOT the SBS. I'm sure the judges would have given it to them, if they've skated just a bit better.

Agreed. I’m not saying the SBS were the be all and end all of pairs skating but in this case they were a notable determinant of the outcome of this competition.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Agreed. I’m not saying the SBS were the be all and end all of pairs skating but in this case they were a notable determinant of the outcome of this competition.

They definitely were. M/G garnered 10 points more than S/H in the SBS across the two programs. That’s just a lot of points.

 

[hannahbanana]

Changing the topic, but in my opinion this event has put boikova/kozlovski in a precarious situation. Does moskvina have enough political power to keep them in the top 3 teams or will they be dropped by Rusfed for p/k or p/r (if they get their SBS together). I can’t see vova and zhenya getting dropped, despite their poor showing here

 

[Colonel Green]

Changing the topic, but in my opinion this event has put boikova/kozlovski in a precarious situation. Does moskvina have enough political power to keep them in the top 3 teams or will they be dropped by Rusfed for p/k or p/r (if they get their SBS together). I can’t see vova and zhenya getting dropped, despite their poor showing here

The highlighted part is the key there. There's obviously politicking in pairs, but there's only so much politicking can do if you aren't getting the elements done. B/K's rise is due to their consistency versus teams that either aren't consistent (T/M) or don't have their polish (P/R). RusFed is never going to back a pair team that is really inconsistent over one that consistently gets the job done.

 

[coldblueeyes]

I don't think for a minute these two will be dropped by the Fed. If anything, playing their cards right, Russia could go 1-2 in the Olympics like nobody's business, because at the moment, there's only S/H on their way. If you look at past and current results, P/K is not really a viable option for that. They'd never score enough to beat S/H. And T/M are wildcards, I guess.

 

[Sweet Dream]

About Boikova's reaction, it wasn't good but she is very young and naturally competitive. It was said in the heat of the moment.

No one is a fool. She lost the "Gold" because of her own mistakes, but she took it out on her venerable coach. This is not "in the heat of the moment", but the real expression of her pent-up grievances against Moskvina! I don't want to sound too harsh, but if you consider yourself an elegant person, you should act in the same way at least in public. I'd like to see that their saluting the coach after each skate is not merely a formality.

As for the disputes over the final winner, S/H were not in their best form after the surgery, and technically they were much weaker than M/G, so it was understandable that their skate was not rewarded with another victory, and the same old program did not help, either. If they could fix their flawed jumps, they would be unbeatable not only at Worlds but also at their home Olympics, because their music selection, program choreography and performance are really in a quite different league from the Russian pairs, but I am rather doubtful about that.

I used to appreciate T/M very much because of their high-quality technical elements, but they have never delivered two clean skates at any big event so far. I'm afraid they have completely lost their chances of winning a big title in their career.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Changing the topic, but in my opinion this event has put boikova/kozlovski in a precarious situation. Does moskvina have enough political power to keep them in the top 3 teams or will they be dropped by Rusfed for p/k or p/r (if they get their SBS together). I can’t see vova and zhenya getting dropped, despite their poor showing here

I'm not sure what you mean by 'precarious situation' for B/K. They faltered under pressure of having to match or better what M/G were able to do with very high scores. That was a lot of pressure, and B/K didn't withstand it. But that doesn't mean B/K are now suddenly inconsistent. It means they have to get their heads together and work on learning what it takes to compete under tremendous pressure.

I was just looking at the opening of TSL's recap of 2021 Worlds. I haven't seen all of it yet, but it opens with Elena Bechke as their guest. Bechke talks about revering Moskvina and thinking of her as a mother. Bechke is still very close to Moskvina, who apparently will soon be turing 80! Bechke laughed as she recalled that Moskvina thought about retiring after guiding two teams to 1 and 2 at the Olympics, but of course she didn't retire. She continued on with a number of other teams, and amazingly she now has two more teams that she has guided to the 2021 Worlds podium.

Bechke went on to discuss the petulant behavior by Boikova immediately after their free skate. I don't recall seeing anything of this interaction on camera. Did anyone here witness Boikova disrespecting Moskvina, and throwing something at Koslovskii?? Apparently, Boikova (after making uncharacteristic mistakes in the fp) was upset in her remarks to Moskvina, saying in a hurtful tone after the fp, "Well now you have your World champions" (meaning M/G). Wow. Bechke said that this will follow Boikova for the rest of her career.

Bechke also said that the words and actions by Boikova were cut from the Russian broadcast. Bechke feels that B/K are a strong team who have displayed a lot of confidence, but she also feels that their confidence has extended to being 'cocky.'

It's sad to hear this. I wondered whether B/K were a bit upset about Moskvina taking on MG, their direct rivals, and helping them to improve. What Boikova should remember is that Moskvina helped her & Koslovskii to break through to the top as well. Boikova should self-reflect and take a longer view. It is better to be magnanimous and sportsmanlike in these situations. If Boikova feels that Moskvina favors M/G, the better response is to be humble and to show Moskvina that you are eager and willing to work harder and to gain her help in being the best you can be.

It will be interesting to see whether Boikova's fit of pique leads to B/K parting from Moskvina, or whether Boikova will apologize and things will be smoothed over. I can't see B/K being dropped by Rusfed unless they allow this defeat to completely affect their training and competitive confidence. Once again, it will be interesting to see if Boikova will self-reflect and understand that battling back with sportsmanship and hard work is the better avenue. Leaving Moskvina would be a mistake I think. I wonder how Moskvina will privately handle Boikova's negative reaction.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

S/H are the greatest Pair ever at this point.

Do you mean competing in the current field? Honestly, S/H are in no way the greatest pair 'ever.' They would be rivaled by a number of other absolute greats of all time, including their own coaches, Shen/Zhao, and other unforgettable teams such as Gordeeva/Grinkov; Babilonia/Gardner; Mishkutenok/Dmitriev; Savchenko/Szolkowy; Bereshnaya/Sikharulidze; Rodnina/Zaitsev; Sale/Pelletier; Pang/Tong; Underhill/Martini; Belousova/Protopopov, et al.

S/H have had some wonderful moments in recent years, but injuries have hampered their ability to reach the highest level of performance excellence over the last couple of seasons. IMO, early in S/H's career, they were known mainly for their dynamic technical 'tricks' expertise, along with compelling energy and excitement. However, they did not excel aesthetically until recent years, with the help of Shen/Zhao molding and fine-tuning them, along with S/H's own maturity coming to the fore.

 

[Skatesocs]

Honestly,

I don't know what's so "honest" about this post. You took my opinion and added your own. Good for you. I disagree - in general, with practically all your skating takes.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Did anyone here witness Boikova disrespecting Moskvina, and throwing something at Koslovskii??

You missed the fun about that. Apparently Sasha B's understandable reaction to the worst moment of her life has made her irredeemable and she's now public enemy number one and she should probably retire right now.

Bechke also said that the words and actions by Boikova were cut from the Russian broadcast.

Well she needn't worry because Russian Eurosport kindly put up the whole thing on YouTube so everyone can go and judge her. Because nobody else is ever upset when they lose out on their big dream.

Sorry this isn't directed at you, but at those who would turn against Sasha B and write her off forever for this mistake.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Do you mean competing in the current field?

Oh yeah and no, S/H are the best pair ever anyone who has a different opinion is a hack who doesn't know figure skating from a hole in the ground.

Woe to anyone who doesn't fall over and worship them.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I don't know what's so "honest" about this post. You took my opinion and added your own. Good for you. I disagree - in general, with practically all your skating takes.

LOL, good for you. This is figure skating after all, and it definitely gets rather emotional. I've been there with the emotion, disappointment, heartache, and in the case of ice dance politics, disgust. Still, I try to take a step back on occasion and get over myself and my viewpoints and just try to take a larger, more thoughtful view. Of course, it ain't easy. BTW, I was simply asking you a question for clarity, not 'taking your opinion and adding my own.' I shared my opinions regarding S/H, which don't have to match up with anyone else's.

Love who you love, and enjoy thinking your faves are the greatest ever. It's a subjective sport, and that's why so many debates take place with no resolution. In any case, life is too short for lashing out, which I suppose Boikova might learn.

Fans aren't even supposed to agree with each other all the time, or ever if it comes to that.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

This is not "in the heat of the moment", but the real expression of her pent-up grievances against Moskvina!

You are aware of Boikova having 'pent-up grievances' against Moskvina? Exactly what are those pent-up grievances?

 

[Sweet Dream]

You are aware of Boikova having 'pent-up grievances' against Moskvina? Exactly what are those pent-up grievances?

Are you asking me to show you any written evidence now?

After winning one of the Russian Cups this season, Kozlovskii shouted loudly on the ice “This Is Our Place” or something like that, and later he repeated exactly the same words to a journalist. After this incident, Galliamov even asked him to apologize. The reason for that was that M/G had already beaten them more than once domestically, IIRC.

No need to go any further on such vaguely familiar Russian dramas here.

 

[Blades of Passion]

S/H are in no way the greatest pair 'ever.' They would be rivaled by a number of other absolute greats of all time, including their own coaches, Shen/Zhao, and other unforgettable teams such as Gordeeva/Grinkov; Babilonia/Gardner; Mishkutenok/Dmitriev; Savchenko/Szolkowy; Bereshnaya/Sikharulidze; Rodnina/Zaitsev; Sale/Pelletier; Pang/Tong; Underhill/Martini; Belousova/Protopopov

You're underrating S/H and overrating the others, including Gordeeva/Grinkov. When they won the Olympics in 1988, they were very young and didn't have great artistry. They became more mature over the years, but they also became more inconsistent technically after gaining artistic refinement, and they were never able to do SBS Triple jump. Grinkov was never the most expressive performer either. Han displays more versatility. For that matter, so does Sui compared to Gordeeva. G/G did have really stunning glide over the ice and unison though, that aspect of their skating is probably still the best ever in Pairs.

S/H throughout their career they've shown some the best technical ability ever (only pair to do multiple clean Quads in a program) and some of the best artistry ever (Blues for Klook, Bridge over Troubled Water). In terms of intricacy of choreography they are unmatched by anyone else to date too.