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If we take these PCS scores, but keep their final TES scores, S/H would win but veerrry narrowly. Literally by 0,18 points.
2021 Worlds: Pairs' FS "Thoughts and Observations"
- Thread starter gsk8
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They will need it, lets hope they will put their Tantrums aside. M/G have 3S, 3F, 3Lz . Boikova/Koz SBS jumping axis and technique are not very good.
For one, that's already a larger gap than what each has been given overall. So that wasn't any particular bit of snark from you, IMO.
For another, here:
SP:
M/G: 75.79 - 35.02 + 34.8 = 75.57
S/H: 77.62 - 37.09 + 37.2 = 77.73
LP:
M/G: 151.80 - 72.84 + 71.60 = 150.56
S/H: 148.09 - 73.99 + 74.40 = 148.50
Totals:
M/G: 226.13
S/H: 226.23
I agree. But would you say she is slightly less objective, much less objective, or drastically less objective than the Russian judge who tied Mishina/Galliamov on SP PCS with them, or gave Tarasova/Morozov more PCS than them in the SP, or even considering their scores for their own athletes - apparently believes that T/M, M/G, and B/K were pretty dead even in terms of PCS in the LP?
Anyway. My intention was only to give props for Sui/Han's PCS because it is incredible. IDK if they "deserved" it or not, that would take a rescore, but I don't see the point in being told that the Chinese judge believed this or that or the "experts" are wrong. Sorry.
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Oh, now you want to use SP argument, I see. I can't remember that there were unhappy voices about 2 point pcs gap between S/H and M/G after SP.The point was about PCSWhat point is being made by saying that the Chinese judge knows the "true gap" in PCS unlike the "experts" here? Replacing the factored PCS for the SP and LP each with the Chinese judge's PCS scores will give S/H the victory.
ETA: Russian judge on the other hand thought S/H and M/G did equally well in terms of PCS in the SP, so they won't be able to give S/H the PCS based victory. Maybe the Russian judge knows better than the "experts" on the thread.
I took a look. Yes, if all the judges scored BOTH SP and FP like the Chinese judge did S/H would have won with 0.1 point advantage. And the Chinese judge is the ultimate example because ALL her FP pcs grades for S/H were discarded. So much for "wuzrobbed" sentiment.
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What amazing insight you have.
Nobody in the world has a different level of talent or skill at anything, everyone is just exactly the same! My newborn nephew and my nearly deceased grandma can get out there and show the same level of skating and performance ability as Sui/Han! You're SO right!
Your words. Didn't "wuzrob" them initially, I clearly said IDK. Asked you how it was a valid point, at all, to use the Chinese judge's beliefs. Which you can't since they do think overall S/H deserved it on PCS /shrug
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Yes, 0.1 point difference - our math skills are at par.Totals:
M/G: 226.13
S/H: 226.23
I agree. But would you say she is slightly less objective, much less objective, or drastically less objective than the Russian judge who tied Mishina/Galliamov on SP PCS with them, or gave Tarasova/Morozov more PCS than them in the SP, or even considering their scores for their own athletes - apparently believes that T/M, M/G, and B/K were dead even in terms of PCS in the LP?
I don't want to bring Russian judge argument as it adds nothing to the discussion. Judges gave better marks to their skaters - that's the axiom. My argument was that even the Chinese judge who made some very dubious calls did not see "wuzrobbed" situation here like some local "experts" did.
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I am over the moon for M/G, especially as for many, Mishina has been my sentimental favourite since her split with her last partner. They skated both programs clean and their SP is just fantastic, they should keep it for the Olympic season. Initially I simply hoped for them to get on the podium, but I'm very happy they got the gold here. They still have a lot of potential, so I'm eager to see where this pair goes in the future.
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I do apologise, if you were unable to take a reasonable inference, maybe I should have posted the following:
No pair in the top four was on a different level from any of the others and Mishina/Galliamov won this competition.
In my credit, at least I am able to look at a list of scores and determine who won.
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Question: when was the last time a pair (as in, elite figure skating pairs team, not someone’s nephew+grandma) debuted at Worlds and won it?
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Gordeeva/Grinkov in 86?
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I know a lot of people are upset Sui/Han didn't win (including me as a long-time fan), but looking at the performances again, it could not be more apparent that M/G deserved gold. S/H had a significant error in their SP and errors on their SBS jumps in the LP too, with rotation/step out/two foot issues on all of them. M/G on the other hand executed the hardest/highest value SBS element ever executed at senior Worlds (as far as I can recall).
I really don't think a pair that doesn't cleanly execute at least one SBS jumping pass deserves the world pairs title, even if the rest of S/H's elements were very well done and their artistry was superb (although they weren't peak level performance, which is understandable). M/G were well trained and were the only team to give two clean programs, whereas all the others had 2 or more mistakes across their programs.
I really don't think a pair that doesn't cleanly execute at least one SBS jumping pass deserves the world pairs title, even if the rest of S/H's elements were very well done and their artistry was superb (although they weren't peak level performance, which is understandable). M/G were well trained and were the only team to give two clean programs, whereas all the others had 2 or more mistakes across their programs.
Clean doesnt mean you should win. Boyang skated 2 clean programs with 6 clean quads in 2017 but the judges still didnt give him the same level of pcs as Javier or Chan even though they werent clean. And it shouldnt have happened here. Their artistry is still the level of junior pairs. Its just atrocious and disgusting how they can just inflate their pcs to win when skaters from other countries need to work years and years to build up to the level of artistry to be receiving the pcs they worked for.
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Except that's not true, Sui/Han are clearly better in nearly every aspect of skating.
They did a clean SBS 3T+2T. Her small mistake on the extra 2T afterward is hardly some kind of game-changing thing, given this competition. Their 3S wasn't that bad either, it simply got hammered by an undeserved < call.
Her euler was messy and short, looking more like a step-out, it shouldn't have been given base value. I suppose the combo could still be considered the most difficult at a Worlds (which is irrelevant to the overall scoring, mind you) if we also discredit Stolbova's toe-axeled 1T in the 3T+3T+1T at 2016 Worlds, but Stolbova/Klimova still have the hardest SBS element with their 3T+3T+2T, and they were also more in unison. M/G aren't together on that second 3S.
Exactly! And for reference Sui/Han skating a technically perfect program with a Quad Twist at 2015 Worlds were scored 2.5 points lower on PCS compared to Duhamel/Radford with mistakes. So what happened at this Worlds with the scores? It's obvious - the young challengers were Russian.
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You call this 3S not that bad when she was on a lean, short of rotation and touched her foot down, and even he had a bit of stumble after his: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3jIYoU1G6E#t=3h40m20s I suppose her 3T in the SP was not that bad either?
Also to say Mishina's Euler was more of a stepout - it clearly wasn't a stepout - it was intentional and how she executes her Euler. Sure, not the most aesthetic but absolutely no reason it shouldn't get the BV of the Eu. Agreed with the lack of unison, but to get two pairs skaters to do a jump in unison is hard enough let alone two skaters that different in size doing a 3S+eu+3S combination. Sui/Han's RBO-RFI to mohawk entry into their SBS salchows was also out of unison as well. Their 3T+2T+2T combo was slow and awkward - it's frankly miraculous she got hers after the warmup, and got the 3T called on the quarter. And zero speed on Sui's 3rd jump https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3jIYoU1G6E#t=3h43m41s compared to M/G who had tons of flow on the exit their 3-jump combo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3jIYoU1G6E#t=3h33m56s
M/G's 3Ts were also sensational. I get S/H do a lot of elements way better than M/G but call a spade a spade when it comes to the SBS jumps, which were clearly the deciding factor here. S/H's SBS elements were weaker than they're capable of, and it's okay to acknowledge that.
This is ultimately a sport at the end of the day and, the whole competition considered, M/G outskated everyone else and were the worthy champs.
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It wasn't as bad as it was scored, because it didn't deserve the < call. She was within the margin, doing a solid takeoff without excessive pre-rotation, and coming down 1/4 short at most; the blade is clearly not short of the perpendicular sideways position when she lands. Sure it could be a lot better, but the points must be accurate or else there is no reason to use them.
It visually looks a lot like a stepout, more than a flowing and complete jump, and it was factually underrotated to the point of deserving a < call, which for a euler it gets 0 points. It's only worth .5 anyway, but again, all these small points matter.
Nobody said the jumps weren't weaker than they were capable of. The problem is in thinking those elements should automatically be the deciding factor. S/H aren't required to do perfect SBS jumps to still be better than the competition. They aren't up against top teams in their prime. These young challengers were too rough around the edges to deserve to win, unless S/H really blew it...which they didn't.
Just a nitpick, I think they changed the rules so that you can't get < on Eulers anymore... it's either rotated, or << (and hence zero points).
Yeah, I was reviewing it, and was kind of stunned it got the <? I think they've let much worse pass for 'q' lol. I agree with the 3T+2T+2T<, but not the 3S<.
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In my time, the only pair who were a class above their elite contemporaries were Gordeeva & Grinkov. Sui & Han are terrific, but they do not really qualify for this accolade.
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Yes, we are all "reviewers" here. I also "reviewed" that element. For me her landing was extremely poorly executed - even the Chinese judge gave it -3
Was it < or q? Who cares if it is 88 or 91 degrees of underrotation? It was a bad SBS jump. 3 out of 3 their SBS jumps were poorly executed. Do it better next time and then you will have a clear shot at gold. It's very simple.
