Artur Dmetriyev on Tutberidze's methods, state of Russian skating

[KOBOT37]

I really don't understand why Russian coaches chose only 150-155 cm girls to teach what Russians call 'ultra-c elements' :dev3:

Maiia Kromykh is around 1.7m and can do 4S.

Alexandra Trusova should be around 1.6 now after having gained a lot during this season and she can do every quad apart of 4lo.

Alina Zagitova is 160+ and is said to be learning quad.

Russian coaches didn't choose to teach quads to only 155> kids, kids who land quads (3A,Valieva,Zhilina,Akatyeva) simply are still growing up and haven't crossed 155cm (Trusova most likely did and soon so will Sherbakova but it was during this season).

Eteri has been skeptical of grown up women learning quads from scratch,not relatively tall girls who have learned it after growing up landing them, but I guess we will see how it goes with Zagitova.

So wait until at least, next season, until start making theories about height.

 

[KOBOT37]

Or maybe it has nothing to do with "systematic" programs. In fact, if "systematic" training were so effective, the Russian men would be more competitive.

Figure skating simply isn't popular enough among Russian kids, for boys it's hockey first and everything else later.

While for girls, FS is by far the most popular sport.

One country's domination in the sport will not last forever, as history has shown.

US Basketball, NZ rugby Union, Japanese Judo federation and Mrs Irina Viner-Usmanova say Hi

also there are probably few Olympic disciplines where winning against anyone else and losing to Chinese equals gold.

 

[flanker]

It is, isn't it? Young You is 165 cm and can jump 3A while Miki Ando is 162 cm and could jump 4S. I really don't understand why Russian coaches chose only 150-155 cm girls to teach what Russians call 'ultra-c elements' :dev3:

They "chose" (rather "started to develop") the girls to start with quads at the age of 11-13. Surprisingly, at the age of 11-13 the average height of a girl isn't bigger than 150 cm . So, whoever they chose, they did not "chose" them with the idea they won't grow up anymore. Still, the problem of the previous opinion is that the main thing is not height but the training itself.

I don't know... Lady skaters of Carolina Kostner or Kaetlyn Osmond's height are so rare... So ladies in majority are of 'small body'... Midori Ito was famous of her powerful jumps and she's just 145cm.

Yes, they generally are, just like the basketball players are generally tall. I esp. like when e.g. Gabby Daleman is just 1.55m tall, but that's not the problem, the problem is only when a russian girl is somewhere between 1.50-1.60m

 

[icetug]

They "chose" (rather "started to develop") the girls to start with quads at the age of 11-13. Surprisingly, at the age of 11-13 the average height of a girl isn't bigger than 150 cm . So, whoever they chose, they did not "chose" them with the idea they won't grow up anymore. Still, the problem of the previous opinion is that the main thing is not height but the training itself.

I'm sorry, but do you suggest that Russian coaches don't have the basic knowledge on human body development (and a percentile chart is a black magic for them)?

Let's assume you are right and they take to intensive training kids of full range of percentiles - how to explain that after years of training huge number of ladies are in 10-25 percentile while just a few of them are above average height (which is 165 cm now in Russia)?

I esp. like when e.g. Gabby Daleman is just 1.55m tall, but that's not the problem, the problem is only when a russian girl is somewhere between 1.50-1.60m

Height is not a problem. The problem arises when sb tries to prove that it doesn't count for jumping ability (and that the physique doesn't count for rotational jumping ability). That's all. (And as both of the factors count, I have a huge respect to Makar Ignatov who jumps nice quads basically against phisical conditions).

 

[KOBOT37]

Let's assume you are right and they take to intensive training kids of full range of percentiles - how to explain that after years of training huge number of ladies are in 10-25 percentile while just a few of them are above average height (which is 165 cm now in Russia)?

citation needed.

Sotskova, Pogorilaya, Kromykh, Tsurskaya, Radionova,Guliakova and Konstantinova are all above 165.

Also tons of skaters I can easily remember are above 160.

 

[Mathman]

I don't understand why the topic of height is generating controversy and discussion. Kristi Yamaguchi (150 cm as an adult) famously said decades ago, "I am glad that there is a sport (figure skating) where it is an advantage to be short, since most sports are the opposite."

 

[KOBOT37]

Liza, Who is probably most profilic under-155cm Russian skater cant qualify for GS 2 years straight. Just saying

 

[KOBOT37]

I don't understand why the topic of height is generating controversy and discussion. Kristi Yamaguchi (150 cm as an adult) famously said decades ago, "I am glad that there is a sport (figure skating) where it is an advantage to be short, since most sports are the opposite."

It's an advantage, just like it's an advantage to be tall in basketball, especially if you play at 4-5.

But not being 215+cm like Shaq or Yao doesn't mean you can't be very good(or even best) PF or center and in FS being taller than 155 or even 160 isn't death of competitive career.

and statement about Russian coaches only teaching <155cm kids to jump quads is factually incorrect, aside of Kromykh,Trusova, who during season definitely grew past 155 can and does land quads. Highly likely, all of 3A will grow past 155, possibly even 160.

 

[flanker]

I'm sorry, but do you suggest that Russian coaches don't have the basic knowledge on human body development (and a percentile chart is a black magic for them)?

Facepalm don't help here

I'm not suggesting anything, unlike from the constant suggesting that only Russian girls somehow are young and small and that's why they do quads succesfully, while the other countries probably have only the skaters 25 and over, mature, with amazing skating skills and all this blahblah, but unable to learn quads. And that's what (in their eyes) ruins figure skating

Now without the sarcasm, I've said before the thing is the training itself.

Let's assume you are right and they take to intensive training kids of full range of percentiles - how to explain that after years of training huge number of ladies are in 10-25 percentile while just a few of them are above average height (which is 165 cm now in Russia)?

The primal selection is just with the girls who even start with figure skating, so it's done long before somebody even start to think about learning quads. To continue the previous idea, there are skaters all around the world who are the same height and similar body constitution, who could be potentially good (quad) jumpers, but somehow only the few truly sicceeed. The fact that they are often in Russia is not because they are somehow smaller, younger (every skater above 20 was once a skater under 15), lighter etc., but because they train it obviously more efectively.

Height is not a problem. The problem arises when sb tries to prove that it doesn't count for jumping ability (and that the physique doesn't count for rotational jumping ability). That's all. (And as both of the factors count, I have a huge respect to Makar Ignatov who jumps nice quads basically against phisical conditions).

See above. Everytime somebody starts to criticize the quads from the point "but they are younger and smaller, that's why they do quads and we can't" (suggesting there is something unfair in it or watever), it's the moment when I do facepalm

 

[Mathman]

It's an advantage, just like it's an advantage to be tall in basketball, especially if you play at 4-5.

But not being 215+cm like Shaq or Yao doesn't mean you can't be very good (or even best) PF or center and in FS being taller than 155 or even 160 isn't death of competitive career. ...

That's what I am saying. This is obvious. Why is there even a discussion, much less an argument, about it?

 

[Edwin]

That's what I am saying. This is obvious. Why is there even a discussion, much less an argument, about it?

And being this tall has detrimental effects on the health also while jumping, dunking, slamming on hard courts. But a well filled bank account more than makes up for any discomfort.

 

[Sugar Coated]

And being this tall has detrimental effects on the health also while jumping, dunking, slamming on hard courts. But a well filled bank account more than makes up for any discomfort.

Where is your evidence for this? As someone who was involved with the sport at a high level, this is not my understanding at all. I don’t think the tall are anymore likely to have injuries or health problems. In fact, in my experience it’s the guards (shorter players) more likely to have major knee injuries as they are doing more frequent and higher speed changes of direction.

 

[YuBluByMe]

That's what I am saying. This is obvious. Why is there even a discussion, much less an argument, about it?

I don’t think anyone’s pretending that a small stature isn’t a physical advantage in figure skating. (Or at least I hope not.) Many female skaters have such a frame. Yet the Russian ladies are often singled out as having such a huge advantage due to their body type. That, I believe, is the argument: you don’t have an advantage if hundreds of others have similar frames. Therefore, it can’t be that, can it?

 

[jenaj]

Figure skating simply isn't popular enough among Russian kids, for boys it's hockey first and everything else later.

While for girls, FS is by far the most popular sport.



US Basketball, NZ rugby Union, Japanese Judo federation and Mrs Irina Viner-Usmanova say Hi

also there are probably few Olympic disciplines where winning against anyone else and losing to Chinese equals gold.

“The” sport is figure skating.

 

[Good Vibes Only]

All of these girls doing quads that are being argued about are still young. They will grow and develop more. If you want to see their growth over the years look up pictures of them from their first junior season and you will see a difference. The 3A are only 15-16 years old, give the poor girls a break. You also have to consider genetics as well. I am pretty sure that Anna Shcherbakova’s mom is on the small side and that her dad is not super tall either, so most likely Anna will not grow up to be super tall. I don’t remember much about Alexandra or Aliona’s parents, but I am sure that they will grow and develop more. Then there are the novice and other juniors jumping quads. Once again with time they will also grow taller. You can’t expect them to be fully grown at the ages 11-16 years old. That is just not realistic. I am sorry, but I had to say that in defense of these girls.

I just found a picture of the girls with their mothers:
https://twitter.com/stepbuks/status/1252022264947789838?s=21

 

[Amei]

All of these girls doing quads that are being argued about are still young. They will grow and develop more. If you want to see their growth over the years look up pictures of them from their first junior season and you will see a difference. The 3A are only 15-16 years old, give the poor girls a break. You also have to consider genetics as well. I am pretty sure that Anna Shcherbakova’s mom is on the small side and that her dad is not super tall either, so most likely Anna will not grow up to be super tall. I don’t remember much about Alexandra or Aliona’s parents, but I am sure that they will grow and develop more. Then there are the novice and other juniors jumping quads. Once again with time they will also grow taller. You can’t expect them to be fully grown at the ages 11-16 years old. That is just not realistic. I am sorry, but I had to say that in defense of these girls.

The argument against them is their current size in relation to their age - that they are only able to do these jumps because they are prepubescent, once puberty hits they will lose them.

 

[Good Vibes Only]

The argument against them is their current size in relation to their age - that they are only able to do these jumps because they are prepubescent, once puberty hits they will lose them.

Oh whoops, I guess that’s what I get for not looking back at the original post that started the argument. Sorry