Asian and American Champs instead of 4CC?

[cohen-esque]

Man, people just really won't let this utter MYTH die, will they?

USFS sends a B team - in Olympic years ONLY, because of the proximity to the Olympics.

Every other year they very definitely name an A team.

Now, certain skaters - like Ashley Wagner - have some deluded notion that they're too good for 4CC and choose not to go. But the USFS definitely does not treat 4CC as a 2nd tier comp.

Oh, and: Australia is not the 4th continent. Oceania is. If New Zealand had skaters with the minimums they could send them. And we were guests of the Asian Games. Our skaters couldn't win medals.

Ashley Wagner wasn’t too good to go to 4CCs and defeat Mao Asada for the title, apparently. And while she usually withdraws they didn’t even (bother to?) assign her to the team in 2017.

But while USFSA generally sends a strong team to Four Continents, it’s also true that that initial team is often not actually there in the end (for various reasons), and I think they’ve tended to assign a weaker substitute list most years than they do for Worlds. None of which helps contribute to its image very much.

It doesn’t help that the women, for a long time our most popular discipline, have often performed relatively poorly at 4CC.

 

[GrandmaCC]

Man, people just really won't let this utter MYTH die, will they?

USFS sends a B team - in Olympic years ONLY, because of the proximity to the Olympics.

Every other year they very definitely name an A team.

Now, certain skaters - like Ashley Wagner - have some deluded notion that they're too good for 4CC and choose not to go. But the USFS definitely does not treat 4CC as a 2nd tier comp.

Oh, and: Australia is not the 4th continent. Oceania is. If New Zealand had skaters with the minimums they could send them. And we were guests of the Asian Games. Our skaters couldn't win medals.

I was just asking. Hence the question mark. I’ve read plenty of people refer to it as a 2nd teir meet. Typically when they’re complaining about selection criteria and how someone who really brought it at 4CC’s is left off a team.

As far as Asian Games go - we were guests this last time, but in future games we will be eligible for medals.

Oceania as a continent....well, that I did not know, but I can’t say I’m ashamed of that, whoever decided that a bunch of countries separated by water could constitute a continent must have skipped over geography in school/been drunk whilst naming the competition.

 

[SnowWhite]

I was just asking. Hence the question mark. I’ve read plenty of people refer to it as a 2nd teir meet. Typically when they’re complaining about selection criteria and how someone who really brought it at 4CC’s is left off a team.

As far as Asian Games go - we were guests this last time, but in future games we will be eligible for medals.

Oceania as a continent....well, that I did not know, but I can’t say I’m ashamed of that, whoever decided that a bunch of countries separated by water could constitute a continent must have skipped over geography in school/been drunk whilst naming the competition.

Oceania is more of a geopolitical region than continent, as far as I know. Australia the continent includes Australia the country, Tasmania and New Guinea. Technically, New Zealand is on the submerged continent of Zealandia.

 

[MalAssada]

I'm struggling to understand the argument that 4CC is too close to Worlds. There's a month between them, which, while only being half of what those in Europe have, is way more than some skaters get during the GP, sometimes even competing in two different continents in a week.

So what is it? Are they simply more tired by the end of the season, or are they "saving" themselves for worlds? I am a lurker in the US gymnastics community and they are complaining there is now a one month gap between Regionals and Nationals for Level 10, which seems to increase the injury level. Are the sports so different?

These are all genuine questions, by the way. Sorry if they seem stupid.

 

[nocturnalis]

Man, people just really won't let this utter MYTH die, will they?

USFS sends a B team - in Olympic years ONLY, because of the proximity to the Olympics.

Every other year they very definitely name an A team.

Now, certain skaters - like Ashley Wagner - have some deluded notion that they're too good for 4CC and choose not to go. But the USFS definitely does not treat 4CC as a 2nd tier comp.

Oh, and: Australia is not the 4th continent. Oceania is. If New Zealand had skaters with the minimums they could send them. And we were guests of the Asian Games. Our skaters couldn't win medals.

Ashley's reason with not going to 4CCs has to with travel time. She says that she can't prepare properly for Worlds if she goes to 4CCs. That's an acceptable reason. You literally made the "too good for 4CC" part up. For someone who gets all upset anytime someone breathes an unfavorable opinion about Max Aaron, you are being quite liberal with the truth.

 

[GrandmaCC]

I'm struggling to understand the argument that 4CC is too close to Worlds. There's a month between them, which, while only being half of what those in Europe have, is way more than some skaters get during the GP, sometimes even competing in two different continents in a week.

So what is it? Are they simply more tired by the end of the season, or are they "saving" themselves for worlds? I am a lurker in the US gymnastics community and they are complaining there is now a one month gap between Regionals and Nationals for Level 10, which seems to increase the injury level. Are the sports so different?

These are all genuine questions, by the way. Sorry if they seem stupid.

I would say travel time/jet lag/acclimating to a new hemisphere etc would be a factor as far as 4CC’s go which the European competitors don’t have to factor in.

For example, if you’re flying from Australia - the only country which is also a continent but also now apparently a region which can be tacked on to any other part of the world - you’re looking at around 15 hours flight time to get to LA. Add on a wait in LAX before flying to New York (where we’ll pretend the competition is being held), you’re up to about 24 hours of travel time.
Which actually isn’t as bad as it sounds thanks to the international date line thing, it’s technically like just pulling a realllly long day.
Going home though, that sucks, that’s when you “miss” a day and even your coach will tell you to stay home and rest already.

If you were a skater without a lot of funding who had to purchase cheap flights, and if the comp were in a country other than the US (or you’d decided to try and be a hero and fly through Dubai or something), you’d be way more exhausted.

I know I would think twice about tracking around the world, getting tired, inhaling germs, changing my diet, maybe spending money, if I knew that I’d barely have recovered from the trip before packing up to haul myself around the world again for Worlds.

Europeans, meanwhile, can potentially just hire a car if they want to since everywhere a European championship could be held is in relatively close proximity.

Have you read Aly Raisman’s book? She describes travelling to Australia in terms that most northern hemispherians I know would use lol (as in, would’ve been easier to fly to outer space).

 

[cohen-esque]

I'm struggling to understand the argument that 4CC is too close to Worlds. There's a month between them, which, while only being half of what those in Europe have, is way more than some skaters get during the GP, sometimes even competing in two different continents in a week.

So what is it? Are they simply more tired by the end of the season, or are they "saving" themselves for worlds? I am a lurker in the US gymnastics community and they are complaining there is now a one month gap between Regionals and Nationals for Level 10, which seems to increase the injury level. Are the sports so different?

These are all genuine questions, by the way. Sorry if they seem stupid.

In the case of US skaters, you also need to consider how close it is to Nationals, not just Worlds. There’s a two to three week gap between the two events usually. It’s not insurmountable at all: it’s about the same between the GPF and most countries’ Nationals. But it does add some awkwardness to the scheduling.

 

[SnowWhite]

In the case of US skaters, you also need to consider how close it is to Nationals, not just Worlds. There’s a two to three week gap between the two events usually. It’s not insurmountable at all: it’s about the same between the GPF and most countries’ Nationals. But it does add some awkwardness to the scheduling.

Adding on to this, 4CC scheduling is a much bigger issue in Olympic years, because the Olympics are earlier than Worlds, even though 4CC gets moved a bit earlier too. That's why most top skaters do 4CC in normal years, but often skip in Olympic years. Some of the top asian skaters may do it, but when you add in the travel, it's not really doable for top skaters training in NA (since it's mostly held in Asia). Especially if you might be part of the team event.

This year, 4CC was the 22-28th in Taipei. The team event started on the 9th, with practices a few days before. And if you aren't doing the TE, then do you go home and then back to Asia and deal with all that jet lag and exhaustion or do you stay, possibly away from your coach and/or without good training options and ice time. Euros is a week earlier, and for many less of a problem travel wise.

 

[yume]

Ashley Wagner wasn’t too good to go to 4CCs and defeat Mao Asada for the title, apparently.

Since she's withdrew the next 5 years i assume that's why people can say that she thinks she's to good to go again.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Oh, and: Australia is not the 4th continent. Oceania is. If New Zealand had skaters with the minimums they could send them. And we were guests of the Asian Games. Our skaters couldn't win medals.

Oceania as a continent....well, that I did not know, but I can’t say I’m ashamed of that, whoever decided that a bunch of countries separated by water could constitute a continent must have skipped over geography in school/been drunk whilst naming the competition.

Oceania is more of a geopolitical region than continent, as far as I know. Australia the continent includes Australia the country, Tasmania and New Guinea. Technically, New Zealand is on the submerged continent of Zealandia.

Oh, I love the way that this conversation is showing the differences in the way people in different parts of the world are taught to refer to the big island continent and the smaller islands nearby.

Here, you NEVER hear the term "Oceania" used to refer to this part of the world. That term is only ever used to refer to the country of the same name in George Orwell's book "Nineteen Eighty-Four". (And, funnily enough, that Oceania encompasses 3½ of the 5 continents that have sent skaters to 4 Continents).

The term that we are taught to use for the whole region (Australia and the other islands) is "Australasia". But, laziness means that "Australia" is the most commonly used term. (Yeah, that one extra syllable is just too much for most people to cope with! )

Can I just add that I never knew about Zealandia before now. I always thought New Zealand was the result of the Australian Plate and the Pacific Plate colliding. I didn't realise that it was a submerged continent in it's own right. So, thank you SnowWhite for enlightening me. That was really interesting to find out!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Grin]

I think 4CC+Russia will be a really nice format.
It will be also more easy to compare European and 4CC judging panels.

 

[SnowWhite]

Oh, I love the way that this conversation is showing the differences in the way people in different parts of the world are taught to refer to the big island continent and the smaller islands nearby.

Here, you NEVER hear the term "Oceania" used to refer to this part of the world. That term is only ever used to refer to the country of the same name in George Orwell's book "Nineteen Eighty-Four". (And, funnily enough, that Oceania encompasses 3½ of the 5 continents that have sent skaters to 4 Continents).

The term that we are taught to use for the whole region (Australia and the other islands) is "Australasia". But, laziness means that "Australia" is the most commonly used term. (Yeah, that one extra syllable is just too much for most people to cope with! )

Can I just add that I never knew about Zealandia before now. I always thought New Zealand was the result of the Australian Plate and the Pacific Plate colliding. I didn't realise that it was a submerged continent in it's own right. So, thank you SnowWhite for enlightening me. That was really interesting to find out!

CaroLiza_fan

You can thank Wikipedia for that. And when I was younger, we heard Australasia, but Oceania seems to be more common now (around here).

 

[cohen-esque]

From the US and Canada, I’ve literally only heard of “Australia” in the context of some aDNA and population genetic studies about the Americas and in that sense, the authors often included coastal Asia— China, Korea, etc— and generally Malaysia/Indonesia. It was a frustratingly poorly defined term that did not really mean the same thing in a geographical sense that “Australia” or “Oceania” would. I’ve NEVER heard it in a lay context living here, but I’m not from Canada originally.

I have heard Oceania, which I think is picking up traction in North America, in both countries semi-frequently. But usually, people just say Australia.

And to move this back on topic, I’d very much like to see a 4CC in Oceania— make everyone else skip a dozen time zones for once.

 

[sheskates]

Perhaps a new name would be better, Pacific Rim's? Works for gymnastics.

 

[GrandmaCC]

Oh, I love the way that this conversation is showing the differences in the way people in different parts of the world are taught to refer to the big island continent and the smaller islands nearby.

Here, you NEVER hear the term "Oceania" used to refer to this part of the world. That term is only ever used to refer to the country of the same name in George Orwell's book "Nineteen Eighty-Four". (And, funnily enough, that Oceania encompasses 3½ of the 5 continents that have sent skaters to 4 Continents).

The term that we are taught to use for the whole region (Australia and the other islands) is "Australasia". But, laziness means that "Australia" is the most commonly used term. (Yeah, that one extra syllable is just too much for most people to cope with! )

Can I just add that I never knew about Zealandia before now. I always thought New Zealand was the result of the Australian Plate and the Pacific Plate colliding. I didn't realise that it was a submerged continent in it's own right. So, thank you SnowWhite for enlightening me. That was really interesting to find out!

CaroLiza_fan

Brilliantly said, CaroLiza_fan and I’d also like to add in my thanks to SnowWhite!

Australasia I’ve heard of here, but mainly only in sporting terms, and typically for junior level competitions.
Sometimes politicians and businessmen will mention the “Australasian region”, but not often, and the politicians will only do so if they’re trying to join us in with another country who is doing well economically/justify a vacation to Asia by disguising it as a legitimate business trip.

Oceania too is really only thrown around for sporting usage.

We’re more likely to say Asia-Pacific region, but again, really not that often, certainly not anywhere near as often as you’d hear “The America’s”, or “North America”.

Honestly, even our best & brightest can barely pronounce “Australia” properly - it’s “Straya” 99% of the time lol.

Incredible how much more the Northerners know about our geography than we do! (we aren’t renowned for our education system here...it’s about at the level of our skating - well, worse now that we’ve got Kalaini, Harley& Katia etc on the scene! ).

Re Ashley - I recall TSL discussing one of the most recent 4CC’s and saying that there’s NO WAY they, were they her, have flown for the time required and then had to train/live/compete in the “Asian” (might have been Tipai?) country the meet was held in.

Given also how long the season is, I most certainly agree.

 

[GrandmaCC]

Ashley's reason with not going to 4CCs has to with travel time. She says that she can't prepare properly for Worlds if she goes to 4CCs. That's an acceptable reason. You literally made the "too good for 4CC" part up. For someone who gets all upset anytime someone breathes an unfavorable opinion about Max Aaron, you are being quite liberal with the truth.

AMEN!! Wish I’d read this before writing about Ashley and the amount of travel that’d be required of her were she to go.

The proximity to worlds (and nationals for some), especially combined with the travel, really does make for a huge ask before heading into a world championship.
If you’re older or just not able to bounce back well from all that flying & competing, or are trying to recoup from nationals so that you can peak again at worlds, why would you want to go?
Especially when everyone is going to a) critique you like crazy for not being perfect at 4cc’s, b), critique you like crazy if you do well at 4CC’s but not as good at worlds, or especially in Ashley’s case, c) regard you as The Person who can retain a 3 Lady team for worlds the year after....talk about loosing all round!

I think it’s smart to know what competition schedule you prefer and stick to it, best way to optimise your performance. Also gives others a shot at international competition. Nothing wrong with that.