Bringing back figures to Juniors?

[ewdokia]

In another thread I mentioned that ISU needs to do something in juniors, either to abolish quads for Juniors at all or at least limit their amount or bring back figures for Juniors: as a result kids would have less time to practice jumps, as they would also need some time to practice figures.

Personally I’m scared when I see now even 12, 13 year old girls practicing quads. And I’m not talking about trying out for fun, but practicing on a regular basis with intention to include it in their programs. The direction male skating is turning to, we can also expect that male juniors will start to practice quads earlier and earlier. If this trend goes on, I fear, no longer then ten years and only few skaters will even make it to seniors. I don’t want to watch a sport, where most kids end up crippled. Actually even now I’m worried how many injuries can be seen already in juniors.

After practice I also talked about it to my coach. He also confirmed that difficult jumps like quads or 3-axles are very harmful for younger skaters in particular as they practice during stages of active growth. Bringing back figures would ensure that kids will have a good technical basis and command of the blade once they move up to seniors. Due to this it might be also easier for them to learn harder jumps. Plus good body command as it is taught by figures in particular might also help girls to keep their jumps through puberty.

The main reasoning for abolishing figures in 1991 was that it’s boring for the audience and people don’t want to watch. On the other hand junior skating is mostly watched by die hard figure skating fans and not the casual viewer, so I don’t think this argument would apply for juniors.

What do you think about this idea?

 

[rosy14]

Totally agree with you.
All these juvenile jumps risk to transform this beautiful sport in a circus of acrobats. Which is fine for circus lovers, but we're talking of sport, and an Olympic one !.
Learning figures can vastly improve juvenile skating skills, body control, getting focused and concentrated.
As you say, watching figures can be boring, but it doesn't need to be broadcast.

 

[gkelly]

Reintroducing figures in the form they existed through 1990, even at junior level and below, would require the following:

*Coaches in all ISU member federations who know how to teach figures skills

*Judges representing as many federations as possible who know how to judge figures -- preferably in all federations so they could judge the junior and lower events at national competitions

*Dedicated ice time available to all competitive skaters with clean ice and no one skating on the ice except people who are practicing figures

*At least two more full days of ice time and officials in place at large competitions, at least one more at smaller competitions, to allow for figures practice time and competitive events

If figures were to be reinstated, the sooner the better, while there are still some active coaches and officials who trained with figures and know how to teach and judge them. However, the ISU would have to do some massive retraining of all international judges who judge junior events, and every federation would have to retrain their own domestic officials and at least offer some kind of resources for younger/later starting coaches who need to learn the skills themselves before they can teach them.

Federations that had strong programs 30 years ago would have an advantage in reinstituting them. Federations that didn't exist 30 years ago or whose skaters suffered competitive back then because appropriate dedicated ice time was hard to come by will find themselves unable to keep up with the strong older federations.

What might make more sense would be to introduce a required element in junior short programs that requires some of the same kinds of skills that the school figures did, but that can be judged in the context of a competition phase that already exists and that can be practiced on regular freeskating sessions.

 

[blackey]

tbh I think the possible harm of quads on young kids are totally exaggerated. By far I don't think quads is even that related to injury like many people trying to put it? Girls start doing quads younger than boys is reasonable because girl's body grow faster than boys at that age. So a 15 yo boy (who would be senior eligible) doing quad is like the same as a 13 yo girl doing quad, not for everyone but generally speaking.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

If this happened, I think people would just bypass junior events. I like gkelly's suggestion to have a figures-like element in the program, although the difficulty with figures was the precision with which they must be executed, so it might be difficult to judge unless the panel came out onto the ice.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Good idea but I would never watch it. I agree with gkelly that maybe requiring a sort of "figures sequence" in one of the programs or even as part of a StSeq would be the way to go. Bring back the skills and give the kids a reason to practice them and maybe even require passing a figures test in order to become senior but I'm not thinking id like it the way it used to be. Just my opinion

 

[karne]

I always roll my eyes when people try to claim figures will fix every problem, as if skaters in the figures era never fluzted, lipped, underrotated, fell, were inconsistent etc. Figures is not some magic be-all-and-end-all-cure-all.

Additionally, banning quads/triple Axels at the Junior level will not stop them practicing it, no matter what you think. They will know that they will need them at the Senior level, they'll get in on them early.

tbh I think the possible harm of quads on young kids are totally exaggerated. By far I don't think quads is even that related to injury like many people trying to put it?

Sorry, but that's just head-in-the-sand rubbish. I love me some quads and triple Axels, but there's no doubting they put serious strain on the body. Massive strain. There's no doubt that several injuries in the last few years have been directly caused by quads. And growth plate injuries are a SERIOUS problem.

 

[mrrice]

Good idea but I would never watch it. I agree with gkelly that maybe requiring a sort of "figures sequence" in one of the programs or even as part of a StSeq would be the way to go. Bring back the skills and give the kids a reason to practice them and maybe even require passing a figures test in order to become senior but I'm not thinking id like it the way it used to be. Just my opinion

I agree. Trust me, it takes a lot to bore me when it comes to figure skating, dance, or singing. I always admired Jill Trenary for her ability to be great at figures and when I was learning to skate, we did practice figures. To me, showing figures would be like adding "Across The Floors" to Dancing With The Stars. I'd love it but, I think the audience would be bored and since the rules are difficult to understand for the casual viewer, I think it would be a ratings killer.

 

[gkelly]

Good idea but I would never watch it. I agree with gkelly that maybe requiring a sort of "figures sequence" in one of the programs or even as part of a StSeq would be the way to go.

The IJS rules for step sequences have certainly required some figures-related skills that had gotten lost during the 1990s/early 2000s when there were no requirements to demonstrate difficult turns or clear edges. Of course many judges rewarded them when they saw it, but with 6.0 judging there was no way of knowing exactly what judges saw or rewarded.

To encourage/reward even more precision, there could be an element where skaters need to skate two- or three-circle patterns twice on each foot with as much symmetry and tracing the same circles as possible, maybe with required turns each year, maybe with turns and other embellishments chosen by the skaters and counting toward levels. Maybe they'd be required to start the pattern from a standstill.

But no skaters would have completely clean ice after the warmup -- and the later skaters would have much worse ice for these purposes, more difficulty getting around two circles on one foot (for paragraph figures) from a single push. So skate order would have a big effect on the quality of the element.

If you allow intro steps or connecting the circles directly to other skating moves, so the pattern can be started with speed, then it would be a more even playing field but the move would be also be more freestyle-like.

And depending where on the ice the skaters put them as well as how long it's been since the warmup judges may not be able to see the tracings at all, let alone well enough to see how clean the turns or edges are.

Bring back the skills and give the kids a reason to practice them and maybe even require passing a figures test in order to become senior

The ISU can't really require tests: they're not in a position to administer them nor to to require and enforce each federation doing so. Some federations have elaborate testing structures already and others don't use any kind of tests at all.

If any federation were to require figures tests with judges examining the tracings on the ice for the same level of precision they expected of junior singles skaters up to 1990, again, they would need judges qualified to judge them, coaches qualified to teach that level of precision, and clean ice for every would-be competitive skater to practice on for hours per day.

I can't see that happening.

Also, remember, pair skaters never had to compete figures. Those who also trained as singles skaters did train them. some may have continued to train them even after committing to competing only in pairs, but some never trained school figures specifically at all.

And girls are more likely to land quads if thrown than on their own -- with greater impact from greater heights.

 

[Xen]

I always roll my eyes when people try to claim figures will fix every problem, as if skaters in the figures era never fluzted, lipped, underrotated, fell, were inconsistent etc. Figures is not some magic be-all-and-end-all-cure-all.

Additionally, banning quads/triple Axels at the Junior level will not stop them practicing it, no matter what you think. They will know that they will need them at the Senior level, they'll get in on them early.

a) Totally agree about figures fixing everything. It's not a magic pill.
b) However, I think banning quads at the junior level may bring about some change. The change isn't that younger skaters won't practice them (they probably will), but that the emphasis is then on skater health and longevity and ensuring the skater makes it to the senior ranks, otherwise all that hard work on the quads amount to nothing. Skaters/coaches/parents need to seriously consider when they start training quads, and the safest time window to do so for the sake of skater health and longevity.

Bringing back compulsory figures might not be a solution at all. Other than being boring, I can easily see how that could increase the total weekly practice time of a skater, which may lead to other issues. What would be nice is if the figures knowledge could be shared with all coaches, and then easily incorporated into the normal practice or warm up routines.

 

[Seren]

I don't see this as a reasonable solution. Remember, figures were eliminated over 25 years ago. The number of coaches and judges who can teach or mark them has diminished. Additionally, they would increase overall practice time and expense. What I wouldn't be opposed to is making things like the step sequence worth more because those skills are very challenging and skaters already do have to practice footwork.

What needs to happen is coaches and skaters need to get smart to training intensity and avoid overloading young skaters bodies. They are going to work on these harder jumps irregardless of whether or not they can do them in competition. Smarter training would solve many of the dangers of overtraining in athletes who are still growing.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I always roll my eyes when people try to claim figures will fix every problem, as if skaters in the figures era never fluzted, lipped, underrotated, fell, were inconsistent etc. Figures is not some magic be-all-and-end-all-cure-all.

For the most part, you're right. However, I'd probably say that flutzing was very uncommon with figures-era skaters. If I think about the top skaters who competed around 1992-1994 and did the lutz, who trained figures at some point, I can think of only Marina Kiehlmann who flutzed (and she started off as a competitive roller skater). IIRC Yamaguchi, Ito, Kerrigan, Harding, Bonaly, Hubert, Chen, Szewchenko, Sato, and Butyrskaya all had proper edge take-offs. Afterwards, you had more top skaters like Bobek, Lipinski, etc. who did flutz. I'm not sure if there's a causal relationship there, or if that was due to skaters having more time to train hard jumps at a younger age since they weren't practicing figures, but I think flutzing seems far more common amongst skaters who never trained figures.

 

[gkelly]

I think part of it was also that, in the figures era, if you didn't have a strong double lutz, you never attempted a triple. There were very few women doing triple lutzes before the 1990s.

Once figures were gone and jump count/jump difficulty became the biggest determinant of results, it seemed to become more valuable to include a flawed triple lutz than no lutz at all.

 

[moriel]

Sounds like useless and extremely boring, honestly.
I dont think figures will fix any problems, its more like going backwards and stalling the development of sport.
Its not like figures were so much helpful for skaters and made their performances so much better (honestly, when i watch most performances of the figure era, they look extremely unpolished and raw compared to what we see nowadays).

 

[ewdokia]

I don't see this as a reasonable solution. Remember, figures were eliminated over 25 years ago. The number of coaches and judges who can teach or mark them has diminished. Additionally, they would increase overall practice time and expense. What I wouldn't be opposed to is making things like the step sequence worth more because those skills are very challenging and skaters already do have to practice footwork.

What needs to happen is coaches and skaters need to get smart to training intensity and avoid overloading young skaters bodies. They are going to work on these harder jumps irregardless of whether or not they can do them in competition. Smarter training would solve many of the dangers of overtraining in athletes who are still growing.

Actually that would be the main argument for figures (or any similar solution) – the extra time needed to train figures, skating skills, etc., which can’t be invested in jumps. I think something needs to be done, and not only to protect the health of underage skaters, but also the beauty of this sport: for example it takes a lot more time to work on skating skills than a quad till you see improvement. But once a 4-3 combo is far more worth more than a perfect blade (maximum mark for skating skills 10 points, a well done 4-3 more than 14 points – why investing in practicing skating skills anymore?) Nathan Chen is a perfect example for me: artistry wise, he showed a lot of artistic potential as a junior but he mainly developed the jump area and given how this judging system works, he made the right decision. Basically this system does not encourage coaches to work “smart”.

Sounds like useless and extremely boring, honestly.
I dont think figures will fix any problems, its more like going backwards and stalling the development of sport.
Its not like figures were so much helpful for skaters and made their performances so much better (honestly, when i watch most performances of the figure era, they look extremely unpolished and raw compared to what we see nowadays).

I don’t think figures are THE solution and I’m sure ISU will never bring them back again. But if this sport continues with the direction it's moving to currently, apart from the injury issue, figure skating will loose it’s beauty, it will become ice jumping.

 

[karne]

I'd also like to point out that this sort of ban could have another, more detrimental factor on the sport: Juniors who, when they first arrive in Seniors, would be completely uncompetitive because they have not been allowed to try quads in competition (or they have had their training of such restricted) while these Seniors weren't restricted to such a rule and have been jumping quads since they were fifteen or whatever.

 

[andromache]

Banning quads for juniors seems silly - they'll still train them anyway.

Honestly, if PCS wasn't so closely correlated to TES, none of this would be a problem. People would be working their butts off to develop skating skills worth 7+ points instead of getting multiple types of quads and then getting those 7+ points in skating skills thrown in just because. It doesn't matter how consistent your triples are if you only get 5s in skating skills - focus less time on training difficult jumps and more time on actual skating.

 

[Sam L]

Banning quads for juniors seems silly - they'll still train them anyway.

Honestly, if PCS wasn't so closely correlated to TES, none of this would be a problem. People would be working their butts off to develop skating skills worth 7+ points instead of getting multiple types of quads and then getting those 7+ points in skating skills thrown in just because. It doesn't matter how consistent your triples are if you only get 5s in skating skills - focus less time on training difficult jumps and more time on actual skating.

I think we have our solution here. The sport risks becoming gymnastics on ice because much of it is about what happens in the air rather than the connection with the ice. If you don't have strong edges why should you be getting good scores in skating skills?

 

[Sam L]

Figures is like the barre in ballet. It's necessary but no one wants to watch it.

 

[karne]

Honestly, if PCS wasn't so closely correlated to TES, none of this would be a problem..

Agreed, there needs to be a separation in TES/PCS. It'd be nice, though, if the judges - both national and international - could at least be consistent whether they're going to marry the two together or not. Like, one year, robbing the tech guy to give a title to an arteeste, and the next, giving a tech guy with no program 91 PCS.