Great rivalries in last 25 years

[Skater Boy]

The Usova & Zhulin vs Gritschuk & Platov rivalry had everything. And I mean everything. :yes:

Too bad, I think Usoa and Zhulin were truly the better team artistically by far and technically. Had it not been for the break down of the relationship between Usova and Zhulin and their inabiltiy to do what they did best - classical romanticism they would have had OGM no doubt. But doing that rag doll puppet routine was suicide but the passion was loss I wonder what kind of soup was involved between Oksana who became Pasha because she didn't want to be confused with the bad Oksana - the drunk - the orphan waif. Oh my, such drama!

 

[Jammers]

Oh, for the days when our "aging and battered" and "hot boo boo messes" of skaters regularly won Olympic and World medals for the USA.

 

[zschultz1986]

You don't understand the definition of a rivalry, do you? You clearly have no competitive experience whatsoever, with anything in life, to say such things about people who are at the top of their discipline. Your facts aren't even correct. Cohen DID beat Kwan, 3 times during the 2004 and 2005 seasons (plus the SP at 2004 Nationals). The Stojko vs Eldredge thing is even more ridiculous, given how clear it was that Eldredge would almost always be placed ahead IF he skated his best. And how can Eldredge be a rival to Kulik, and Kulik be a rival to Stojko, if Eldredge also isn't a rival to Stojko? LOGIC?!?!?! This is like the simplest of SAT questions and you just failed it.

Yeah, I'm gonna echo these sentiments. Pangtongfan: You may dominate your "rival" or you may be dominated by your "rival", or you may trade wins, but that DOESN'T DIMINISH THE RIVALRY or mean there is none.

Kwan's may have dominated Sasha overall, but they were most DEFINITELY rivals. The fact that if you were a fan of one, you probably WEREN'T a fan of the other, makes that a rivalry for fans. The fact that they went head to head many times makes that a rivalry.

I'm going to equate this to college sports. As someone who is a former Purdue Boilermaker, our main Rival was IU. Even though we nearly ALWAYS win football, they're still our chief rival. (Another: My favorite baseball team: the Chicago Cubs, have had a century of futility, and our main rival, the St. Louis Cardinals, have the second-most WS wins, all time. The head to head is fairly even: The Cubs actually are ahead. However, the Cardinals have had more success overall.)

A rivalry has less to do with the competitive outcomes, a more to do with the two people/teams/etc.

 

[FSGMT]

Thank you for this great discussion that brings back a lot of wonderful memories!

 

[Olympia]

I was trying to think of a way to articulate my feeling about what constitutes a rivalry, and you did it the best way possible, by giving examples. That was the one aspect of PTF's original post that I couldn't sign on with: the idea that some supposed rivalries weren't really rivalries because one person (or couple) of the rivals generally won. Thanks for making that point, Zschultz1986. Kwan vs. Cohen, for example, always felt like a rivalry to me, because although Kwan almost always won, there was the possibility that Cohen could win on any given day. She was a threat to Kwan, though Michelle usually overcame the threat (or Sasha made enough mistakes to fall back.) Now, Kwan vs., say, Amber Corwin would not have been a rivalry in the same vein. Perhaps co-contenders is another way to state the relationship? In any case, the original post sets up a fascinating issue to consider, whether one agrees with every set of rivals listed or not.

 

[Mrs. P]

For the record, the definition of "rival," per the dictionary:

a : one of two or more striving to reach or obtain something that only one can possess
b : one striving for competitive advantage

So no, competitive results or how often, one obtained that win/prize does not factor into whether two skaters/pairs were rival.

So while Grischuk/Platov always beat Krylova/Ovsyannikov, doesn't mean they're not rivals. Toward the later end of the 1998 Olympic cycle, K/O was not happy with second, they wanted gold.
Same with the Sasha/Michelle example.

 

[Mathman]

...1-2 points behind **** going into the LP...

I guess you mean "Slute."

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

SAT stopped including logic in their questions since the 90s.

Cohen is a hot boo boo mess her entire life. One or two times that due to pure luck, she landed all her jumps, she was competitive with an aging and battered Kwan, but that's not what a rivalry is about.

As for 2006, I can't believe she actually went into the Games as a co-favorite for the gold

jumps are significantly weaker than the other two girls
spins are weaker than the other girls
steps are weaker
spirals are about the same or weaker
skating skills are weaker

Basically a tier below any of the top skaters. If judged by today standard, she would be 3-4 points behind Arakawa and 1-2 points behind **** going into the LP and about 15 points lower in the LP.

I refuse to believe this chick is a rival to anyone but Kimmie Meisnner.

To say that Cohen has the same or weaker spins or spirals is absolutely ridiculous. Sasha's spiral sequence is considered one of the best of all time. Her skating skills and steps are weaker, but her presentation is excellent. I personally found her more engaging than Arakawa, who was still elegant to watch, just not emotionally captivating. I certainly think she was a rival for Kwan, even if she didn't capitalize a whole lot. I think rivals are skaters seen as having similar ability and potential to win over each other over an extended period of time... and Cohen vs. Kwan would certainly count. Victories really has nothing to do with rivalry. Laetitia Hubert beat Lipinski, and Sandhu/Joubert beat Plushenko but they would hardly be considered rival duos.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

To say that Cohen has the same or weaker spins or spirals is absolutely ridiculous. Sasha's spiral sequence is considered one of the best of all time.

The biased American commentators are responsible for this. Sasha had the best extension but from the ankle-down her spirals were not very good. As a "skating" move Irina and Michelle had far better spirals than Sasha.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The biased American commentators are responsible for this. Sasha had the best extension but from the ankle-down her spirals were not very good. As a "skating" move Irina and Michelle had far better spirals than Sasha.

I think having the best extension is notable and she still had excellent speed and that move where she did a 3-turn in split position showed excellent control. And she "presents" her spirals to go with the music instead of just "does" them. I agree that the running edge wasn't particularly deep but in no way can her spirals be regarded as "weaker". They are on par with other skaters, at worst. Look at the judges' scores for her spiral sequence. They can't all be wrong in giving her +2/+3. And the audience, no matter where she is, isn't giving a damn about how deep her blade is when she can achieve such a magnificent split. I've never been a huge fan of her skating ability, but her spirals and spins (particularly the arch in her layback, and her camel) are things I'll always laud her for.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think having the best extension is notable and she still had excellent speed and that move where she did a 3-turn in split position showed excellent control. And she "presents" her spirals to go with the music instead of just "does" them. I agree that the running edge wasn't particularly deep but in no way can her spirals be regarded as "weaker". They are on par with other skaters, at worst. Look at the judges' scores for her spiral sequence. They can't all be wrong in giving her +2/+3. And the audience, no matter where she is, isn't giving a damn about how deep her blade is when she can achieve such a magnificent split. I've never been a huge fan of her skating ability, but her spirals and spins (particularly the arch in her layback, and her camel) are things I'll always laud her for.

I don't disagree that she didn't get high scores, but for me personally I think +2 would be fair because her spiral was an impressive move but it could have been better. Scores are as much about lobbying as they are about what is done on the ice so a "+3" doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't have been better.

 

[karne]

Speaking as someone without an emotional investment American ladies' skating of that era:

I honestly don't get what the fuss was about Cohen's spirals. For me, all I see is the person to blame for the present attitude amongst fans and others in the sport that if a lady's not doing the splits in her spiral, her spirals aren't good enough. I still think a nice, controlled, extended arabesque just above hip height is better looking than a split.

 

[FlattFan]

To say that Cohen has the same or weaker spins or spirals is absolutely ridiculous. Sasha's spiral sequence is considered one of the best of all time.

Her flexibility is amazing. But her spiral is weaker than most top girls. Just look at her Olympics spirals, it was slow and the edge was very shallow. It took her like 10 cross overs for half the rink spiral. Compare that to Shiz's spiral. Now that's one of the best. With 2 cross over, she was going from one end to another, with amazing flexibility to boot.
Most commentators used "that program gave me chill" "exciting, exhilarating" "fresh" "new" "amazing control" "elegant" "the performance of the night" "speed, ice coverage" to describe Shiz even before Irina skated. No way that was any less captivating than hot boo boo mess. People don't give Shiz enough credit. This girl is bad ***, don't let the demure demeanor fools you.

Her skating skills and steps are weaker, but her presentation is excellent. I personally found her more engaging than Arakawa, who was still elegant to watch, just not emotionally captivating.

Arakawa was majorly underscored everytime she went up against Cohen, in the SP, her SS was only .07 higher than Cohen where it should have been at least 1 point ahead. Arakawa was a nobody back then so her amazing SS only beat them by 0.07 and 0.02, which is just wrong wrong wrong.

Again, Sasha's true rival is Kimmie. No way she's in the same league as Michelle or any of the top girls.

 

[Maxi]

Just for fun here's some NBC fromage about the rivalry "Coaching them was like having two wives." - Mishin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB2z...g Yagudin did in the opening of the SP :bow:

 

[ffionhanathomas]

Brian B vs Brian O!

 

[Dragonlady]

I think having the best extension is notable and she still had excellent speed and that move where she did a 3-turn in split position showed excellent control. And she "presents" her spirals to go with the music instead of just "does" them. I agree that the running edge wasn't particularly deep but in no way can her spirals be regarded as "weaker". They are on par with other skaters, at worst.

I consider Cohen's spiral both over-hyped and overscored. A spiral is defined as "an edge in arabesque position". Cohen spiral was not on a deep edge, and her position was not an arabeque. Early in her career, Cohen's spiral travelled in a straight line - a clear indication that she was on the flat of her blade, not an edge. Eventually she did the move on an edge, but not a deep edge, and her ice coverage was half of what Irina, Michelle, or even Sarah Hughes achieved.

Everyone went gaga over her split position and few noticed the shallow edge, the lack of ice-coverage, or how slow she was.

The best spiral is still Kwan's change of edge spiral which started in corner of the rink, crossed the rink on one edge and went back to the other side of the rink on the other, all without her doing anything to build or recover speed in the middle.

 

[blue_idealist]

I think Yuna-Mao rivalry ended in 2009. After that the supposed rivalry has always been more about media hype than what had actually happened on ice.

They were still pretty good rivals at the 2010 Olympics.

 

[quikrush]

Yagudin vs Plushenko : I absolutely loved this rivalry. I was especially tickled when they did not bother to show their animosity for each other

 

[iluvtodd]

Brian B vs Brian O!

Absolutely - The only reason I didn't bring this one up is because my understanding of this topic was that this was about rivalries since 1988.

 

[Olympia]

Her flexibility is amazing. But her spiral is weaker than most top girls. Just look at her Olympics spirals, it was slow and the edge was very shallow. It took her like 10 cross overs for half the rink spiral. Compare that to Shiz's spiral. Now that's one of the best. With 2 cross over, she was going from one end to another, with amazing flexibility to boot.
Most commentators used "that program gave me chill" "exciting, exhilarating" "fresh" "new" "amazing control" "elegant" "the performance of the night" "speed, ice coverage" to describe Shiz even before Irina skated. No way that was any less captivating than hot boo boo mess. People don't give Shiz enough credit. This girl is bad ***, don't let the demure demeanor fools you.

I loved watching Sasha, but when Shizuka won the Olympics, there was something deeply satisfying about the moment. I agree that Arakawa's skating skills in all aspects, including her beautiful, powerful jumps and of course that Ina Bauer, are fabulous. Though she didn't do a triple-triple in the competition at Torino, she had an arsenal of them, all different kinds, unlike many of her rivals of the time.

And I agree with Dragonlady that Kwan's spiral was probably the best, though I did love Sasha's 180-degree split. Kwan is another like Shizuka with magical skating skills, though her jumps lacked the strength of Shizuka's, of course, and she did not have the same back flexibility. (Well, who did?)