PAW: Close/Controversial results

[rain]

Pick a winner.
1988 Olympics
Boitano vs. Orser
Witt vs. Manley

1994 Olympics
Gordeeva/Grinkov vs. Mishkutenok/Dmitriev
Urmanov vs. Stojko
Grishuk/Platov vs. Usova/Zhulin vs. Torvill/Dean
Baiul vs. Kerrigan - no opinion

1994 Worlds
Sato vs. Bonaly

1995 Worlds
Bobek vs. Kwan

1996 Worlds
Kwan vs. Chen Lu

1996/1997 Champions Series Final (now the Grand Prix)
Bourne/Kraatz vs. Krylova/Ovsyannikov

1998 Olympics
Lipinski vs. Kwan

2001 Worlds
Sale/Pelletier vs. Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze - no strong feelings

2002 Olympics
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze vs. Sale/Pelletier
Drobiazko/Vanagas vs. Bourne/Kraatz vs. Fusar-poli/Margaglio (don't recall an uproar over this, but I read that Drobiazko/Vanagas filed a complaint because the 2 teams ahead of them fell) - don't remember this one

2010 Olympics
Lysacek vs. Plushenko vs. Takahashi

2012 Worlds
Chan vs. Takahashi

2014 Olympics
Sotnikova vs. Kim vs. Kostner

2014 Worlds
Hanyu vs. Machida - don't really remember this
Pechalat/Bourzat vs Weaver/Poje vs Cappellini/Lanotte

2018 Olympics
Zagitova vs. Medvedev - neither, Osmond should have won, but between the two of them I'd place Medvedeva higher

 

[anonymoose_au]

Pick a winner.

OK I'm game if only for the ones I know

2002 Olympics
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze vs. Sale/Pelletier (They were totally screwed over by the scandal! The French judge cheated it seems (?) but she didn't need to, I think Elena/Anton were clear winners!)

2010 Olympics
Lysacek vs. Plushenko vs. Takahashi (I think the FS scores for Evan and Plushy were right, but Plushy was underscored for his SP and should have had enough of a lead going in to win)

2012 Worlds
Chan vs. Takahashi (I have to admit, I don't remember watching this...but I'm pretty sure PChan fell like three times and come on, that's not cool judges - it's not like he had the TES to overwhelm Dai)

2018 Olympics
Zagitova vs. Medvedeva (I don't know actually...at the time I felt Med should have won...but after seeing how badly the FS went for Alina in Worlds I appreciate how difficult it was...still wish there was one jump at the start of the program though )

 

[4everchan]

you should rewatch 2012.... Patrick fell once... on a double axel.. that's it... and he did have stable quads which Dai didn't bring at that event.

 

[anonymoose_au]

you should rewatch 2012.... Patrick fell once... on a double axel.. that's it... and he did have stable quads which Dai didn't bring at that event.

Really?! How embarrassing...I must have confused it with some other performance, I definitely remember a three fall program from Patrick once (poor guy!). Of course, I always have way more trouble with falls then pops or whatever. I'm stuck in 6.0 when a fall was the KISS OF DEATH!!!

 

[synesthesia]

4everchan, I like you and don't intend to quarrel (and initially wasn't going to post in this thread, because like you, I despise debates like these), but...

and he did have stable quads which Dai didn't bring at that event.

This is incorrect. He did two of them efficiently, one in his SP, one in the FS plus two 3As (Patrick 'only' did one, but had one more quad). His only mistake over the two segments of the competition was his poor choice to tack the 3T onto his quad (instead of onto the 3Lz) in the SP, which he underrotated and severely stepped out on. His solo 3F in the FS was deemed < even though it was rotated and he got stingy GOEs on several jump elements (3S, 3Lo, 3F). I won't even get into his PCS, because those made me cry bitterly. I think you can argue for either of them winning (and this indeed has been discussed ad nauseam), but the margin should have been much closer either way. And now I'll tiptoe out of here again...

 

[4everchan]

4everchan, I like you and don't intend to quarrel (and initially wasn't going to post in this thread, because like you, I despise debates like these), but...


This is incorrect. He did two of them efficiently, one in his SP, one in the FS plus two 3As (Patrick 'only' did one, but had one more quad). His only mistake over the two segments of the competition was his poor choice to tack the 3T onto his quad (instead of onto the 3Lz) in the SP, which he underrotated and severely stepped out on. His solo 3F in the FS was deemed < even though it was rotated and he got stingy GOEs on several jump elements (3S, 3Lo, 3F). I won't even get into his PCS, because those made me cry bitterly. I think you can argue for either of them winning (and this indeed has been discussed ad nauseam), but the margin should have been much closer either way. And now I'll tiptoe out of here again...

hehe we won't fight over this... and you know I love Dai.. so it's not about that

what i meant was that the combo wasn't good in the SP.. the quad itself was fine but the 3t << with minus 3 GOE which defeats the purpose of the quad altogether as so many points were lost on that combo

and also what i meant is back then, Patrick usually had 2 quads in the LP where Dai usually had 1. again... we could argue here because patrick's steady quads got him +goe and Dai's didn't... was he underscored? i wasn't there so i let the judges have the final say...

so that's what i meant here... i was answering to the previous poster who had imagined seeing patrick fall 3 times... well he didn't...

PS I was answering with stable quads (plural) the previous poster who mentioned that it is not like Patrick had overwhelming TES compared to Dai.. and my point was mostly to argue that back then, Patrick was the guy who was doing two quads in LP other contenders often brought just the one...

 

[synesthesia]

hehe we won't fight over this... and you know I love Dai.. so it's not about that

I know it's not about that and want to emphasize that I've come to appreciate Patrick's skating very much over the years too. ('A journey' is easily one of my favourite men's programs of the past quad.)

what i meant was that the combo wasn't good in the SP.. the quad itself was fine but the 3t << with minus 3 GOE which defeats the purpose of the quad altogether as so many points were lost on that combo

Don't rub it in. I'm still mad at him for that. :hopelessness:

and also what i meant is back then, Patrick usually had 2 quads in the LP where Dai usually had 1. again... we could argue here because patrick's steady quads got him +goe and Dai's didn't...

PS I was answering with stable quads (plural) the previous poster who mentioned that it is not like Patrick had overwhelming TES compared to Dai.. and my point was mostly to argue that back then, Patrick was the guy who was doing two quads in LP other contenders often brought just the one...

The bolded bits are of course correct (edit: at this particular competition Patrick's SP quad wasn't steadily landed and also received -GOE, Dai's in the LP got slight +GOE), but in the end it's about the sum of all parts over both segments and in the FS Dai had two 3As (while Patrick had 1) to nearly balance out the 1 vs. 2 quad layout, 3 combos vs Patrick's 2, a higher scoring 3-jump-combo and an overall higher BV by 5.8 points (7.56 if the 3F had not received the undeserved < call). They were 3.69 points apart after the SP... I'm not the type to say my favourite should win everything (and am scratching my head at the argument for Dai winning in Vancouver), but at this competition I honestly have him at least tied with Patrick. Wish they could have shared the gold somehow.

The 3 falls argument is obviously bogus...

 

[EricRohmer]

2009 Worlds
Lysacek vs Chan

 

[Old Cat Lady]

2009 Worlds
Lysacek vs Chan

awww man. I finally felt like I watched enough to reply to my thread. Now I have to watch another Lysacek program... I hate you

 

[CellarDweller]

1988 Olympics
Boitano vs. Orser
Witt vs. Manley

1994 Olympics
Gordeeva/Grinkov vs. Mishkutenok/Dmitriev
Urmanov vs. Stojko
Baiul vs. Kerrigan (Nancy's SP was great, while Oksana had an error she didn't appear to get deductions on. Oksana's LP was great, but Nancy's was technically better, but Oksana got higher technical marks. Had one of her tech marks been 0.1 less, there would've been no "tie" and Nancy would've won the gold)

1994 Worlds
Sato vs. Bonaly

1995 Worlds
Bobek vs. Kwan

1996 Worlds
Kwan vs. Chen Lu

1996/1997 Champions Series Final (now the Grand Prix)
Bourne/Kraatz vs. Krylova/Ovsyannikov

1998 Olympics
Lipinski vs. Kwan

2001 Worlds
Sale/Pelletier vs. Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze

2002 Olympics
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze vs. Sale/Pelletier


2014 Olympics
Sotnikova vs. Kim vs. Kostner


2018 Olympics
Zagitova vs. Medvedeva


2018 US Men's Olympic Team - pick 2. I assume no one's arguing with choosing Chen
Zhou vs. Miner vs. Rippon

 

[lovaticcanada]

1988 Olympics
Boitano vs. Orser
Witt vs. Manley

1994 Olympics
Gordeeva/Grinkov vs. Mishkutenok/Dmitriev
Urmanov vs. Stojko
Grishuk/Platov vs. Usova/Zhulin vs. Torvill/Dean
Baiul vs. Kerrigan

1994 Worlds
Sato vs. Bonaly

1995 Worlds
Bobek vs. Kwan

1996 Worlds
Kwan vs. Chen Lu

1996/1997 Champions Series Final (now the Grand Prix)
Bourne/Kraatz vs. Krylova/Ovsyannikov

1998 Olympics
Lipinski vs. Kwan

2001 Worlds
Sale/Pelletier vs. Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze

2002 Olympics
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze vs. Sale/Pelletier
Drobiazko/Vanagas vs. Bourne/Kraatz vs. Fusar-poli/Margaglio (don't recall an uproar over this, but I read that Drobiazko/Vanagas filed a complaint because the 2 teams ahead of them fell)

2009 Worlds
Lysacek vs. Chan

2010 Olympics
Lysacek vs. Plushenko vs. Takahashi

2012 Worlds
Chan vs. Takahashi

2013 Worlds
Chan vs. Ten

2014 Olympics
Sotnikova vs. Kim vs. Kostner

2014 Worlds
Hanyu vs. Machida
Pechalat/Bourzat vs Weaver/Poje vs Cappellini/Lanotte

2018 Olympics
Zagitova vs. Medvedeva


2018 US Men's Olympic Team - pick 2. I assume no one's arguing with choosing Chen
Zhou vs. Miner vs. Rippon

 

[treeloving]

Choosing Salé/Pelletier over Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze is a CRIMEEEEEEEEE. :furious:

 

[4everchan]

Choosing Salé/Pelletier over Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze is a CRIMEEEEEEEEE. :furious:

see, i think there is a difference between better skaters versus better performance... to me, B/S are by far a better couple... but at SLC, S/P had a better skate.. happens

 

[Ares]

Choosing Salé/Pelletier over Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze is a CRIMEEEEEEEEE. :furious:

Well with the country flag and his / her nick lovaticcanada it can't be that surprising

 

[yoloaxel]

I only remember a few of these :hopelessness:

2014 Olympics
Sotnikova vs. Kim vs. Kostner [but I don't think it was as big a scandal as it was made up to be. She should have won though]

2014 Worlds
Hanyu vs. Machida
Pechalat/Bourzat vs Weaver/Poje vs Cappellini/Lanotte

2018 Olympics
Zagitova vs. Medvedeva [I don't think Zagi winning is wrong per se, but I disagree with the rise of her PCS. It would have been super close either way and she was still a deserving OGM]


2018 US Men's Olympic Team - pick 2. I assume no one's arguing with choosing Chen
Zhou vs. Miner vs. Rippon [I don't like either Zhou or Miner, I'd probably have sent Jason Brown tbh]

 

[mikeko666]

2010 Olympics
Lysacek vs. Plushenko vs. Takahashi

2012 Worlds
Chan vs. Takahashi

2013 Worlds
Chan vs. Ten

2014 Olympics
Sotnikova vs. Kim

2014 Worlds
Hanyu vs. Machida
Pechalat/Bourzat vs Weaver/Poje vs Cappellini/Lanotte

2018 Olympics
Zagitova vs. Medvedeva

 

[rlopen]

Pick a winner. If anyone wants to add any I'll edit this post

1994 Olympics
Urmanov vs. Stojko - Urmanov messed up one of his spins and had one of the most boring free skates. Stojko deserved that gold.
Baiul vs. Kerrigan

1995 Worlds
Bobek vs. Kwan

1996 Worlds
Kwan vs. Chen Lu

1998 Olympics
Lipinski vs. Kwan - Lipinski was better than people give her credit for, but Michelle was still better than Tara.

2002 Olympics
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze vs. Sale/Pelletier

2010 Olympics
Lysacek vs. Plushenko vs. Takahashi

2014 Olympics
Sotnikova vs. Kim vs. Kostner - Adios Nonino has to be one of the most perfectly musical skates I have seen. It is Kim's best skate and the fact that it somehow lost to Sotnikova is just a sham.

2018 Olympics
Zagitova vs. Medvedeva - Med's flutz literally never gets called, but Alina gets overscored in the PCS department (but so does Med, just a tad, IMO, like it should be maybe a point lower or so) so I would have ended up going with Alina.

2018 US Men's Olympic Team - pick 2.
Zhou vs. Miner vs. Rippon - The whole point of Nagasu being bumped over Wagner was because Nagasu placed 3rd and Edmunds placed 2nd, and thus Edmunds couldn't be touched. However, this just violated that whole choice...TBH Idc how Miner would have done at the Olympics (and I know Zhou ended up doing well at the Olympics) because the Olympics doesn't matter that much in terms of what the Fed needs (Worlds does, however.) Miner should have been sent to Olympics and Zhou to Worlds.

 

[Old Cat Lady]

1988 Olympics
Boitano vs. Orser - Boitano had stronger jumps, speed, and possibly the most magnificent outside spread eagle ever. would give Boitano 5.9/5.8 and Orser 5.8/5.9. Technical score was tie breaker back then.
Witt vs. Manley. Honestly, not sure. I find Manley's presentation to be downright goofy but wish Witt had more skating content.

1994 Olympics
Gordeeva/Grinkov vs. Mishkutenok/Dmitriev - For years, I thought M&D should have won. But as I learned more about the sport, I appreciated G&G’s strengths
Urmanov vs. Stojko - Urmanov's speed, carriage, and line was so far superior
Grishuk/Platov vs. Usova/Zhulin vs. Torvill/Dean - Hated their program. Thought they were worst of the 3. But G&P should have gotten 3 deductions and T&D deserved their deductions.
Baiul vs. Kerrigan - Forgot how bad Kerrigan’s programs were. Baiul had much better power and loads more musicality.

1994 Worlds
Sato vs. Bonaly

1995 Worlds
Bobek vs. Kwan

1996 Worlds
Kwan vs. Chen Lu

1996/1997 Champions Series Final (now the Grand Prix)
Bourne/Kraatz vs. Krylova/Ovsyannikov

1998 Olympics
Lipinski vs. Kwan - Kwan skated tentatively while Lipinski was aggressive and had higher tech

2001 Worlds
Sale/Pelletier vs. Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze

2002 Olympics
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze vs. Sale/Pelletier- Stronger edges, fuller choreography, better carriage and lines, better unison. S&P had an illegal lift and a lot of posing and emptiness. B&S’s twist was uglier but both had poor twists. B&S - 5.7/5.9 S&P -5.8/5.8

2009 Worlds
Lysacek vs. Chan - Chan’s components seemed underscored. Don’t see how they’re worse than Lysacek’s.

2010 Olympics
Lysacek vs. Plushenko vs. Takahashi - This has been the hardest one to decide - every time I look at it I pick a different winner. All 3 were underwhelming in their own way - Lysacek is mediocre all around, Plushenko skated an empty program with sloppy jumps, and Takahashi is the only one of the 3 to not skate clean. But Takahashi was extremely underscored in his components, his flip only looked 1/8th underrotated, and it looks to me that his lutz rocks from a deep outside edge to a shallow outside edge so didn’t deserve those tech calls - Not sure if that makes up the 10 point deficit. Right now I'm jumping on the Takahashi bandwagon but might change my mind

2012 Worlds
Chan vs. Takahashi - Chan had 2 mistakes in his SP step sequence and still received positive GOE and he didn’t get a deduction from having no steps into the solo jump (due to stepping out of the first jump on the intended combo so had to make it the solo jump). Judges also did their usual thing of scoring all the components about the same. Takahashi deserved higher scores in 3 categories for both programs, which in itself would have made up the 6 point difference.

2013 Worlds
Chan vs. Ten - This was pretty much even for me. Gave Ten the edge because I thought his components scores were a smidge low in the SP and I didn’t think either of them should have gotten +3 GOE on their quads, which Chan benefited more from. however I thought the original result was also fair and I’m not sure if the GOE requirements have changed since then.

2014 Olympics
Sotnikova vs. Kim vs. Kostner - Kim was the better all around skater. I can see the argument for Sotnikova though. Her program was juniorish in its presentation but she skated much more aggressively, her jumps had a lot of power, and Eteri knows how to work the IJS system.

2014 Worlds
Hanyu vs. Machida

2018 Olympics
Zagitova vs. Medvedeva - At first I thought Medvedeva should have won but I think what Zagitova gained in overscored PCS, she lost in Medvedeva’s uncalled flutz.


2018 US Men's Olympic Team - pick 2. I assume no one's arguing with choosing Chen
Zhou vs. Miner vs. Rippon - Don't know what the USFSA requirements are for team selection but the only reason I see to select non-medalists is to ensure the most medals/world spots. Since none of them had a realistic chance of medaling and Olympics don't factor into next year's world team, it should have just been the top 3.

 

[Ladskater]

I call this Skating History and or Water Under the Bridge (dare I say "ice under the bridge"). The skaters have moved on, so should we.

 

[perspicuosity]

see, i think there is a difference between better skaters versus better performance... to me, B/S are by far a better couple... but at SLC, S/P had a better skate.. happens

This x100.