Olympic figure skater, coaches being investigated for allegations

[el henry]

It's late at night, so I may be misunderstanding you or completely missing something in the article. But if I understood correctly, the anonymous skater who made that disturbing comment about Ashley's assault made it directly to USA TODAY. It isn't clear to me whether he made it to Brennan or to another USA TODAY journalist or employee, but it isn't attributed to Ashley. Like karne, I hope I'm not cheering him on at Nationals next week...at least I'm totally confident that cheering for our beloved Jason is safe!

Looks like my reading comprehension is on the same level as my proofreading

No one wants to root for "at least you weren't raped" guy, but if that comment was made to Christine, that makes it even worse for me:shocked: (and I take it back, Ashley) What is Christine doing promising anonymity to such a person? Jumping off, I'm still not buying her self-made myth that she's crusading for justice, as much as I want to see facts established and justice done. Where is her in-depth investigation into this Gordie, who, if those statements are true, is way worse than Mark Ladwig and his speech? When she does that, then I'll be impressed.:agree:

And of course we agree on Jason

 

[lizardlass]

I think what Christine is doing is incredibly important. She is reporting on whether or not US Figure skating is taking these matters seriously. She continues to reveal the toxic culture of the figure skating world, and is exposing why these abusers continue to harm children unchecked. She is keeping this conversation going, and keeping these issues in the public eye, even though plenty of people would just like to see it all disappear.

 

[ruffledgrouse]

Gordie Zimmermann

 

[Moxiejan]

Looks like my reading comprehension is on the same level as my proofreading
No one wants to root for "at least you weren't raped" guy, but if that comment was made to Christine, that makes it even worse for me:shocked: (and I take it back, Ashley) What is Christine doing promising anonymity to such a person? Jumping off, I'm still not buying her self-made myth that she's crusading for justice, as much as I want to see facts established and justice done. Where is her in-depth investigation into this Gordie, who, if those statements are true, is way worse than Mark Ladwig and his speech? When she does that, then I'll be impressed.:agree:
And of course we agree on Jason

If Brennan hadn’t promised anonymity, she wouldn’t have been able to use the quote. So, in the interest of investigating the bad attitudes in the skating world, is it better to include the anonymous quote or go without it?

It should be noted that she still would have to have notes and/or a recording so that she could verify that she wasn’t just making it up. Although the person quoted is anonymous to readers, he would not be anonymous to the senior editors who vet/approve her sourcing & use of this type of quote. (i know this because of my 40 years experience as a writer/editor at national newspapers; the process is stringent. This is why it’s important to rely on media sources that employ professional trained journalists & not internet bloggers or whatever.)

 

[DSQ]

I disagree. At this stage I find it harder and harder to believe she knew nothing; and at any rate, her posting on her instagram - because she did, make no mistake - is incredibly tone-deaf. She should be keeping her head down.





Oh, come on, el henry, aren't you supposed to be a legal type? It should be blatantly obvious to you why this has occurred. I can see why this is how it is, and I'm no legal eagle.

Christine Brennan doesn't want the paper to get sued. It's really that simple, and it's something very important, since she's apparently the only figure skating journalist with enough guts and fortitude to continue going after this issue. If it means hearing unpalatable truths then so be it.

I do want to know who the veteran male skater is so I can be sure I do not have any positive thoughts about him next weekend at Nationals. But you know exactly why he wouldn't talk without anonymity - because he knows that he would be called out on that in an instant and his own funding, not to mention any kind of other support, would likely be withdrawn for his awful attitude.

Also, a male skater with that attitude probably has had interactions worth digging deeper into...

We have absolutely no evidence Vanessa knew anything and she is not under investigation.

 

[oatmella]

We have absolutely no evidence Vanessa knew anything and she is not under investigation.

But there’s no way that she is not currently aware of the investigation/allegations. At least outwardly on social media, they are acting like nothing has happened.

 

[karne]

Jumping off, I'm still not buying her self-made myth that she's crusading for justice, as much as I want to see facts established and justice done. Where is her in-depth investigation into this Gordie, who, if those statements are true, is way worse than Mark Ladwig and his speech? When she does that, then I'll be impressed.:agree:

Oh my god, come on, you cannot possibly not understand what's going on here.

For all we know she is doing an investigation into Zimmermann, or the male skater quoted. But she has to be careful. And there's only one of her. This is going to take time, and frankly I'd rather she took her time and had all her ducks in a row before publishing her stories, because it makes them more effective and makes the takedown more brutal.

And if she didn't promise anonymity, she couldn't use the quote, because the skater would never dare say something like that openly for fear of losing support (and being outed as a horrible human being). Like, really, it's not that hard to understand.

We have absolutely no evidence Vanessa knew anything and she is not under investigation.

Oh please. We have an ever-growing number of people who seem to have known about this and you're trying to play the "there's no way she could have known!" line.

Regardless she is behaving in a ridiculously tone-deaf manner. Acting like nothing is wrong and her career isn't even blipped is a primo way to get everyone offside with you.

 

[DSQ]

But there’s no way that she is not currently aware of the investigation/allegations. At least outwardly on social media, they are acting like nothing has happened.

Of course and I don’t personally think it’s best to act the way she’s acting. He should lay low and as a consequence the team should not be competing but I’m not going to let people imply with zero evidence that she knew beforehand or was involved.

 

[Edwin]

Are James and Cipres actually an item, so she could be blinded by love?

 

[Moxiejan]

Are James and Cipres actually an item, so she could be blinded by love?

They were in a relationship several years ago, but she now is involved with someone else.

 

[DenissVFan]

I understand that Vanessa is in an extremely difficult position but what if they are banned from competing? If not, they are unlikely to receive much fan support at competitions. They may be booed. The sympathy she may have gained from fans had she cut ties with Cipres could have been more beneficial to her in the long term even if she had to find a new partner at such a short notice or even skate solo in shows.

 

[Harriet]

All other questions aside: James/Cipres aren't competing at Europeans, but Hamon/Strekalin are, and Cipres has been coaching them, so he may be present in a behind-the-scenes role if not as an official coach (I hope he's not, but who knows what FFSG will do*?).

Because of that, I went shopping for some teal ribbon - teal is worn to show support for survivors of child sexual abuse - this morning and am currently sitting in my hotel room sewing loops of ribbon to safety pins. I'll be wearing one at Europeans, and if anyone else wants to do so too, please look out for the tall Australian with brown hair and glasses, wearing a burgundy coat and grey scarf. I'll have about eighteen or so to spare.

*This is why I'm not condemning any of the other skaters on the French team for not speaking out, including those coached by Zimmerman/Fontana. As we know from Bruno Massot's story, the FFSG does not play nice and is perfectly capable of threatening them with loss of funding or more if they don't toe the line in public.

 

[el henry]

If Brennan hadn’t promised anonymity, she wouldn’t have been able to use the quote. So, in the interest of investigating the bad attitudes in the skating world, is it better to include the anonymous quote or go without it?

It should be noted that she still would have to have notes and/or a recording so that she could verify that she wasn’t just making it up. Although the person quoted is anonymous to readers, he would not be anonymous to the senior editors who vet/approve her sourcing & use of this type of quote. (i know this because of my 40 years experience as a writer/editor at national newspapers; the process is stringent. This is why it’s important to rely on media sources that employ professional trained journalists & not internet bloggers or whatever.)

And the quote is *that* important how? I’m not being dense, I’m truly wanting to know. This isn’t the Pentagon Papers, you shouldn’t promise anonymity to know that a skater says jerky things. I guess I’m too accustomed to the NFL, where no one, but no one, would promise anonymity to a football player to get this quote. They’d just print it

Jumping off again, (cause that’s how I roll) I don’t see what Mark Ladwig’s alleged speech proves, without follow-up. Isn’t he a coach? Can we see if his skaters feel safe? That would impress me. Does anyone work for him who feels he has done anything untoward? That kind of work, and those kinds of questions, would impress me.
And for the love of Mike, where’s the follow-up on Gordie?

I just can’t change my mind on this one. A poorly drafted article, two thirds of which is complete and total reprint, two unrelated quotes, and the real lede (Gordie) buried. This is important stuff, and I’m not seeing how this article treats it with the importance it deserves.

 

[skylark]

Did anyone who's been commenting about this story listen to Ashley's new interview featured at the top of yesterday's new article? Just wondering.

Ashley is being as scrupulously fair as she is being scrupulously honest (RE: the video). One of the most important things she's said repeatedly is "I've been living with this for 10 years." She's addressing one of the most poisonous aftereffects to a child, which a 17-year-old still is. Ashley was asked once if she'd ever considered switching to pairs. She said, "uh ... I'd never trust a man that much." This isn't very important in the figure skating world aspect of things, but to anyone with a shred of imagination, the abuse she suffered at age 17 certainly could have impacted her life in a myriad of ways. (She was even ashamed to say anything to her parents, because she'd gone to that party without their permission.) Thankfully, now that she's told her truth, is teaching children about the danger and aiding USFS in moving forward, she hopefully won't have that burden of shame and confusion any longer.

from the article:
“I was absolutely paralyzed in fear,” Wagner said ....

After the story was published, Wagner said she “had people saying thank you to me for showing the world that John was a good guy because he stopped when I asked him to. That makes my stomach turn. I had so many people come up to me who just clearly didn’t understand that it’s violating to be asleep and wake up with someone’s fingers all over you. It’s something that I thought would be so clear.”​

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...truggles-sexual-abuse-allegations/4478027002/
​

I thought I’d heard that quote from Ashley before, but I could be confused I do think it’s unfair of Ashley to drop it without a name,

I saw your later-post apology to Ashley, El, but I can't help it. If a life-long legal eagle like you doesn't read carefully ... well, I don't know what to think. The great thing about this forum's conversations is that someone pointed out the mistake and you re-read and apologized.

In another vein, I think about how Ashley is perceived in the figure skating world. Past and present. She can't express an opinion without people writing scathing things about her, and to her. When competing, she couldn't skate a program without people ravaging her both as an athlete and personally.

It makes vividly clear how phenomenally courageous Ashley is, to continue putting herself out there, on behalf of her own mental health and on behalf of protecting children.

 

[TontoK]

We have absolutely no evidence Vanessa knew anything and she is not under investigation.

I wonder what the dynamic is for pairs skaters... any pairs skaters.

Are they attached at the hip, hanging out all the time, very aware and involved in the lives of their partners off the ice?

Or do they view this as a job? I'm coming to the rink, clocking in, getting my practice done, working on our program, addressing weaknesses. Good, now practice is over, see you tomorrow, bye.

If i were a pairs skater, I think I'd be of the second category. I'm not even Facebook friends with the people I work with, and I have no real desire to know about their personal lives, although of course I hope they are happy. So, no, I don't necessarily think Vanessa had to know.

 

[okokok1777]

We have absolutely no evidence Vanessa knew anything and she is not under investigation.

According to people directly involved with the case, people who have had private conversations with her and evidence that I have personally viewed, she knew about the incident in December of 2017.

 

[Tavi...]

It's late at night, so I may be misunderstanding you or completely missing something in the article. But if I understood correctly, the anonymous skater who made that disturbing comment about Ashley's assault made it directly to USA TODAY. It isn't clear to me whether he made it to Brennan or to another USA TODAY journalist or employee, but it isn't attributed to Ashley. Like karne, I hope I'm not cheering him on at Nationals next week...at least I'm totally confident that cheering for our beloved Jason is safe!

I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. The anonymous skater was reacting to Ashley’s story (after USA Today published it) but made the comments to USA Today in an interview.

 

[Moxiejan]

And the quote is *that* important how? I’m not being dense, I’m truly wanting to know. This isn’t the Pentagon Papers, you shouldn’t promise anonymity to know that a skater says jerky things. I guess I’m too accustomed to the NFL, where no one, but no one, would promise anonymity to a football player to get this quote. They’d just print it

In all likelihood (again, speaking from 40+ years as a writer/editor), anonymity was a condition of the entire interview, before it even started. It wouldn’t have been after-the-fact for just this one sentence.

And why is this one sentence so important? Because it expresses a very dangerous attitude that as long as there is not “actual rape,” it’s OK to subject others (of all ages, but especially minors) to nonconsensual sexual contact, whether through physical fondling or emailed genital images.

As for football players: In the vast majority of situations, they are being interviewed on the field, in a locker room or at a press conference. In these settings, they already have waived any sort of anonymity.

 

[rosy14]

As time goes on I am less and less impressed by Christine Brennan. This serious and disturbing issue deserves better.

1. Three quarters of this story is no new reporting and no new news. She repeats whole cloth her previous interview with Ashley and her previous articles on John Coughlin. Sometimes news articles do offer background for folks “new to the story”, but this is literally reprinting previous stories.

2. The only new quotes I saw were those of what Mark Ladwig said reported by four anonymous sources. Who didn’t want to be quoted because of the “sensitivity”? Of what? There is no new news, no naming of the girl, God forbid, just Ladwig’s reaction. If the only way Brennan could obtain these quotes is by promising these people anonymity, I think even less of her reporting skills.

From the screaming headline, I was expecting more actual news:disapp:

Totally agree.
We are less than a week before US Championships starts, and we know nothing about any SafeSport measure against Zimmermann and Fontana, if, of, course, necessary.

 

[rosy14]

You seem quite certain about all this stuff. Apparently, at today, no police officer, no State attorney, no judge or other legal authority in US has charged Morgan on anything.