Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

[readernick]

I don’t have a strong opinion pro or con on this issue. I do think there are serious issues with the way children are treated by the adults around them who are completely results focused. The situation with Katie highlights this problem. However, would raising the age minimum really reduce the pressure on these kids? Would it make the coaches and parents more focused on raising healthy ( physically and mentally) figure skaters rather than just on winning? If it would, I would support this change, but I don’t have confidence that this change would make a meaningful impact.

The issues with more “mature” skating being rewarded would be better addresses through better PCS judging ( perhaps separate panels for tech vs. PCS) or through assigning greater point values to step sequences and choreographic sequences.

 

[TallyT]

...through assigning greater point values to step sequences and choreographic sequences.

This, this, so much this.

 

[Skatesocs]

I don't have further comments from last time, but I'm curious if the "medical reasons" from last time the age limit was raised were made public? I don't remember if it affected men's skating, too.

 

[karne]

I don't have further comments from last time, but I'm curious if the "medical reasons" from last time the age limit was raised were made public? I don't remember if it affected men's skating, too.

Do you mean in the 90s, when it was raised to 15? Because that affected men's skating. IIRC Plushenko had to be grandfathered into the Worlds team for 1998 because of it.

I don't know if medical reasons were ever published.

 

[Skatesocs]

Do you mean in the 90s, when it was raised to 15? Because that affected men's skating. IIRC Plushenko had to be grandfathered into the Worlds team for 1998 because of it.

I don't know if medical reasons were ever published.

Thanks for the information about the first time, I didn't know that. I was asking about Turin - when Asada and Kim were pushed out. Or was it the same? Could be that I'm forgetting my skating history.

ETA: Nvm, we're talking about the same thing - the controversy was that Asada and Kim could of course not be "grandfathered" in to a rule that had been there for a long time by then - and people thought they were the best and it would suck if they didn't go.

 

[zounger]

There is no need for change in the minimum age. If a 14 can win over a 20 then sorry but the sport from athletic perspective is a joke.

 

[Arbitrary]

There is no need for change in the minimum age. If a 14 can win over a 20 then sorry but the sport from athletic perspective is a joke.

From athletic yes. But not necessarily from financial too.
It depends on which age some specific sportsmen reach the peak.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

 

[kallirroe]

There is no need for change in the minimum age. If a 14 can win over a 20 then sorry but the sport from athletic perspective is a joke.

It is not a joke, it is pure anatomy of a body. Figure skating ( like gymnastics ) is a very tough sport. I cannot blame Medvedeva for not being able, until now at least, to have a 4S or 3A. Her back is seariously injured as she has said herself and her first priority is her health and a body in the age of 20 is 10 times more difficult to learn ultraC elements (Tuk has learned her 3A back in her 12s ). Rumours has it that Kostornaya also has back issues. This is a proof that figure skating puts an immense pressure in the bones and , year by year, sth like that can get worse ( especially if there is no rest or proper care because you have only maybe two r max three seasons, in Russian field, to gain all your medals and the you are vanished ). Puberty is another serious issue in Figure Skating, especially in the ladies. Puberty has some certain physiological and anatomical changes, changes that can be career changing or ending careers. A pre-puberty body like Valieva can do better than girls post-puberty. And it has to do with body type as well (e.g. japanese women dont have so many severe changes in puberty ).

 

[zounger]

It is not a joke, it is pure anatomy of a body. Figure skating ( like gymnastics ) is a very tough sport. I cannot blame Medvedeva for not being able, until now at least, to have a 4S or 3A. Her back is seariously injured as she has said herself and her first priority is her health and a body in the age of 20 is 10 times more difficult to learn ultraC elements (Tuk has learned her 3A back in her 12s ). Rumours has it that Kostornaya also has back issues. This is a proof that figure skating puts an immense pressure in the bones and , year by year, sth like that can get worse ( especially if there is no rest or proper care because you have only maybe two r max three seasons, in Russian field, to gain all your medals and the you are vanished ). Puberty is another serious issue in Figure Skating, especially in the ladies. Puberty has some certain physiological and anatomical changes, changes that can be career changing or ending careers. A pre-puberty body like Valieva can do better than girls post-puberty. And it has to do with body type as well (e.g. japanese women dont have so many severe changes in puberty ).

Then let’s make a sport to pass through 5cm hole. And when a 1 year old wins we will say it’s matter of anatomy.

 

[Mathman]

ETA: Nvm, we're talking about the same thing - the controversy was that Asada and Kim could of course not be "grandfathered" in to a rule that had been there for a long time by then - and people thought they were the best and it would suck if they didn't go.

At that time the 15-year-old rule only applied to the major ISU championships, but 14-year olds could skate as seniors in lesser events such as the Grand Prix.

The controversy about Mao Asada was that her birthday is in September, so she missed the cutoff for the Olympics, but was allowed to compete on the senior Grand Prix. (She was 15 by the calendar during that fall season).

Yuna Kim was in exactly the same situation (her birthday is also in September), but since she was not eligible for the Olympics or senior World Championship she elected to stay junior (and in fact won the junior Grand Prix Final and the JuniorWorld Championship).

Mao's situation was especially poignant because on the senior Grand Prix circuit she beat the entire soon-to-be Olympic podium -- Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya -- but had to sit home watching on TV while those skaters romped at the Olympics. This left fans rightfully wondering who was really the highest, fastest and strongest at this Olympic sport.

 

[Happy Skates]

The article states that Katia was first approached about transferring to Australia when she was still only 15. The decision-making process began much earlier than the competing did for her, and at a time when it seems she was in deep distress following her fathers death - in need of support, not a life-changing decision to make that, once made, left a 16-year-old kid on the far side of the world from her remaining family and heavily dependent on people whose language she didn't even speak at the time.

I mean, come on. Think about the 16-year-olds you know. Is that something you'd want them to have to go through? Is it something you'd expect them to be able to cope with without a great deal of struggle and distress? I'd rather not see another kid in that situation because sport - any sport - ever again, even if the outcome is eventually less bleak for some than it was for Katia.

These are people. Not just competitors. How about we put their humanity and overall wellbeing before sporting conveniece for a change?

You make valid points, but none of these problems that Katia had would be solved by changing the age limit, as she literally didn't compete senior until 17, the proposed new age limit. There are issues with the sport and how athletes get treated, and they need to be addressed, but this proposed rule change would not have affected Katia's situation in any way.

In my opinion, the ISU using Katia's death to push this agenda is disgusting. If people want to use relevant arguments for why they think the age limit should be changed, thats fine. But in Katia's situation, the age-limit clearly had nothing to do with it, and acting like the age-limit would have solved her problems distracts from the real issues with the sport that contributed to her mistreatment.

 

[Mathman]

There is no need for change in the minimum age. If a 14 can win over a 20 then sorry but the sport from athletic perspective is a joke.

Then let’s make a sport to pass through 5cm hole. And when a 1 year old wins we will say it’s matter of anatomy.

I think that is the whole impetus behind the idea to have separate "technical" and "artistic" segments.

Going through a 5cm hole is, indeed, a joke. Is doing a quadruple jump with a tiny 11-year-old body also a joke (or is it pretty cool as a spectator sport)? If we think that the sport of figure skating has become a joke, then a proposal to place greater emphasis on mature artistry is worth considering. And this would not necessitate any changes in the official age limit rules.

There is the argument that the current rash of young quadsters are not all that deficient in presentation skills, so everything is fine as it is and no changes are necessary or desirable. However, to me this argument is not completely persuasive because the tech stars will always be able to outpoint the "mature artists" under the IJS.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Ummmmm, dear judges, this age limit conversation wouldn’t be happening if you would judge PCS correctly and stop handing out 9s to lackluster skaters just for doing big elements.....just sayin’.

But, true, maybe, as someone here suggested, try to give a bigger margin for the PCS limit. Say, 90 instead of 80? Idk.

 

[Scott512]

I really wonder what Alexandrovskaya's death has to do with this, she didn't even enter juniors until she was 16. Sounds to me like an excuse to begin talking about this again.

A fix to this "human trafficking" is very simple, just prevent skaters from changing countries without skating and living in the country in question for some years beforehand.

You're 100% correct. What happened to Katia is tragic but her death has nothing to do with the age change. Do we really want skaters like Alysa Killa Kamila Sasha and Aliona in juniors for four freaking seasons? Um no. What the federation's have to do is spend more money to get the proper people in place to better protect the young athletes when they're away from home. Katia was living halfway around the world away from her mother who remained in Russia. That's a major issue right there and it has nothing to do with the age issue in figure skating. But there are no perfect answers and some people will always fall through the cracks just like in life. That's why I go off and say that Sports and that's life they sometimes go together.

I bet they use the tragic death of Katia to pound the issue of the age rule even more. And my opinion it's in very poor taste to use that poor girl's tragic passing for their benefit to raise the age rule. Raising the age limit would not have saved Katia. The medical conditions she got like epilepsy changed everything for her. Sad.

 

[sailormoon]

Special investigation: ISU to introduce radical changes to stamp out ‘trading’ of young athletes
Underage figure-skaters would be banned from the sport under a radical proposal from the sport’s world governing body in the wake of Katia Alexandrovskaya’s death.

In an extraordinary backflip, the International Skating Union (ISU) says it wants to raise the minimum competition age from 15 to 17 to stamp out the international ‘trading’ of young athletes.

This is not a very reputable source, which is associated with The Australian and The Daily Telegraph that interviewed Jan Dijkema. They compared the international ‘trading’ of young athletes to human trafficking, which was categorically denied by the ISU. Katia Alexandrovskaya did the country a great favor by representing Australia at Sochi.

 

[flanker]

Shameful excuse.

A variation of your fix: the "other country" should do a better job supporting the guest skater by providing a better package, e.g., by taking care of the skater for several years, financially, after the contract ends. The skater, after missing several seasons in his/her native country, needs some time to recover.

Fully agree with this. I think there should be a rule that if some other country takes a foreign skater to represent them, the new country should undertake that they should provide full support (incl. providing life costs) of the athlete for some time, like five years, next two olympic cycles or something like that.

 

[karne]

Fully agree with this. I think there should be a rule that if some other country takes a foreign skater to represent them, it should undertake that they should provide full support (incl. providing life costs) of the athlete for some time, like five years, next two olympic cycles or something like that.

So small feds are never allowed to import again?

 

[Skatesocs]

So small feds are never allowed to import again?

I do not see how that means small feds are never allowed to import again. But even if it did... Is that more important than athlete welfare...?

This particular point I've never been able to understand from you on this thread. Number of spots shouldn't change because judges go based off reputation, so impose an artificial limit on others instead of making those small feds be more responsible towards funding their programs (and fix the judging while we're at it). Now, small feds won't be able to import, so don't impose responsibility of athlete welfare on them...?

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

There is no need for change in the minimum age. If a 14 can win over a 20 then sorry but the sport from athletic perspective is a joke.

Not to play devil's advocate here, but if the ISU were to change the minimum age, they wouldn't say it was because 14 year olds can beat 20 year olds, but rather for the mental health of the athletes, ie a 15 year old shouldn't have to face the pressure of the olympics or worlds. After all, isn't that the entire reason junior categories exist? To be a less stressful way to compete internationally? (Though that idea has waned recently) Even though Valieva or even Samodelkina could likely beat most of the senior ladies, the ISU has decided that 13 is too young for worlds or the olympics.
I don't necessarily agree with them raising the age to 17, but I do agree with the idea of age limits, because I do think there is an age too young to face international pressure.

 

[Mathman]

Not to play devil's advocate here, but if the ISU were to change the minimum age, they wouldn't say it was because 14 year olds can beat 20 year olds, but rather for the mental health of the athletes, ie a 15 year old shouldn't have to face the pressure of the olympics or worlds...

Yes, there are many reasons why age limits are a good thing.

However -- there is a separate question. If 13 year olds can skate better than 17 year olds, does this make skating a "child's sport" that has no business being in the Olympics, having a world championship, charging admission for spectators to watch competitions, etc.?

Maybe changes in the sport would be more appropriate than changes in the age rules.