Results of removing jump pass in Men's FS

[zebobes]

I've been thinking about the effects of having one less jumping pass in Men's FS. At first I was sad, but after thinking about it, I think that it will force innovation in combos for Men that will be potentially quite exciting.

Right now, men can have at most 12 jumps in a FS. If you don't have a quad, but have mastered all 6 triples, the most triples you can jump is 8. That leaves 4 jumps. If you fill it with two 2A, that means you will need at least 2 additional doubles to maximize your points.

Now, with only 11 jumps in a FS, and the Zayak rules, things get interesting. Ideally, to get the most points, you want to have 2 3Axels, and 2 3 Lutzes. In order to fit in all the triples, you need to be able to have as many different kinds of combos as possible.

Here is one possible jump layout.

3Axel, 3Axel-3Toe, 3Lutz-1/2Loop-3Sal, 2Axel-3Loop, 3Lutz, 3Flip, 2Axel.

With this layout, you would only have a 1/2Loop that is a lower value jump, and you would have an 8 triple program with two 2Axels and repeating the highest value Triple jumps.

Now, I've always wondered if people will start jumping double half loops or triple half loops in attempts to increase base value, but how will IJS handle it? Is this legal? Why can't IJS just label that jump as an Euler, instead of this weird 1/2loop designator, and have 7 different kinds of jumps? If you jump a 3 1/2Loop and a 3Loop in the same program, will IJS count it as the same jump?

Now if you add people like Yuzuru Hanyu, Nathan Chen, Boyang Jin, and Shoma Uno into the mix, hungry to add quads and crazy combos, the reduced jumping passes will force even more creativity. I wrote a more detailed post in the Hanyu fan fest, but we've seen him attempt some crazy jump combos this week. 2Sal-1/2Loop-4Sal, 3A-3T-3Loop, 3A-1/2Loop-4S, that make me think he is thinking about his strategy post Olympics. As for Nathan, who has stronger toe jumps, I wouldn't be surprised to see him attempt to have a combination ending in 4T, and maybe a 1/2Loop-3Flip combination. Boyang's dream is to one day do a program with only quads, and who knows what that will look like.

What do you guys think?

 

[4everchan]

what i am thinking about jump layouts is that new rule or no new rule, the 3A will not be the jump to repeat automatically.... Kevin Reynolds repeats his 4t and 4s...
Nathan feels better repeating the 4T and 3t (for combos)... I'd be surprised if Yuzu dropped his glorious 3A... but even if Patrick's 3A is more and more beautiful, higher and more reliable (aside from the LP this weekend) I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to repeat his 4S and 4T as well... I don't think it will happen... but I am simply saying that I wouldn't be surprised if it were to happen... Boyang is another one who might be thinking about repeating quads before 3A...

So yes... the half loop combo will be necessary to include the 3S or the 3F... but moreover, I feel like the X-3L combo will come back into fashion.... We had a couple years when they were done in the men... in the 90s i think???? we would see 3A-3L... or 3F-3L and of course some 4t-3t-3l .... i think those will be brought back when there's one less pas...

I think that ISU only needs to do one thing to favour cool combos.... stop adding the value of each jump and assign a BV for each combo based on difficulty...

for instance a 2a-4T would be really fun to see or skaters doing 3t-4t... etc... but right now, there's no point.

Regarding Yuzu 2s-1/2loop-4s... it looked as if he were really just trying to go for a 4S and then popped it and refired... I am not too sure he plans to do half loop combos tagging a 4S at the end of them... many skaters already struggle with the 3A-1/2L-3S and the salchow is often doubled... that would be risky in a combo that requires so much flow... for instance, Patrick dropped doing those after Sochi... much less risky to do a 3Lz-2t-2l than the half loop...

anyways, you are right, it will be interesting and finally, perhaps a bit more variety will come out of this... however, when new combos come in, others go away... we see less and less 3A-3T... and i think that this is one of the combos that will not be encouraged under the new rules...

 

[zebobes]

anyways, you are right, it will be interesting and finally, perhaps a bit more variety will come out of this... however, when new combos come in, others go away... we see less and less 3A-3T... and i think that this is one of the combos that will not be encouraged under the new rules...

I agree with most of what you wrote, except for your last statement. I actually think we will see more of 3A-3T then less. We usually see 3A-2T, because there is no reason to do a 3T there when you can add 3T to an easier triple. If you can't do a quad, and you want to do every triple, you will probably add the 3T to your 3A, because out of the three combo possibilities, the 3T is the easiest.

If more and more skaters learn their quads earlier, you are right, they won't have a need to repeat their 3A.

 

[4everchan]

oh ... i just think that since more and more quads will be repeated, the skaters would actually use a 3T at the end of a quad... and 3A would be more convenient either on their own as not repeated or if repeated, perhaps strong 3A jumpers will tag the 1/2 loop combos with them or the 3Loop...

now i am curious about what you call euler and if really we will start seeing double versions of these that would be fun

 

[Rissa]

-3Lo might become more popular?

 

[gkelly]

Now, I've always wondered if people will start jumping double half loops or triple half loops in attempts to increase base value, but how will IJS handle it? Is this legal? Why can't IJS just label that jump as an Euler, instead of this weird 1/2loop designator, and have 7 different kinds of jumps?

It would be legal; it would count as a double or triple loop.

I won't be surprised if we see doubles attempted in the not-so-distant future. I don't think we'll see triples until after doubles have become common.

I would expect that the more rotation on the half-loop/euler, the harder it would be to put a triple salchow afterward because with tighter revolutions in air, there would be less horizontal flow coming out on the back inside edge, which would have more tendency to curve more tightly on the ice.

This is a similar reason why we tend to see more triple something-double toe-double loop combinations than straight triple something-double loop.

So I don't expect double half loop/euler combinations to become common any time soon. I think some skaters may try them in practice and realize they don't achieve the goal of allowing triple-double-triple combinations with ease.

For the same reason, it would be difficult to get enough flow out of a double one-foot axel (FO takeoff, BI landing) to put a triple salchow or flip afterward. But if anyone could manage it, that would be another way to put a non-toe loop, non-loop jump at the end of a combo without "wasting" the first jump as a single axel.

If you jump a 3 1/2Loop and a 3Loop in the same program, will IJS count it as the same jump?

Yes, they would both count as triple loops because the different jumps are distinguished by their takeoff edges, not by the landing edges.

In order for there to be a seventh kind of listed jump, the takeoff would have to be different from any of the standard six. Walley (back inside edge of the landing foot) or inside axel (forward inside edge of the landing foot) would be the obvious candidates.

But it's not easy to get even doubles off those takeoffs, and there's no reward for doing them now while they're considered nonlisted jumps, except the novelty value of a very difficult transition if someone could pull it off.

If the ISU did put them into the scale of values, at least as doubles and triples even if they leave the singles as nonlisted/transitions, then there would be incentive for skaters to try to learn them. I think the doubles for both would need to have base values at least as high as double axel and possibly closer to triple loop. With high enough values written into the SoV it would be worthwhile for skaters to try to learn them. Again, I don't think we would see triples until after doubles had become common.

So none of these options would be an immediate solution to including more triples or at least higher-value doubles in the jump count. Maybe someday.

 

[zebobes]

Yes, they would both count as triple loops because the different jumps are distinguished by their takeoff edges, not by the landing edges.

Your whole post was fascinating, thank you for the explanation. Since the men have so many other ways to improve on Base Value, perhaps the double half loop/Euler is more likely to come from the ladies? It seems like they are all looking for little ways to up their Base Value without jumping a quad. On the other hand, it's not a huge jump in base value either, so I'm not sure if the risk is worth it.

 

[Warwick360]

Wait, what? Since when? I saw this and checked the Results page for GPF (wondering how I could be oblivious to change) and there's still 8 jumping passes for men.

So, when's the change rolling in? Or is it just one of those theory pieces of "what if" something was going to happen?

 

[zebobes]

Wait, what? Since when? I saw this and checked the Results page for GPF (wondering how I could be oblivious to change) and there's still 8 jumping passes for men.

So, when's the change rolling in? Or is it just one of those theory pieces of "what if" something was going to happen?

The changes would be coming in the 2018-2019 season, after the next Olympics. The ISU tends to make big changes after each Olympic cycle, and I think they voted in favor of the change at the last ISU council. The details are yet to be decided. Pairs FS will also become shorter, but we aren't sure which element they are removing.

 

[Warwick360]

The changes would be coming in the 2018-2019 season, after the next Olympics. The ISU tends to make big changes after each Olympic cycle, and I think they voted in favor of the change at the last ISU council. The details are yet to be decided. Pairs FS will also become shorter, but we aren't sure which element they are removing.

Thanks for the answer. Also, is there any word on changing the Scoring system itself yet? I read somewhere in the forum that they were planning to do a complete overhaul, or was that just a rumour? Because if that's the only change, then I think solo skates won't feel much different post Olympics.

 

[Tutto]

Not exactly on topic but I wish ISU would limit the number of quads in FS to three otherwise this sport will have to be re-named.

 

[Warwick360]

Not exactly on topic but I wish ISU would limit the number of quads in FS to three otherwise this sport will have to be re-named.

Personally, I think there should be no limit on quads. Otherwise, how can we still call it a sport if we choose to place a barrier to the level of difficulty? It would only play into the hands of those who try to dictate what is a sport and what is a performance art.

 

[elif]

Not exactly on topic but I wish ISU would limit the number of quads in FS to three otherwise this sport will have to be re-named.

Lets rename then. I don't wont to see junior ladies content winning important medals or a skater wins no matter what because of huge PCS days again. How we survived those days I have no idea.:eeking: Im happy with ''Men Figure Skating'' now. If we rename to ''Quad Figure Skating'' Im still going to be happy. No problem.

 

[Biellmann]

Personally, I think there should be no limit on quads. Otherwise, how can we still call it a sport if we choose to place a barrier to the level of difficulty? It would only play into the hands of those who try to dictate what is a sport and what is a performance art.

Oh, so it was not a sport when the men jumped only triple jumps? :think:
And it's not a sport when they jump "only" 3 quads? So, how many quads should young boys jump? It's still called FIGURE skating, remember?
In every sport there has to be a barrier to the level of difficulty, for safety's sake

 

[Warwick360]

Oh, so it was not a sport when the men jumped only triple jumps? :think:
And it's not a sport when they jump "only" 3 quads? So, how many quads should young boys jump? It's still called FIGURE skating, remember?
In every sport there has to be a barrier to the level of difficulty, for safety's sake

First of all, you're just twisting my words as you go. So congratulations on that achievement.

Going back to the point I was making, what I mean is, in sports we try not to place too much boundaries. We try to see the extent of what one can achieve. Of course as you mentioned, for safety's sake, we need to place restrictions on some things like a back flip for example. But these guys have proven they can do the quads safely and most viewers seem to (if the forums are anything to go by) like seeing them do new quads, so personally I see no problem. If we were going to stick with the "it's called FIGURE skating, remember?" argument just like Jill Trenary did in the 90s, I doubt we'd see any of the technical marvels that we do right now.

 

[Mrs. P]

Honestly, I don't think there will be a huge change. Maybe one less 2A or other lower-point jump.

I hope maybe we might see cleaner programs with one less jumping pass. People act like triple jumps are no big deal, but they still use up energy/stamina. There's a reason people end up popping so-called "easy" triple jumps at the end.

 

[ancientpeas]

If we go back the FIGURE skating argument we will have to bring back FIGURES. And if you think people argue now imagine having the entire event basically decided before the TV cameras even got turned on?

I know I'm in the minority on this but.. I'd rather see a skater do a triple jump with speed and grace with transitions and in a complete program that is artistically beautiful than a quadfest. I think is this hanyu's big advantage. He seems able to do both most of the time. I'd rather see a skater do a double axle than a fall on a triple. But the marking system doesn't reward that. It rewards trying the bigger elements and so that's what they do. I think a lot of them wouldn't try the harder elements and would go for clean, well done simpler jumps but you can't win with that kind program. Even someone with 2 falls on quads is going to be beat someone with no quads most of the time. But the falling takes away from the program imo. While lots of quads is exciting it's not why I watch. I watch for the program (and I'm entertained by all sorts of programs not just artsy ones), musicality and beautiful elements. A beautiful spin or spiral can move me just as much as a jump but a spin gets 3 points and a jump combo can get 16 or more. In the math game which would you focus on as a skater who wants to win?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

If we go back the FIGURE skating argument we will have to bring back FIGURES

I'd rather watch the ice freezing after the zamboni resurfacing :furious:

 

[ancientpeas]

I'd rather watch the ice freezing after the zamboni resurfacing :furious:

The only thing that would make FIGURES coming back acceptable would be if it was full contact figures. Fans able to throw stuffed animals at you while you try to concentrate and weird sound effects if you make a mistake so the whole crowd knows that you did because otherwise did anyone actually know when a figure was well done or not?

 

[Alchamei]

I actually had no clue about this rule change until recently! Is there a thread where the info was firstly brought and discussed?