Results of removing jump pass in Men's FS

[Yatagarasu]

Any attempt to limit the number of quads will just end up stifling the sport. We already had this argument when the quads showed up and as far as I am concerned, it's a better sport now, that has progressed immensely in the men's category.

About the change, I think those who have quads, multiple quads, are those who are skaters with an advantage because then they can experiment with some very interesting combinations to try and drive the BV upwards anyway, even with the one jump pass less, while avoiding Zayak. If the ISU keeps the current scoring system, so a 3-4 is valued the same as a 4-3, then it's an opportunity missed IMO because this is precisely the right time to get those interesting, more difficult jump combinations to show up and to reward them.

But if it stays the same, again it's the multiple quad guys who have the advantage as I said. I guess we might start seeing things like Yuzuru's practice yesterday - 3A-1Lo-4S, 2S-1Lo-4S, 4T-3T-3Lo, 3A-3T-3Lo and why not, even a 4-4.

 

[nolangoh]

Actually I would like to see a combination of more than 3 jumps. Not necessarily all triples, but a triple or quad with a few doubles in a series sometime look exciting to me.

 

[ancientpeas]

Any attempt to limit the number of quads will just end up stifling the sport. We already had this argument when the quads showed up and as far as I am concerned, it's a better sport now, that has progressed immensely in the men's category.

About the change, I think those who have quads, multiple quads, are those who are skaters with an advantage because then they can experiment with some very interesting combinations to try and drive the BV upwards anyway, even with the one jump pass less, while avoiding Zayak. If the ISU keeps the current scoring system, so a 3-4 is valued the same as a 4-3, then it's an opportunity missed IMO because this is precisely the right time to get those interesting, more difficult jump combinations to show up and to reward them.

But if it stays the same, again it's the multiple quad guys who have the advantage as I said. I guess we might start seeing things like Yuzuru's practice yesterday - 3A-1Lo-4S, 2S-1Lo-4S, 4T-3T-3Lo, 3A-3T-3Lo and why not, even a 4-4.

How would you feel about them giving more marks for spins and footwork? I'd like to see good spins and footwork rewarded. When I think about to all the Kurt Browning programs I enjoyed (Kurt-1st man to land a quad in competition) it's his footwork sequences that often stand out. Brian Orser also always had very clever feet.

 

[Mrs. P]

How would you feel about them giving more marks for spins and footwork? I'd like to see good spins and footwork rewarded. When I think about to all the Kurt Browning programs I enjoyed (Kurt-1st man to land a quad in competition) it's his footwork sequences that often stand out. Brian Orser also always had very clever feet.

I hope the +5/-5 GOE rule will help in that regard. I do think spins and steps should be rewarded more. Not to the level of a quad, but I think there needs to be a little more distinction between the ones who truly are the best at it and the rest.

 

[ancientpeas]

I hope the +5/-5 GOE rule will help in that regard. I do think spins and steps should be rewarded more. Not to the level of a quad, but I think there needs to be a little more distinction between the ones who truly are the best at it and the rest.

True, spins should be not get the same marks as quads. The GOE thing scares me because I don't think the judges use it properly right now. They throw around positive GOEs like they are christmas presents. or Oprah with cars on her favourite things episodes.

 

[Yatagarasu]

How would you feel about them giving more marks for spins and footwork? I'd like to see good spins and footwork rewarded. When I think about to all the Kurt Browning programs I enjoyed (Kurt-1st man to land a quad in competition) it's his footwork sequences that often stand out. Brian Orser also always had very clever feet.

I would definitely support that as I want to see really great ones properly rewarded too, as long we are not talking about equaling a quad here; it isn't the same level of difficulty. I would like to see this happen outside of the GOE system (so the +/-5 thing) because I feel like that'll just take us back to the same old, same old where some get the GOEs like candies but I do think we're out of luck on that one more than likely.

I mean one reason why I would like the change of 3-4 rule, so to call it, is precisely because it helps even out the field somewhat and because proper rewards for more difficult, better executed element really should be a given. This does then include the spins and footwork, for sure because we'd be talking of scoring adjustment across the board. It would also help, IMO, skating as a sport in terms of quality of what we're seeing.

 

[ancientpeas]

I would definitely support that as I want to see really great ones properly rewarded too, as long we are not talking about equaling a quad here; it isn't the same level of difficulty. I would like to see this happen outside of the GOE system (so the +/-5 thing) because I feel like that'll just take us back to the same old, same old where some get the GOEs like candies but I do think we're out of luck on that one more than likely.

I mean one reason why I would like the change of 3-4 rule, so to call it, is precisely because it helps even out the field somewhat and because proper rewards for more difficult, better executed element really should be a given. This does then include the spins and footwork, for sure because we'd be talking of scoring adjustment across the board. It would also help, IMO, skating as a sport in terms of quality of what we're seeing.

I agree with both main points: Spins and footwork should not get the same points as quads but good spins and quads should be rewarded more than they currently are. I also agree on the GOE problem. If the judges actually gave them out fairly it would work but they aren't so. I still say if zero is the base GOE most things should get a zero. That's the " this is the standard level for the jump and there is nothing wrong with it but it doesn't make us say wow". Now if people see a zero GOE they are all "what was wrong with it?" "Underscored". But in fact zero should be the norm not plus 1 or 2 as it seems to be now.

 

[gkelly]

Now if people see a zero GOE they are all "what was wrong with it?" "Underscored". But in fact zero should be the norm not plus 1 or 2 as it seems to be now.

0 is the norm. The skaters who contend for medals are better than the norm, therefore they tend to earn positive GOEs for their elements when they avoid mistakes.

If you changed the standard such that 0 already encompasses not just adequate but good height, distance, speed and flow, edge quality, control, etc., and more were required to achieve +1, then the vast majority of skaters who can land adequate jumps that are only average in those areas would have to get negative GOEs for clean jumps.

 

[narcissa]

Does this mean old "records" are going to be really hard to break?

 

[TGee]

0 is the norm. The skaters who contend for medals are better than the norm, therefore they tend to earn positive GOEs for their elements when they avoid mistakes.

If you changed the standard such that 0 already encompasses not just adequate but good height, distance, speed and flow, edge quality, control, etc., and more were required to achieve +1, then the vast majority of skaters who can land adequate jumps that are only average in those areas would have to get negative GOEs for clean jumps.

In my ideal world, with a post 2018 shift to a 5 point GOE scale we would see that some bullets rate more bonus points than others, and that height and distance are separate bullets...because we do see skaters getting one without the other...

Symmetrically, some downgrades could be more severe than others again depending on the category.

Why? Well, it's hard to argue that certain bullets in the certain list add difficulty on average, but they shouldn't , in many folks' view, be given the same weight as some of the basic essentials that define a good jump, but are not in the mandate of the technical callers: height, distance, quality of landing...

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Any attempt to limit the number of quads will just end up stifling the sport. We already had this argument when the quads showed up and as far as I am concerned, it's a better sport now, that has progressed immensely in the men's category.

About the change, I think those who have quads, multiple quads, are those who are skaters with an advantage because then they can experiment with some very interesting combinations to try and drive the BV upwards anyway, even with the one jump pass less, while avoiding Zayak. If the ISU keeps the current scoring system, so a 3-4 is valued the same as a 4-3, then it's an opportunity missed IMO because this is precisely the right time to get those interesting, more difficult jump combinations to show up and to reward them.

But if it stays the same, again it's the multiple quad guys who have the advantage as I said. I guess we might start seeing things like Yuzuru's practice yesterday - 3A-1Lo-4S, 2S-1Lo-4S, 4T-3T-3Lo, 3A-3T-3Lo and why not, even a 4-4.

That could actually become a really funny thing - if this 'one jump less' rule is supposed to make us see cleaner programs and the skaters safer from injury, it might majorly backfire. Because everyone still wants to win, and the best thing to win is to stuff as many high-number-of-rotation-jumps as possible into your program. So instead of just saying 'well, now we all have a quad/triple less', a lot of the guys would try to find new ways to do that - riskier ways.

If the thing is that we want cleaner programs, then what we need to do is reward cleanliness and cut of more points for falls and other mistakes - I doubt one jump less will lead to cleaner programs. I mean yes, one possible jump less to fall on, but if the guys have their off days, they really don't need one more to find their opportunities. It might give us more guys focused on more choreo or their spins or steps - but IMO, as long as the judges give out GOE and PCS the way they do, we won't. It might also just result in more time the skaters stand around and pose or do crossovers. Bottom line: if we want better scores/competition, we need better judging, the system is fine. Tbh, this looks like another of these halfhearted attempts of the ISU to fix something, that they didn't really think through, and that won't change anything the way they want to in the end.

PS: I really want that better combo reward with actually differentiating between a 4-3 and a 3-4 too. And get the dang sequence penalty away. Burn it. Kill it with fire

 

[ancientpeas]

0 is the norm. The skaters who contend for medals are better than the norm, therefore they tend to earn positive GOEs for their elements when they avoid mistakes.

If you changed the standard such that 0 already encompasses not just adequate but good height, distance, speed and flow, edge quality, control, etc., and more were required to achieve +1, then the vast majority of skaters who can land adequate jumps that are only average in those areas would have to get negative GOEs for clean jumps.

I wonder if that's true though. It would be interesting to see how the judging does reward the jumps. Is zero the average? (if you throw out -3 for falls is 0 actually the average given out?) I wonder if someone like Geek on Ice might know this. She did so much work on the scoring for the GPs she might know something like that. Maybe I should track her down and ask if she knows.

 

[gkelly]

All skaters on the Grand Prix are above average.

You'd have to look at senior B events, all skaters at Europeans and Four Continents, maybe JGP and national competitions and regional competitions in larger federations, etc.

If you're only looking at skaters good enough to get invited to GP events, you will an average of positive GOE for rotated jumps without falls and stepouts. But that is not representative of the sport as a whole.

 

[Mrs. P]

All skaters on the Grand Prix are above average.

You'd have to look at senior B events, all skaters at Europeans and Four Continents, maybe JGP and national competitions and regional competitions in larger federations, etc.

If you're only looking at skaters good enough to get invited to GP events, you will an average of positive GOE for rotated jumps without falls and stepouts. But that is not representative of the sport as a whole.

That would be great data project. If only i had the time to do such things. Still, maybe Geek on Ice and a few others can work on it...it would be interesting to just do a data dump of protocols and see the spectrum of scoring from the start of IJS scoring (which I believe happens in the juvenile level in the US IIRC?).

 

[zebobes]

Honestly, I don't think there will be a huge change. Maybe one less 2A or other lower-point jump.

I hope maybe we might see cleaner programs with one less jumping pass. People act like triple jumps are no big deal, but they still use up energy/stamina. There's a reason people end up popping so-called "easy" triple jumps at the end.

You may be right. I was thinking about how for the ladies, where they all have very similar base value, they have to try to come up with creative ways to up their base value without being able to do a quad. With men, the big difference is those who have a quad have no reason to squeeze as much as they can from each jumping pass. Jason Brown, when he didn't have a quad, really maximized his base value with his jumping passes, (two 3a, two 3lutzes, two 2A) and I'm curious to see what other skaters with similar jumping limitations will do with the new rules. Jason Brown is a special case though, because even among non-quad jumpers, not many squeezed in two 2A as effectively as he did.

It will also be interesting to see with +5GOE, will that mean a higher potential for GOE? Or will they still have the same scaled GOE that they have now, meaning a +5 on a quad will give you 3 GOE points? Also, will they add the values of jumps higher than a 4A, now that we are almost approaching the ceiling of jumps for the men? How much should a Quint Toe be worth?

 

[noskates]

Not exactly on topic but I wish ISU would limit the number of quads in FS to three otherwise this sport will have to be re-named.

Thank you Tutto. I've been saying this for over a year now. This sport is becoming something other than figure skating with all these quad fests.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The rule change is going to make things worse. Men are just going to take out their easiest jump element from the program and at the same time will have to remove 30 seconds from the program. Less time for choreography.

 

[Warwick360]

I wanted to post this question, but I didn't want to create a new thread so....

My question in relation to jumps is, Is it only limited to Toe loop jump where one can have 2 quads and 2 Triples like Nathan Chen did, or can the same be allowed with some other jump like Lutz? When he did those jumps, my idea of Zayak rule basically got blurred out quite a bit.

 

[GF2445]

In my opinion, if they want skaters to have more time, remove the step sequence in the free skate and keep the choreographic sequence- like in the pairs event.
Also, removing a jump pass may help better balance the TES and PCS a little.

 

[4everchan]

they have already removed one step sequence... i hope they don't remove more of that... it's skating after all... that's where we separate the great skaters from the less good ones...

In my opinion, if they want skaters to have more time, remove the step sequence in the free skate and keep the choreographic sequence- like in the pairs event.
Also, removing a jump pass may help better balance the TES and PCS a little.