Short Dance Issue

[rugbyfan]

Oy, I made a long post but somehow I lost it before it posted. Grr!

BTW, until the 1960s or so German was the official language of the ISU.

Some resources you might find useful -- or not so useful, which tells us something about how interested some federations are or aren't in communicating with fans or developing skaters through their websites:

http://www.eislauf-union.de/

http://www.skateaustria.at/
This looks like Austrian equivalent of the US Moves in the Field tests: http://www.skateaustria.at/index.php/lauf-technikklassen.html
The videos of edges and turns in isolation and in simple combinations with the German names might be helpful.

http://www.swissiceskating.ch/de/
There seem to be some Swiss federation rulebook materials here:
http://www.swissiceskating.ch/de/kunstlauf/reglemente/sev
http://www.swissiceskating.ch/de/eistanz/reglemente/sev

Doesn't look very interesting, but it might give some insight into how the sport is run domestically in Switzerland.


Are there active German-language discussion boards about skating?


I tried searching youtube for the few skating-related German words I know.
A German-language how-to series for beginners:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp2y00Wt-7s

There are a lot of instructional videos in English showing beginning and advanced moves. Here are a couple of series that might be useful for associating the English names of the edges and turns with what they look like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzBMKs0sWUg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTJgo6r3HSw&t=8s

Thank you for this. I haven't had time for much of a look, but I hadn't come across those youtube series.

 

[Ender]

That is why I was asking. I have never said that the system is wrong. But it is quite obvious that the SD is dominated by the levels. The majority of users here support this strong influence.

I remember one ISU judge once said he didn't judge ice dance because he didn't consider it as real sport... I guess even with levels it still doesn't make sense to some people.

 

[gkelly]

But it is quite obvious that the SD is dominated by the levels.

And the key points on the pattern dance, though that was less of an issue this past year.

And, in theory anyway, how well/authentically the team expresses the required rhythms, in the opinion of each judge.

Remember, the short dance serves the functions of both the compulsory dances and the original dance of earlier eras (early IJS as well as 6.0). It's not just a shorter free dance, or even a pure OD.

 

[jersey1302]

Usually to a figure skating fan they can tell the difference between levels, there is a big difference between them usually unless they miss the levels by a quarter of a turn here or there. Teams that consistantly dont reach levels you can usually weed out. If there were no levels then what would be the point of pushing the sport technically. They are established to reward teams for completing levels vs teams that can not do them and rewarding points based on that. There is still issues with the judges, some judges score elements with a +3 while on that same element another judge scores then 0 with a GOE so judging is still very subjective in the respect. Thats enough subjectivity for my liking lol.

 

[dorispulaski]

When watching live, one easy way to spot some of the turns in a step sequence that need to be reviewed is whether there is any snow being thrown from blades. Another is that you have any feeling that a turn was jumped instead of carved, it will likely be reviewed.

The TV did not only show a cumulative score box, they also showed how many elements were going to be reviewed by the tech panel after the dance was over. If there is a lot of review going on, you can expect the tech score will take a hit.

 

[all that]

The problem with P/C is that their SD isn't comfortable for them -- they seem to be more like storytellers who need a full FD to draw in an audience. Their lyrical, contemporary style doesn't suit well in an SD where you need to be precise and exhibit great energy, more than expressive. I want to see them do something a bit more edgy/intense/firey for their SD that will incite them to attack their SD, but I don't know if that's too far outside their comfort zone.

Energy v. expression isn't the issue. You need both if you really want to win the SD. The issue is that the SD is testing different things than the FD. It's testing whether you can convincingly skate all the technical elements in different dance styles. The SD is very "crowded" in the sense that you need to convey the style right away because of the short time alloted, while executing all the elements without mistakes.

P/C like to skate in a particular style, and lucky for them, they're excellent at it and have already won Worlds twice with it. But they are young yet, and haven't yet mastered what it takes to skate styles other than their favorite. Once they gain that confidence (which they may already have done after this season), they'll be fine. After all, they're never worse than third place in the SD, which is amazing. I'm sure their coaches know what to do here, and I wouldn't be surprised if they start winning the SD regularly starting next season.

 

[lauravvv]

That is why I was asking. I have never said that the system is wrong. But it is quite obvious that the SD is dominated by the levels. The majority of users here support this strong influence.

But where is the problem in that? Yes, I read your opinion about pattern and step sequence levels being hard to recognize. But skating skills and the skills inherent in holds are (or at least should be) the most important skills in ice dancing, so it makes sense that step sequences, including those in hold, are the most costly/expensive technical elements (in ice dancing). In any case, I don't understand how the execution of technical elements determining the outcome in a competitive program and sport can be a problem.

Also, you said that the overall results are determined by the SD (not in those exact words, but that was the gist). In the case of V/M and P/C at these past worlds it was true. But it's not always like that. The FD is worth more in points anyway, and, with Papadakis/Cizeron, there have been several cases when they have won a competition thanks to their FD after being behind in SD. At 2015 Worlds, they were fourth in the SD, but were so much ahead of everyone in the FD that they won the competition.

And it's not like the levels and technical elements don't matter in FD. And step sequences are still worth more than any other element also in this portion of the competition. A fall or even a stumble on a step sequence can cost a lot in terms of the placing, but so can a loss of several levels due to mistakes/imperfections that are much more difficult to discern. And, yes, a mistake on another FD element, like twizzles, can cost a lot too - we saw what happened to Hubbell/Donohue and Chock/Bates at these past worlds. They fell a lot in standings after being third and fourth in the SD, and no PCS could help them.

In the same way, PCS and GOE do matter in the SD. Yes, Hubbell/Donohue were third in the SD thanks to their levels/technical score, leaving teams with higher PCS behind, but Papadakis/Cizeron still were in front of them despite being behind on the technical score, and that was thanks to their PCS and GOE.

So I think that it's all balanced. Competitions can be lost or won both in the SD and FD, and both technical elements/levels and PCS matter.

As for V/M not being so great in the FD in your opinion, Performance is only a half of one of the five components. There are components that objectively go (or, in some cases, can go) Virtue/Moir's way compared to all other teams they left behind (apart from P/C). Plus, Peformance being the most subjective component, you can't really argue with judges opinion (no matter, honest or not) on it, except in cases when a skater is performing with a stony face, or so OTT that it's impossible to go any further in that regard. This definitely was not the case with V/M. And then there is the Execution part of that component which is not about the execution of technical elements, but about things like carriage and clarity of movement (mentioned in the criteria for this component). I think it would not be so wrong to say that it's largely about the execution of choreography. I doubt that anyone with a clear mind who is trying to be objective can deny that V/M are better at this than most of the teams behind them - no matter if they/you like their choreography per se, their music, or their interpretation of it etc. or not.