Should More Singles Skaters Switch To Pairs?

[Skatesocs]

Quite a few posters pointed out that in the Japanese case it's also a height thing and I think that is unfair.

? Can you name one person who said it's a height thing with Japan? Or that every Japanese man is short...? It's about musculature, which every person does point out though. Someone with Han Cong's height but Hanyu's build simply can't succeed at pairs.

Edit: Which also doesn't mean that all Japanese men are skinny. Just that we don't see people in the singles field with a correct build for Pairs so they can switch. Unlike women who have somewhat of an easier path in terms of making a switch there. Which... Is the topic. And produced a confusion as to why Japan isn't investing in making Pairs (or a Ice Dance) a tradition in the country.

 

[Elspeth]

? Can you name one person who said it's a height thing with Japan? Or that every Japanese man is short...? It's about musculature, which every person does point out though. Someone with Han Cong's height but Hanyu's build simply can't succeed at pairs.

I don't mean that people on here have been en masse saying that Japanese men are all short, but it seemed to be an argument made as to why there are less pairs in Japan (right build, tall), which to me is not the reason at all.

most Japanese male figure skaters tend to be on the small side and not suited to couple disciplines

I guess the Fed needs to convert them at a younger age (especially the boys, though I guess there is no way of telling how tall they are going to be).

I think doing ice dance wouldn’t be as problematic for Japanese ladies as doing pairs. Japanese male skaters are not particularly tall and seem to be on the skinny side, In pairs, one needs also someone tall and really strong. It would be hard for someone as skinny as Hanyu to be lifting a girl

I'm surprised tha the Japanese federation does not seem to have a long term strategy to develop the pairs discipline. The potential is huge for them. Why are they not trying to attract tall(ish) and strong young Japanese male skaters ? In my opinion they should work on finding these guys... because they are out there.

If the fed and the country doesn't care about the discipline, it wouldn't matter if they were all built like tanks. Not that nobody has pointed that out, but imo it is really the most relevant thing. Even someone like Hanyu could bulk up quite a bit if he was aiming for that, but he is a singles skater doing quads, so it's not beneficial for him to be bulky. I think Cong said that he had to spend a lot of hours in the gym, because he was scrawny and needed to get stronger. You also need talent, chemistry and a whole host of other things to succeed in pair skating, so it's not just about there not being male skaters in Japan that fit the right build (not saying you have said it's like that).

 

[hanca]

I tell you what, I'd like to interview some skaters who were successful singles who became successful in pairs. I wonder if having to worry about the mood and free time of my partner would get to me before we became successful. When I was dancing professionally, there were times when my partner and I did not get along. I had one partner who I only saw on stage even though we were on tour together. Unless there is a real chemistry, I'd imagine it's quite difficult to go from singles to pairs.

I have to say, I admire how some skaters are able to put their career before their own feelings. Tarasova-Morozov used to be a couple off ice. They split up, but stayed together on ice. It must have been extremely hard in the first few months after the split, but they seem to have managed to turn it into a working relationship.

 

[hanca]

If the fed and the country doesn't care about the discipline, it wouldn't matter if they were all built like tanks. Not that nobody has pointed that out, but imo it is really the most relevant thing. Even someone like Hanyu could bulk up quite a bit if he was aiming for that, but he is a singles skater doing quads, so it's not beneficial for him to be bulky. I think Cong said that he had to spend a lot of hours in the gym, because he was scrawny and needed to get stronger. You also need talent, chemistry and a whole host of other things to succeed in pair skating, so it's not just about there not being male skaters in Japan that fit the right build (not saying you have said it's like that).

I did point it out several times through the thread, that the Japanese federation doesn’t care enough. I have to admit that I don’t really understand why, especially when Japan has such great ladies and men, they could be fighting for team gold if they sorted out pairs and ice dance. It seems to me that pairs are much easier to sort out - ship them to Perm or China and they will come back pretty decent.

 

[hanca]

I tell you what, I'd like to interview some skaters who were successful singles who became successful in pairs. I wonder if having to worry about the mood and free time of my partner would get to me before we became successful. When I was dancing professionally, there were times when my partner and I did not get along. I had one partner who I only saw on stage even though we were on tour together. Unless there is a real chemistry, I'd imagine it's quite difficult to go from singles to pairs.

There were several such ladies in recent years. Gerboldt competed in Europeans in singles and later in pairs with Enbert, Marchei competed even at worlds and Olympics as single and then as pair skater.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

There were several such ladies in recent years. Gerboldt competed in Europeans in singles and later in pairs with Enbert, Marchei competed even at worlds and Olympics as single and then as pair skater.

Miriam Ziegler also skated singles at the international level (Olympics, Europeans, Junior Worlds etc.) until 2013 when she switched to pairs. IIRK she has said in interviews that she always felt very nervous competing singles, but felt much less nervous competing with a partner.

 

[gordana]

I don't mean that people on here have been en masse saying that Japanese men are all short, but it seemed to be an argument made as to why there are less pairs in Japan (right build, tall), which to me is not the reason at all.

If the fed and the country doesn't care about the discipline, it wouldn't matter if they were all built like tanks. Not that nobody has pointed that out, but imo it is really the most relevant thing. Even someone like Hanyu could bulk up quite a bit if he was aiming for that, but he is a singles skater doing quads, so it's not beneficial for him to be bulky. I think Cong said that he had to spend a lot of hours in the gym, because he was scrawny and needed to get stronger. You also need talent, chemistry and a whole host of other things to succeed in pair skating, so it's not just about there not being male skaters in Japan that fit the right build (not saying you have said it's like that).

It was a reason at least for Yuko Kavaguti. In interviews she used to say that it was her dream to be pairs' skater and it was impossible to find some guy of suitable build in Japan, because almost all male skaters there are short and/or skinny. That's why she began competing for Japan with a Russian Aleksandr Markuntsov.

As far as your second thesis is concerned, it is out of question. Tamara Moskvina says it is extremely difficult to make a good pairs' team because the partners should match not only physically from the piont of view height and weight, but also mentally with their charachters and share similar views about their career and goals. So only suitable build isn't worth much on the one hand, but on the other hand the same can be implied to chemistry and personalities if the partners can't do elements to a decent competitive level because the lack of someone's build.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

As others have mentioned, physique (though certainly important) is probably not the main reason for Japan's deficiency in pairs. The average male height in Japan isn't much different from that in China. Perhaps with a larger population, China has a bigger pool of people to choose from, but this is counterbalanced by the fact that virtually the only part of China where skating is a widespread activity (and therefore where the Chinese skating fed scouts for talent to train in state-sponsored sports schools) are the three Northeast provinces of Heilongjiang, Liaoning and Jilin, which have a total population less than that of Japan. Fun fact: almost all of the Chinese national team pairs skaters, past and present, come from one city (Harbin)!

I think support from the federation is the most critical factor required for success in any discipline (pairs or singles). Partner availability, physique etc. are secondary. If you look at the countries which are successful in pairs (Russia, China, US, Canada, Germany) no matter whether the system is private or state-sponsored, a lot of funding is invested specially towards development of pairs. It's a unique discipline and needs special infrastructure in order to thrive - ideally you need specialised pair coaches, abundance of dedicated ice time (no crowded sessions, and not sharing ice with other disciplines) and some sort of system that identifies potential pairs talent and helps with the formation of compatible new teams. And of course, financial support for training costs (which is higher for pairs than singles - you can't make it very far as a self-funded pair skater).

I heard from Japanese friends that there is practically zero public interest in pairs (they also corroborated the previous posters' comments about crowding and lack of ice time in Japan). It's a chicken-and-egg problem - pairs gets far less media attention than singles (which generates a massive amount of revenue through TV coverage, sponsors etc.) so it's harder from a federation perspective to justify spending on it. Yet a certain level of investment is required in order to even produce pairs that are successful enough to capture the interest of the public (and budding skaters). Without the proper training infrastructure and funding, Japanese singles skaters would struggle to switch to pairs even if they wanted to.

Pardon the very long rant! Pairs is my favourite discipline (only to watch, alas - me being a tallish adult female, and wimpy at that )

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I did point it out several times through the thread, that the Japanese federation doesn’t care enough. I have to admit that I don’t really understand why, especially when Japan has such great ladies and men, they could be fighting for team gold if they sorted out pairs and ice dance. It seems to me that pairs are much easier to sort out - ship them to Perm or China and they will come back pretty decent.

Agree, overseas training is a good option for promising Japanese skaters, e.g. with Miura/Kihara in Canada. I think China only trains its own skaters, unfortunately. Russia has been doing some short-term pairs training camps for international skaters - not sure about permanent training arrangements, but if possible it would be great!

 

[hanca]

Agree, overseas training is a good option for promising Japanese skaters, e.g. with Miura/Kihara in Canada. I think China only trains its own skaters, unfortunately. Russia has been doing some short-term pairs training camps for international skaters - not sure about permanent training arrangements, but if possible it would be great!

Russia trains some pairs who compete for other countries. The Croatian pair Petranovich/Souza-Kordeiru and Yatsenko/Parkman who will represent Belarus, are coached in Russia. Russia also happily coaches singles who represent other countries, e.g. in Turberidze’s group there is Tursynbaeva and Kvitelashvili. In fact, Shoma Uno was accepted to Tutberidze’s group (and then decided not to stay). Mao Asada was coached by Tarasova for a while. Ice dancers Hurtado/Khaliavin who represent Spain also train in Russia. So I really can’t see any reason why they shouldn’t coach Japanese pairs. After all, it is not as if Japanese pairs were such a threat to Russian pairs.

 

[Ballade88]

Daisuke recently decided to become an ice dancer so hopefully that will increase the interest in that discipline in Japan. Yuka Sato said in an interview that she wanted to try pairs but it was not an option for her at the time in Japan. I really do think they should try to develop their pairs and dance, especially because the singles disciplines are quite competitive and not every skater will be able make it in the long run. Someone like Satoko Miyahara could be a great pairs skater. And Marin Honda could be great in either pairs or ice dance.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Daisuke recently decided to become an ice dancer so hopefully that will increase the interest in that discipline in Japan. Yuka Sato said in an interview that she wanted to try pairs but it was not an option for her at the time in Japan. I really do think they should try to develop their pairs and dance, especially because the singles disciplines are quite competitive and not every skater will be able make it in the long run. Someone like Satoko Miyahara could be a great pairs skater. And Marin Honda could be great in either pairs or ice dance.

Yes, we've been talking about that here

And Yuka actually skated in pro shows and competitions with her former coaching partner/husband Jason Dungjen as a pairs team.

 

[TallyT]

Daisuke recently decided to become an ice dancer so hopefully that will increase the interest in that discipline in Japan.

If anyone can, it would be him, he and the little group at his time did a lot to build the audience for the men's discipline.

 

[Skater Boy]

Some skaters have done so. Kristi Yamaguchi was a successful pairs and singles skater, Meaghan Duhamel was a singles skater before switching to pairs (and almost switched back to singles in 2018), and Deanna Stellato was a junior world champion in singles before switching to pairs.

I agree it’s 100% a risky move, but the risk could pay off.

Kristi was probably one of the most successful. Cynthia Coull a Canadian at least made worlds in both events. Meaghan Duhamel would have had a reasonable shot to be the third woman in 2018. Canada was/is very weak in ladies with the exception of Osmond and Daleman back in the day.

 

[skylark]

How is "pairs talent" identified before the fact of trying the discipline? This interests me. One way would be desire, but what if the desire isn't initially present? What would a coach look for?

I read that Gordeeva and Grinkov were believed to have pairs talent, and they were seen as having similar skating styles already. Also that they were both comparatively weaker in jumping skills. In the book Skate Talk: Figure Skating in the Words of the Stars, by Steve Milton, Marina Zueva said they were "so pretty" together, even before (IIRC) she worked with them to break down, and then re-create their stroking and jumping styles to match.

A modern-day USA example is that Mitch Moyer suggested that Deanna Stellato try out with Nate Bartholomay. Before that, Deanna, at age 32, had been planning to skate singles again. So I wonder what Mitch saw? She learned the pairs elements very quickly, competing at nationals very well after only about 8 months. Granted, she had a big advantage: a very experienced pairs partner who'd already competed at the Olympics. And Deanna said in an early interview that being thrown was "the most fun ever." I couldn't help comparing that to someone who said in this thread that being thrown was terrifying and painful. Again, Nate was experienced so that likely made all the difference.

 

[gkelly]

How is "pairs talent" identified before the fact of trying the discipline? This interests me. One way would be desire, but what if the desire isn't initially present? What would a coach look for?

The obvious things would be having an appropriate body type and, especially for the girls, fearlessness.

I don't know if there would be indications of physical talent for skills like lifts that would be evident before asking that skater to try some lifts off ice.

 

[FlyingFeather]

The answer to this might already be somewhere in this thread, so please forgive me for asking: Why is it so much more expensive to train in pairs than singles? In my naivete, I assumed that it might be cheaper since the pair is splitting coaching costs/ice time/fees for entering competitions between two people.

 

[Harriet]

The answer to this might already be somewhere in this thread, so please forgive me for asking: Why is it so much more expensive to train in pairs than singles? In my naivete, I assumed that it might be cheaper since the pair is splitting coaching costs/ice time/fees for entering competitions between two people.

Often, I believe, it's extra expensive for the girl's family because they're expected to cover the boy's costs too. All the boy's costs, sometimes, including living expenses. There are so few boys skating pairs compared to so many girls wanting to that it's led to a culture in which the boys and their families get to set their own price tag, which doesn't strike me as ethical or even polite, and which helps to contribute to the problematic culture in pairs (and dance) that we've started to hear about more over the last few years.

And then I think there are some specialised training facilities that pairs teams need for training eg throw jumps off ice? Those probably come with a higher price tag.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Often, I believe, it's extra expensive for the girl's family because they're expected to cover the boy's costs too. All the boy's costs, sometimes, including living expenses. There are so few boys skating pairs compared to so many girls wanting to that it's led to a culture in which the boys and their families get to set their own price tag, which doesn't strike me as ethical or even polite, and which helps to contribute to the problematic culture in pairs (and dance) that we've started to hear about more over the last few years.

And then I think there are some specialised training facilities that pairs teams need for training eg throw jumps off ice? Those probably come with a higher price tag.

Ice Dance is the same way and tends to be even more if the lady needs to get a male skater from overseas.

 

[hanca]

How is "pairs talent" identified before the fact of trying the discipline? This interests me. One way would be desire, but what if the desire isn't initially present? What would a coach look for?
.

I think there are certain things to look for. Are the skaters able to take instructions? Are they able to cooperate together as a team, or does either of them prioritise constantly himself/herself... I was watching two ice dance couples at our rink. One was siblings and the other were good friends. The sibling couple, there was constantly rivalry between them, for example, they liked to point out when the other made a mistake, and that was to the detriment of their overall results. If she made a mistake, got delayed, he would not wait for her, or slightly adjust the pattern in free dance to make it easier to catch up. On one occasion he was already spinning while she was still rushing to him...great, but the spin was supposed to be done together, so him spinning would not give them any extra points. When their parents told them off, his response was that he was where he was supposed to be and doing what he was supposed to do (spinning), so it is all her fault that she wasn’t at the right spot of the rink spinning with him. The good friends couple, their relationship was more working together. They were the same age as the sibling couple, but appeared to be more respectful towards each other and more willing to cover for each other their mistakes. If I was a coach, I know which couple I would like to work with...