The Great Consistency Debate!

[cohen-esque]

I would place Evgenia over Yuna. Evgenia won either gold or silver in her entire senior career, while Yuna was sometimes the 3rd on the podium.

Since both have similar results I’d placed them about equal mostly due to Evgenia’s ability to frequently skate two clean programs but when I thought it about, she does it less often than I’d thought: she’s never had a clean GP or Challenger event and she’s made mistakes at Europeans in 2016 and 2018, and the GPF in 2016, and a slight error at 2016 Worlds.

She still skates clean slightly more often than Yuna did, and unlike Yuna she has two consecutive World titles, but Yuna was able to rise above her rivals to win her first Olympics, whereas Evgenia came away with silver. So both show their cleanest skates at the highest pressure competitions, but Yuna’s overall results were better to me, and she trended up where Med lost ground over the same period of their careers.

We’d be able to make a better comparison if Med makes it to Beijing.

 

[yume]

I would not (only) define consistency by results, given how skaters get these results.
When a consistent skater is rarely on podium most of the time it's because the political marks, PCS and GOEs.

About Kim-Medvedeva debate, Medvedeva is the most consistent by far. Kim in 2006-2010 period had consistently good results but never with two cleans programs aside olympics. Her free was never clean, she was more consistent in the SP but often did mistakes too. And she had a few little meldtowns. She always rose above the rest because of her GOEs and PCS and rarely URed (URs were really costly). Mao Asada couldn't even win the free skate with a clean performance against a Yuna Kim who fall and pop two jumps.

 

[yoloaxel]

I, too, think consistency should be defined by results, not by the dubious "lands all jumps" criterion.

I think it's both, and they are obviously related - a skater who can land all their jumps and deliver time and time again is also bound, unless they have an extremely low tech, to get better and better results and podium more.

In the past few years Medvedeva has obviously been the most consistent lady both in delivering (she fell like 5 times in 3 years and never missed a combo) and in subsequent podium results (never lower than 2nd). Yuzu is probably the most consistent in men, although with quads consistency becomes a little different. I wouldn't say that missing\falling on one jump is not delivering for men. Either way, he has never been lower than 2nd in the past 3 years, iirc.

I think if you are consistent in delivering your elements, then you will consistently be a podium contender (again, unless your tech is subpar). This is why really good skaters like Wakaba or Daleman have not podiumed nearly as much as they should have with their ability. And, of course, the more you podium the more your PCS rise, like it or not.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Plushy for sure, not only did he end up on the podium more often than not (and usually in first), he pretty much always landed his jumps. Like, I don't think I ever saw him fall on a triple jump ever and with the quad toe only a few times (and like three of those were in the one program )

He did pop jumps sometimes I suppose, but I find that way less disruptive than falling.

 

[yume]

In the past few years Medvedeva has obviously been the most consistent lady both in delivering (she fell like 5 times in 3 years and never missed a combo) and in subsequent podium results (never lower than 2nd).

7 times exactly and she Missed combos
Aside from the 2016-2017 season i wouldn't say she was the cleaniest each season.

 

[Danny T]

On second thoughts, maybe we should reconsider standards to measure consistency in men and ladies, at least starting from the past quad for men. It is easy to say Medvedeva and Miyahara are consistent; it's very visible and it's my first reaction to the question too. But if we take in other factors like jump layouts and the difference between triples and quads, maybe men deserve more leniency.

I took a brief look at competitions the past three years, and these are the jump layouts of the top men* and 2 consistent ladies (Medvedeva, Miyahara).
*Chen is not included because he changed layouts so much and I only looked at 1 comp protocol/season (sorry Nathan). As such, there might be mistakes.

In brief, Yuzuru and Nathan upgraded their layouts the most year after year, even in Olympics year. Boyang and Javi basically kept the same layout. Patrick upgraded for a year, then downgraded for the Olympics. Shoma upgraded significantly in 16-17 season, then kept the same layout for Olympics season. Evgenia kept the exact same layout for 3 years. Satoko switched 2A-3T to 3Lz-3T for 16-17 season, then kept the layout for Olys. I didn't have time to go through other ladies' layouts, but I'm going to hazard a guess that their layouts are mostly similar year after year (do correct me if I'm wrong).

I think Yuzuru and Nathan might have an excuse for bombing every once in a while because they have to get used to different layouts every season (or every other comp in Nathan's case). If they had kept the same layout, they could've been more consistent. For example, the last time Yuzuru kept the same layout for PW he went clean 5 times in a row (2 of them at the Olympics no less) and he looked like he could do Chopin with 4S and 4T in his sleep - and did so twice under career-ending injuries. The other guys, well, outside of inconsistency, it might just be the multiple quads.

Results-wise, Yuzuru, Nathan and Shoma are the most consistent throughout, Boyang is consistent at peaking at the right time, and everyone needs a prayer circle for Patrick and Javi.

 

[yoloaxel]

7 times exactly and she Missed combos
Aside from the 2016-2017 season i wouldn't say she was the cleaniest each season.

I’m pretty sure that the times she missed a combo she did it at some other point? I may be wrong, but I’m sure she was the most consistent in 2015-2016 as well

 

[yume]

I may be wrong, but I’m sure she was the most consistent in 2015-2016 as well

If we talk about mistakes, my memory tells me that she did 6 obvious mistakes (4 falls+ 2 step-outs). I don't count the worlds SP mistake on combo since it was not that bad.
My memory also tells me that Miyahara did less obvious errors than her

 

[Shayuki]

But if they could perform all their elements with high quality time after time, theoretically, shouldn't it follow that they would podium or at least be placed above top 10 time after time as well? It's not like judges actually give skaters a medal just by sheer inflation of PCS, without it being justified by their TES.

Well, Anna Tarusina for instance didn't even get any international appearances despite being very consistent. Now, it's true that she got a couple of negative GOE elements this season(attempted -3lo combo, edge call on Lutz, a popped jump) but she had zero falls and she had tons of competitions where she landed every jump. Yet she wasn't even on team Russia's radar. But just how is a skater landing everything time after time an inconsistent skater even if she gets only 51-60 PCS for her free skates?

Ah, and Kostner definitely disagrees with your last sentence.

 

[xeyra]

Results-wise, Yuzuru, Nathan and Shoma are the most consistent throughout, Boyang is consistent at peaking at the right time, and everyone needs a prayer circle for Patrick and Javi.

In terms of actual consistency in delivering layouts, I think of the men, Shoma seems to be the more consistent on average. He may do a mistake or two, but he never pops and notwithstanding a few lower scores, his FS scores never really oscilate quite as much as, say, Yuzuru's, who can have very low lows (ACI/SC) and very high highs (WR galore yo!). Nathan has the potential to be quite consistent in a 4-5 quad layout, now that he's landed 6 of them, but we'll see next season. Yuzuru tends to pop a lot but what he does deliver tends to be high quality, so it can make up for the loss in BV from the pops. So you could say he's not as consistent as the previous two, but he also has more quality in his delivery of said layouts and lately he hasn't even fallen that much.

I kind of always expected men doing triples to be more consistent in landing their layouts than men doing quads, because of the lower difficulty, but it's surprising how many can't deliver their content cleanly with any frequency either. I think last season I'd say maybe Misha Ge and Matteo Rizzo were good examples of consistent non-quad skaters. Especially Matteo, considering how many competitions he did.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

For me, consistency is not defined by results. Kostner gets good results, but when was the last time she didn't make several mistakes in her free program? Osmond also gets good results, but is only consistent in that she always has at least one error in her free skate. Kim never ended off the podium but she made a ton of mistakes -- that's just good results and relative lack of competition. To me, that's not consistency. Consistency is Anna Tarusina not falling at all in the season, or Evgenia Medvedeva, who did fall (mainly while injured, though) but who always has the mental strength to make up her errors enough so that it doesn't really matter. Consistency is also Satoko Miyahara, who does make mistakes, but rarely, and has the rest of it to back her up.

 

[chopinskate]

NOTE: Not a rant.

While I'm pretty sure back in 2005-2010 there were already great techniques on triples, one have to wonder how developed those techniques are compared to now, particularly since in the 6.0. system, underrotations or right edge take-off weren't a big issue in relation to CoP, so coaches may have been forced to tweak in some of their techniques to get them right.

Not sure I agree with this. While yes the coaching probably teaches how to deal with under-rotations better, I also think the hyper-emphasis on scores has seen a rise in poor technique on jumps so they are landed more consistently.

First off, here's Midori Ito's 3T-3T from her 1990 Worlds LP: https://youtu.be/yvgWI8QDrzQ?t=3m45s

Now, here's Kimmie Meisner's -3T in her 2007 Nationals LP. https://youtu.be/3chlFW5px9E?t=1m49s
In comparison, here's Yuna Kim's -3T in her 2007 Worlds LP https://youtu.be/EOEtiTNX6gc?t=1m5s

Note the more swinging take off in Meissner's case.

Now compare both their technique to this, Medvedeva's -3T in her 2017 worlds LP: https://youtu.be/JRyl9ROnzec?t=59s
And Daleman's CoC 2017 SP, for the 3T-3T (both of them) https://youtu.be/SHfSjSyaP-4?t=48s

Note the difference in technique from Kim, and the similarity to Meissner. Kim has a purer technique, and in fact just jumps right back into her -3T, and doesn't swing her free leg into the air to propel her into rotation.

I think that in the 6.0 era, URs and edge calls notwithstanding, the skaters still did learn purer technique, because "consistency", and landing all jumps mattered less. Sure, you were probably off the podium if you fell, but then you could also put in your best jumps then, as there wasn't a concept of "base value". Artistry also mattered more. Now that you simply need to have a 7 triple LP to remain competitive, these less pure techniques may be used to achieve consistency. They need to get all the jumps, and quickly. You get PCS boosts for consistency anyway.

In fact, I think this might be happening in the men's quad race. On one hand you have Yuzuru Hanyu and Boyang Jin, and on the other you have Vincent Zhou and Shoma Uno. They simply need to have quads (and 4 of them) to remain competitive, and so Zhou and Uno use technique not as pure, so they can learn the quads more quickly and do them. It's not penalized, so it's a free pass.

 

[Izabela]

NOTE: Not a rant.




Not sure I agree with this. While yes the coaching probably teaches how to deal with under-rotations better, I also think the hyper-emphasis on scores has seen a rise in poor technique on jumps so they are landed more consistently.

First off, here's Midori Ito's 3T-3T from her 1990 Worlds LP: https://youtu.be/yvgWI8QDrzQ?t=3m45s

Now, here's Kimmie Meisner's -3T in her 2007 Nationals LP. https://youtu.be/3chlFW5px9E?t=1m49s
In comparison, here's Yuna Kim's -3T in her 2007 Worlds LP https://youtu.be/EOEtiTNX6gc?t=1m5s

Note the more swinging take off in Meissner's case.

Now compare both their technique to this, Medvedeva's -3T in her 2017 worlds LP: https://youtu.be/JRyl9ROnzec?t=59s
And Daleman's CoC 2017 SP, for the 3T-3T (both of them) https://youtu.be/SHfSjSyaP-4?t=48s

Note the difference in technique from Kim, and the similarity to Meissner. Kim has a purer technique, and in fact just jumps right back into her -3T, and doesn't swing her free leg into the air to propel her into rotation.

I think that in the 6.0 era, URs and edge calls notwithstanding, the skaters still did learn purer technique, because "consistency", and landing all jumps mattered less. Sure, you were probably off the podium if you fell, but then you could also put in your best jumps then, as there wasn't a concept of "base value". Artistry also mattered more. Now that you simply need to have a 7 triple LP to remain competitive, these less pure techniques may be used to achieve consistency. They need to get all the jumps, and quickly. You get PCS boosts for consistency anyway.

In fact, I think this might be happening in the men's quad race. One one hand you have Yuzuru and Boyang, and on the other you have Vincent Zhou and Shoma Uno. They simply need to have quads (and 4 of them) to remain competitive, and so Zhou and Uno use technique not as pure, so they can learn the quads more quickly and do them. It's not penalized, so it's a free pass.

I'm actually trying to side step this issue by trying to approach this in general sense. If I were to pick the best jumper of each quad/era and make comparison, I would totally point out that same thing. I didn't want to make a skater to skater comparison because it would open up worms and further complicate how we view "consistency." (You know where I stand when it comes to who has better and perfect technique on jumps).

When I say development of technique, I wasn't referring to case by case basis, but the teachability of a proper technique in general, and how coaches and skaters today, in comparison to before, have better access and more variety of samples to review and scrutinize to better their own technique in terms of stabilizing the jumps. For example, if we really want to view generational differences between "consistency of jumping" technique from one era to another era, I wouldn't necessarily pick a skater, but a competition. I would go to the junior side here, and would compare the 2006 JWC to 2018 JWC, and see that in the final group of 2006 JWC, no one had a clean free skate. Yuna double footed on her landing on one of her combos, Mao singled several of her jumps, Zukowski underrotated her jumps (not to mention she had bad technique on her jumps), Takeda, Sawada, Czisny, Chae-Hwa, the list goes on. If you watch them, Yuna actually stands out because she's the one who at least have her triples under control. In this case, she was an anomaly. But then you go to 2018 JWC, and you see kids doing 3Lz-3T with much ease in terms of landing, they are better at controlling their jumps and rotating them. If you include Yuna in there, her jumps would probably still stand out in terms of quality, but not in a way that she's a novelty. Because again, as I've mentioned, in this period, proper triple jump techniques are well established, skaters tend to now go to high profile coaches (back in the days your parents can be your coach), and the accessibility is much better. I don't think even though Ito has better jumping technique compared to skaters nowadays, her videos would be highly accessible with the advantage of HD, slow-mo etc. etc. So, across the board, I would say skaters nowadays tend to be more consistent on landing their triples (irrespective of whether they get the height and/or distance of Ito's and Yuna's jumps), because techniques on triples are well established now. (And of course, we shouldn't also forget to mention that a 3-3 becomes a mandatory and normal feature of a program for a female skater to be competitive today because Yuna made it a staple in the ladies discipline.)

But, and to underline your point, just because coaches and skaters now have better knowledge of the proper mechanics of the jumps to replicate or review, doesn't mean they have the purest jump technique. Skaters today may have better control on their landings, can try more difficult jumps, but their quality may also be questionable. It just means skaters now know the timing, or the ideal air position, the amount of power needed to make those rotations, and landing. (They also may know how to compromise different areas of their jumps, just so they could get the landings too )

And of course, we are not even talking about the differences in judging (in terms of leniency) from generation to generation. (Unless we want to see further revision of history).

And yes, it's totally different on the men's side, because techniques on quads aren't well established yet. If Ladies singles will be heading towards quad era, I'm pretty sure consistency on landing (across the board) will follow the same trajectory as with Men.

 

[yume]

For me, consistency is not defined by results. Kostner gets good results, but when was the last time she didn't make several mistakes in her free program? Osmond also gets good mistakes, but is only consistent in that she always has at least one error in her free skate. Kim never ended off the podium but she made a ton of mistakes -- that's just good results and relative lack of competition. To me, that's not consistency. Consistency is Anna Tarusina not falling at all in the season, or Evgenia Medvedeva, who did fall (mainly while injured, though) but who always has the mental strength to make up her errors enough so that it doesn't really matter. Consistency is also Satoko Miyahara, who does make mistakes, but rarely, and has the rest of it to back her up.

Agree.
Mai Mihara has been called inconsistent because she didn't medaled in GPs and nationals while she's the one who made the least mistakes in the whole season among japanese ladies. Some said she bombed her SP because she URed while others who fell and did pops has been called consistent because they medaled.The girl fell only twice in her two senior seasons

 

[yoloaxel]

Agree.
Mai Mihara has been called inconsistent because she didn't medaled in GPs and nationals while she's the one who made the least mistakes in the whole season among japanese ladies. Some said she bombed her SP because she URed while others who fell and did pops has been called consistent because they medaled.The girl fell only twice in her two senior seasons

This is true. At the same time, URs can be almost as damaging as falls, especially if they happen often

 

[chopinskate]

And of course, we are not even talking about the differences in judging (in terms of leniency) from generation to generation.

Good point. Maybe a question we might ask is if there is a real need to define a single definition of consistency, when there is difference in standards in each era.

Kim never ended off the podium but she made a ton of mistakes -- that's just good results and relative lack of competition.

I will disagree with this. I don't think Kim made a ton of mistakes in any single competition, but more to the point -- the depth of field in the 2007-10 era was probably more, or at least the same. Kim, Asada, Ando, Rochette, and Kostner (!!) were contenders for the podium. This is at the very least no different from now.

 

[Izabela]

Good point. Maybe a question we might ask is if there is a real need to define a single definition of consistency, when there is difference in standards in each era.

To be honest, we can only hold a finite definition of consistency if we are certain that the scoring system is actually applied fairly no matter what era we're talking about. And certainly under CoP where it deliberately breakdown elements under the theory of fairness. But oh well.

 

[theharleyquinn]

Discussion on consistency understandably has a strong technical slant when we're talking about programs being clean with fully rotated, landed jumps. If we're defining consistency by placements, then obviously PCS is more of a talking point. Does the quality of programs have a place in the conversation?

 

[chopinskate]

It ought to, then.

 

[theharleyquinn]

A few stray thoughts then. I'd argue that placements seem to matter at least some fraction more for consistency discussions about ladies figure skating versus men's. And I wouldn't necessarily be eager to call a technically consistent skater in either discipline the "most" consistent if their body of work is lacking artistically.