Who can defeat the Russian Women in 2021-22?

[yume]

Nobody in the history of skating, has had to face as much competition from their county women. Had all these skaters from the past had the Russian ladies as competition, they wouldn’t have had as long as a career either.

Kostner's fans disagree.

 

[alexocfp]

I think most athletes have some level of devastation or disappointment losing gold by a small margin; whether or not they display that emotion for public consumption is a different story but I don't think we can say Medvedeva was more devastated because she put her emotions out there for public consumption.

I don’t agree that everyone has some level of disappointment. If let’s say, Loena wins silver at the Olympics, she definitely won’t be, even if it’s by .01

It’s only disappointing if you don’t expect silver.

And I do believe that Medvedeva was more disappointed, because I believe that silver was one of the reasons she didn’t make a full comeback. You can tell it still haunts her.

Just look at her eyes when she talks about it.

 

[Jeanie19]

I don’t agree that everyone has some level of disappointment. If let’s say, Leona wins silver at the Olympics, she definitely won’t be, even if it’s by .01

It’s only disappointing if you don’t expect silver.

And I do believe that Medvedeva was more disappointed, because I believe that silver was one of the reasons she didn’t make a full comeback. You can tell it still haunts her.

Just look at her eyes when she talks about it.

Evgenia moved to Canada to continue her competitive career, that's dedication. One year ago, she had back surgery and was hospitalized with Covid, severe lung damage. She has not retired, she is just not competing this season. She has been extremely busy. She's not sitting home crying and eating chocolate all day.

 

[alexocfp]

Kostner's fans disagree.

That’s fine. But her medal is the only medal in Italy’s history.

She never had 6-8 skaters as good as her chasing her.

Plus her medal performance wouldn’t even get her an alternate spot on the Russian team today.

That bolero already looks 100 years old. And that’s fine, you had skaters that were great for their era, but it’s a new era now.

It’s not a popular opinion, but the Russian ladies have brought the sport into the 21st century and have innovated the last few years more than everyone else combined the last 50.

You can’t be slow anymore, you can’t be unathletic relying on simple jumps to win, you can’t be mentally weak, and you can’t just do it part time anymore.

The fitness and athleticism jump the Russian girls brought to the table is an enormous contribution.

 

[alexocfp]

Evgenia moved to Canada to continue her competitive career, that's dedication. One year ago, she had back surgery and was hospitalized with Covid, severe lung damage. She has not retired, she is just not competing this season. She has been extremely busy. She's not sitting home crying and eating chocolate all day.

I never said she wasn’t dedicated or she stopped living life. Life has to go on.

I’m saying a piece of her competitive fire went out that day. And I don’t blame her because I probably would have felt the same.

And you can’t say she has the same level of commitment to skating right now. Else she would be in the Eteri camp pushing herself instead of doing tv shows and commercials. Not that I blame her, she can make more money putting her body through less work.

And, in my opinion, it was a bad career move leaving Eteri. You don’t leave a spot at the greatest female skating school of all time.

And because she is Russian, cruelly, her gold medal prospects in the future have been sealed. Because of the Russian depth. Has she been German or Canadian or whatever, she would have continued as the top dog.

That was my original point. Being Russian means your window closes faster than any other country.

Anna Scherbakova had one or 2 years to herself, but by the 3rd year, the competition caught up. By year 4 it’s a total dogfight.

I mean for goodness sakes, a past world champion that has had the longevity can’t even get to the Olympics once for Russia. It’s unprecedented the competition she has to face.

Liza, if she skates in a past era, could easily have 3 Olympic golds and countless other world championships.

And not many people have mentioned this, but another reason it was worse from Medvedeva was because it was due to bad tactical decisions and not her skating.

You know your opponent is backloading her jumps. You need to adjust your strategy accordingly and alter your program immediately. You can’t take a chance keeping what you have.

See Baiul. She had the presence of mind to add a last second jump that made a difference.

 

[MUALover]

I never said she wasn’t dedicated or she stopped living life. Life has to go on.

I’m saying a piece of her competitive fire went out that day. And I don’t blame her because I probably would have felt the same.

And you can’t say she has the same level of commitment to skating right now. Else she would be in the Eteri camp pushing herself instead of doing tv shows and commercials. Not that I blame her, she can make more money putting her body through less work.

And, in my opinion, it was a bad career move leaving Eteri. You don’t leave a spot at the greatest female skating school of all time.

And because she is Russian, cruelly, her gold medal prospects in the future have been sealed. Because of the Russian depth. Has she been German or Canadian or whatever, she would have continued as the top dog.

That was my original point. Being Russian means your window closes faster than any other country.

Anna Scherbakova had one or 2 years to herself, but by the 3rd year, the competition caught up. By year 4 it’s a total dogfight.

I mean for goodness sakes, a past world champion that has had the longevity can’t even get to the Olympics once for Russia. It’s unprecedented the competition she has to face.

Liza, if she skates in a past era, could easily have 3 Olympic golds and countless other world championships.

And not many people have mentioned this, but another reason it was worse from Medvedeva was because it was due to bad tactical decisions and not her skating.

You know your opponent is backloading her jumps. You need to adjust your strategy accordingly and alter your program immediately. You can’t take a chance keeping what you have.

See Baiul. She had the presence of mind to add a last second jump that made a difference.

Didn't Eteri backload Alina's program? Wouldn't it the coach's fault?

 

[Lzbee]

I never said she wasn’t dedicated or she stopped living life. Life has to go on.

I’m saying a piece of her competitive fire went out that day. And I don’t blame her because I probably would have felt the same.

And you can’t say she has the same level of commitment to skating right now. Else she would be in the Eteri camp pushing herself instead of doing tv shows and commercials. Not that I blame her, she can make more money putting her body through less work.

I disagree. I'd argue that her competitive fire was burning even hotter with indignation after getting silver but her physical body was no longer able to take the strain. I'm sorry but I absolutely despise the "win at all costs" mentality and I think she's making the right choice not training through injury before she's permanently broken beyond repair.

And, in my opinion, it was a bad career move leaving Eteri. You don’t leave a spot at the greatest female skating school of all time.

Again, this choice was made because her body and mental health could no longer take the strain.

And not many people have mentioned this, but another reason it was worse from Medvedeva was because it was due to bad tactical decisions and not her skating.

Her foot was broken. She physically couldn't increase her tech that season. It's already impressive that she managed to pull through on her original content and skate clean at Olympics with a broken foot.

 

[alexocfp]

Didn't Eteri backload Alina's program? Wouldn't it the coach's fault?

Eteri got a 1-2 finish. She doesn’t care which order. So what can she be blamed for? Her tactics succeeded.

 

[yume]

That’s fine. But her medal is the only medal in Italy’s history.

She never had 6-8 skaters as good as her chasing her.

Plus her medal performance wouldn’t even get her an alternate spot on the Russian team today.

That bolero already looks 100 years old. And that’s fine, you had skaters that were great for their era, but it’s a new era now.

It’s not a popular opinion, but the Russian ladies have brought the sport into the 21st century and have innovated the last few years more than everyone else combined the last 50.

You can’t be slow anymore, you can’t be unathletic relying on simple jumps to win, you can’t be mentally weak, and you can’t just do it part time anymore.

The fitness and athleticism jump the Russian girls brought to the table is an enormous contribution.

Oh i don't disagree.
It's just funny to see some people throw shade at Russian ladies because they "lose" their jumps and retire at 18yo while using Kostner as an example of longevity and success. As if Kostner didn't have very very bad seasons or had to fight for spots with basically every skate like those girls.

I find Tuktamysheva's longevity more outstanding.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I find Tuktamysheva's longevity more oustanding.

It's very impressive that she's one of the top skaters in the world now after so many skaters have bumped her from the World and Olympic team assignments: Adelina, Julia, Evgenia, Anna P, Elena R, Maria S, Alina, Stanislava, Sofia, Alena, Anna S, and Sasha. And Liza has long outlasted most skaters on that list.

 

[alexocfp]

I disagree. I'd argue that her competitive fire was burning even hotter with indignation after getting silver but her physical body was no longer able to take the strain. I'm sorry but I absolutely despise the "win at all costs" mentality and I think she's making the right choice not training through injury before she's permanently broken beyond repair.


Again, this choice was made because her body and mental health could no longer take the strain.

Her foot was broken. She physically couldn't increase her tech that season. It's already impressive that she managed to pull through on her original content and skate clean at Olympics with a broken foot.

If you go back to my old posts, you will see that once you take the ice, all injury excuses go out the window. I’ve been consistent with this. See my posts re Trusova and jet lag when she had a bad skate in the USA the week after Russian test skates. Once you skate, excuses end. That how I see it.

Zagitova is the Olympic champion and there is zero controversy about the result.

Unfortunately in Russian skating, taking off is the same as going backwards, like it or not.

Even with a bad back or whatever, you can still be in Eteri’s camp 10 hours a day working on other things. And she isn’t too hurt to do skating shows, so it’s not like she is crippled. Again, it’s her life and she wants to make money now. Not faulting her in the least. I would take a job with less work for more money too. Haha

And we can agree to disagree. The win at all costs is one of the reasons the Russian ladies are lapping the field.

I’m on record lionizing Anna for her antics at Russian nationals. My kind of athlete!

 

[alexocfp]

Oh i don't disagree.
It's just funny to see some people throw shade at Russian ladies because they "lose" their jumps and retire at 18yo while using Kostner as an example of longevity and success. As if Kostner didn't have very very bad seasons or had to fight for spots with basically every skate like those girls.

I find Tuktamysheva's longevity more outstanding.

Me too.

Her opposition in Russia right now, is Anna, Trusova, Maia, Kamila, Daria, and that’s not counting juniors coming out of the woodwork. That’s after doing it for a decade facing athletes 5,6,8 years younger who are better athletes than her.

Koster left and was replaced by nobody.

It’s easy to have bad seasons when you are the only skater in your country of bite. Grm for instance can skate until she is 50. Haha

 

[alexocfp]

Thank you all for letting me write my ode to Russian ladies figure skating the last few days. Haha

And no, I’m not related to Eteri. And no, I’m not Russian. Just a regular sports fan. Haha

 

[Lzbee]

If you go back to my old posts, you will see that once you take the ice, all injury excuses go out the window. I’ve been consistent with this. See my posts re Trusova and jet lag when she had a bad skate in the USA the week after Russian test skates. Once you skate, excuses end. That how I see it.

Zagitova is the Olympic champion and there is zero controversy about the result.

Unfortunately in Russian skating, taking off is the same as going backwards, like it or not.

Even with a bad back or whatever, you can still be in Eteri’s camp 10 hours a day working on other things. And she isn’t too hurt to do skating shows, so it’s not like she is crippled. Again, it’s her life and she wants to make money now. Not faulting her in the least. I would take a job with less work for more money too. Haha

And we can agree to disagree. The win at all costs is one of the reasons the Russian ladies are lapping the field.

I’m on record lionizing Anna for her antics at Russian nationals. My kind of athlete!

I know you don't care about injury or health.

Injuries aren't excuses, they're reasons.

This kind of mentality is what's normalised abuse in so many sports. I won't say any more because it makes me very angry.

 

[alexocfp]

I know you don't care about injury or health.

Injuries aren't excuses, they're reasons.

This kind of mentality is what's normalised abuse in so many sports. I won't say any more because it makes me very angry.

Once you take the ice, reasons don’t matter.

Skating hurt and abuse are 2 different things. Not wanting to quit is not abuse.

It’s not the same thing. Anna herself made that decision against her coaches and parents wishes. Let’s tell the story right. Anna wanted to win a medal that badly. I applaud that attitude! Having a winner mentality is not abuse, it’s high level sport.

If they wanted this to be non competitive, they wouldn’t keep score or award medals or have placements. Some people value these scores and placements more than others. And that’s good, reward those that do.

And I as a fan am not ashamed to admit that I value them too.

Fierce competition is not abuse. You either leave everything on the ice, or encounter others that will gladly do it and take your position.

Being 15 and fearless is not abuse. I was fearless at that age too.

People focus on ages too much. An elite 15 year old athlete is not a typical 15 year old. There are different standards for top level athletes. Goes for any sport. They aren’t kids in the kids sense of the word. They are different than normal teens and adults for that matter.

They are more adult than kid at that point. Anna mentally is around 50. Haha

 

[el henry]

Skating through injury is stupid, ridiculous and dangerous,

It no more signifies a "brave" athlete than jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge shows bravery.

The reason we have adults make those decisions is that children, even older, accomplished children, are not considered responsible enough to make them. Precisely because they might think jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge is "bravery". And that shiny gold somehow validates injuring oneself.

Yeah, right....

ETA: If an adult has not matured enough to realize the silliness of equating a race for shiny gold with lifelong good health, then that's their issue. There are some Super Bowl winners with CTE who would like to talk with them.
At least with children we try to do the right thing, even if it doesn't always succeed.

 

[alexocfp]

Skating through injury is stupid, ridiculous and dangerous,

It no more signifies a "brave" athlete than jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge shows bravery.

The reason we have adults make those decisions is that children, even older, accomplished children, are not considered responsible enough to make them. Precisely because they might think jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge is "bravery". And that shiny gold somehow validates injuring oneself.

Yeah, right....

I think Anna is more responsible than 90% of the people I know. Yes I have low standards. Haha

It’s stupid to jump off the Brooklyn bridge because the risks outweigh the rewards.

If jumping off the bridge had cash prizes and notoriety attached to it and it was a competitive sport, then yes, let’s see who the brave ones are. Spoiler: it’s not me. Haha

Age is just a number. 16 means one thing in one country and another thing in the next. Standards aren’t the same. 16 year olds are less coddled in other non western nations.

I am of Greek descent. A 16 year old there has much more life experience than a 16 year old American. At 18 some nations have mandatory military experience.

A 16 year old Russian skater is not a typical wester delicate flower. We never make differences and treat everyone everywhere as one size fits all.

 

[el henry]

I think Anna is more responsible than 90% of the people I know. Yes I have low standards. Haha

It’s stupid to jump off the Brooklyn bridge because the risks outweigh the rewards.

If jumping off the bridge had cash prizes and notoriety attached to it and it was a competitive sport, then yes, let’s see who the brave ones are. Spoiler: it’s not me. Haha

It doesn't matter how "responsible" a child is, they are a child. And adults, at least responsible adults, should be making the decisions.

Luckily the days of "ooh, I'm strong", "ooh, look at me, I skate through pain", "ooh, how brave" are falling by the wayside as the old fashioned and discredited notions they are.

Shiny gold will never, ever, ever make up for lifelong health. I don't expect a 15 year old to know that. I expect responsible adults to know that.

And I have no opinion on Anna, since I don't know if she is injured and I don't know her circumstances. I am speaking generally.

 

[alexocfp]

It doesn't matter how "responsible" a child is, they are a child. And adults, at least responsible adults, should be making the decisions.

Luckily the days of "ooh, I'm strong", "ooh, look at me, I skate through pain", "ooh, how brave" are falling by the wayside as the old fashioned and discredited notions they are.

Shiny gold will never, ever, ever make up for lifelong health. I don't expect a 15 year old to know that. I expect responsible adults to know that.

And I have no opinion on Anna, since I don't know if she is injured and I don't know her circumstances. I am speaking generally.

Some people value a medal more than anything else. I’m not going to be the one to castigate their belief system. People everywhere value things more than other things. Who am I to say they are wrong to think like that?

Age is just a number. 16 means one thing in one country and another thing in the next. Standards aren’t the same. 16 year olds are less coddled in other non western nations.

I am of Greek descent. A 16 year old there has much more life experience than a 16 year old American. At 18 some nations have mandatory military experience.

A 16 year old Russian skater is not a typical wester delicate flower. We never make differences and treat everyone everywhere as one size fits all.

And why, why is it gospel that someone older knows what’s better for someone younger and not themselves living their life?

I don’t know Anna’s life better and respect her decisions because she has a maturity beyond her years. Just like nobody knows your life better than you.

I listened to next to nobody when I was 15 and I’m glad. I stupidly risked my life countless times for less fame and fortune and I am glad I did.

And I disagree. Had I been a top athlete making millions, I would happily risk my life for a gold. I’ve risked my life for a lot less.

 

[MUALover]

Eteri got a 1-2 finish. She doesn’t care which order. So what can she be blamed for? Her tactics succeeded.

Are you saying Eugenie should have backloaded her program to win gold? Eteri wouldn't have let her. That is the thing with having Eteri as a coach - she doesn't care who wins. If I were Evgenia, I would have made a big stink and too demanded a backloaded choreography.