Worlds: Ladies FS

[melgirl25]

It does suck she didn't win or medal. She is a great skater and well balanced. I love her choreography too vs the works of Daniil for Alina. Maybe these trips to Colorado so often were too much. Too much hype. I think this Challenge Cup back fired on her. She should have taken it easy and I think she still would have gotten an amazing score, maybe landed that axel being in the 2nd to last group.

 

[[email protected]]

Next year will be interesting. Even not talking about the new generation of Russian skaters coming of age we have some big questions:

1. What will Alina do?
2. Can Zhenya build on WC momentum? I was doom and gloom about her prospects just a month ago. She showed once again what a fierce fighter she is. And she "earned" the right to be one of the key team contenders in the next season. But the strong will alone might not be enough - long-awaited improvements should follow.
3. What is Rika's team strategy with respect to big jumps? Looking in the past we are all wise: "if she only had done 2A in the short she would have been likely second coming to the free program. Then even with a fall and other things being equal she would have got at least silver". This strategy would, indeed, make sense because unlike Tursynbaeva she did not have to risk big time. Yes, with 3 triple axels she is invincible. But she has never landed them so far... So what are they going to do: keep 3 triple axels and also add a quad with the risk of big-time meltdowns or play it safer?
4. Does Kaori plan to beef up her content? Without it her big podium chances will be questionable.
5. Will Elizabeth Tursynbaeva add a quad combo to her single quad? Her 3A prospects do not look promising.
6. Finally, will Liza Tuktamysheva be able to play "Rika's game" with 3 triple axels and where will it bring her? We shall get first ideas at WTT. There were rumours that she might go for 2 triple axels in the free program.

 

[SNAKSuyun]

Next year will be interesting. Even not talking about the new generation of Russian skaters coming of age we have some big questions:

1. What will Alina do?
2. Can Zhenya build on WC momentum? I was doom and gloom about her prospects just a month ago. She showed once again what a fierce fighter she is. And she "earned" the right to be one of the key team contenders in the next season. But the strong will alone might not be enough - long-awaited improvements should follow.
3. What is Rika's team strategy with respect to big jumps? Looking in the past we are all wise: "if she only had done 2A in the short she would have been likely second coming to the free program. Then even with a fall and other things being equal she would have got at least silver". This strategy would, indeed, make sense because unlike Tursynbaeva she did not have to risk big time. Yes, with 3 triple axels she is invincible. But she has never landed them so far... So what are they going to do: keep 3 triple axels and also add a quad with the risk of big-time meltdowns or play it safer?
4. Does Kaori plan to beef up her content? Without it her big podium chances will be questionable.
5. Will Elizabeth Tursynbaeva add a quad combo to her single quad? Her 3A prospects do not look promising.
6. Finally, will Liza Tuktamysheva be able to play "Rika's game" with 3 triple axels and where will it bring her? We shall get first ideas at WTT. There were rumours that she might go for 2 triple axels in the free program.

1. Keep up her tech, improve on it (quads??? GOE???) if she can. Her TES is still formidable and her PCS is top tier, so she's going to be a medal favorite as long as she keeps up her current level of tech, and a gold favorite as long as Anna/Elisaset/Rika don't have clean seasons with their full TES content. I don't think Sasha can catch her unless she keeps her quads AND they start awarding her ridiculous PCS (which, true, might happen), and I don't think Alena can catch her if both are clean unless Alena adds some more tech.
2. I don't think Evgenia's fate is in her own hands now, so to speak. For next year, I can think of at least 4 Russian skaters who I think are better than her in both tech and performance in Russia alone (and I'm not exactly known as a Russian fan). Of course, if Evgenia's tech holds AND they keep Evgenia's PCS high while hammering down the new seniors, Evgenia may still have a chance, but I don't want to see that happen, and I think the new seniors have more potential than her at this point.
3. It depends on where Rika wants to be. If she just wants to be a medals contender/favorite, sure, she can water down her content. But I think Rika wants to be a champion, so she will go for the 3As as long as she continues to be decently confident in her ability to do them.
4. Kaori did mention wanting to do at least a 3A (?) at some point AFAIK, so I think she definitely wants to beef up. Whether she'll be able to is a different matter. If she stays consistent she can be another peripheral threat like Kaetlyn, BUT she can also have a season like Wakaba's current season, and the field in Japan is super deep so who knows. I think she'll be a joy to watch and place decently well regardless though, as long as she keeps her current content.
5. Considering this is the first time Elisabet landed her 4S, I have a feeling the quad combo will take a little bit of time. Or maybe not. She's training with Eteri after all. But considering even Sasha and Anna fell on their quads a lot and Rika/Alina aren't exactly the most consistent skaters around, I feel like that's a lot of risk that may not be worth taking.
6. We'll see at WTT, I guess? I think even if Liza starts doing 3 3As, though, she still won't be able to catch up to Rika due to Rika's superior PCS (which also still has room to grow). Also, Liza still has to worry about domestic competition for Russia. Who knows if we'll still even see Liza next year? :sad46:

 

[silveruskate]

What are you even talking about???
Wrong/unclear edges have to be taken into account when assigning GOE.


REDUCTIONS FOR ERRORS
JUMP ELEMENTS

Wrong edge take off F/Lz (sign “e”) -3 to -4
Unclear edge take off F/Lz (sign “!”) -1 to -3
Unclear edge take off F/Lz (no sign) -1


So if the judges thought Medvedeva's Lutz was worth +4(which is already bonkers), if there was an "e" call, that GOE would've been +1 or 0 and the base value would've been 4.43 instead of 5.90.
That's what I'm talking about when I say that the difference between 3rd and 4th place was an uncalled 3Lutz. Rika wuzrobed.

If you weren't so melodramatic you would know. My comment there wasn't Zhenya specific and I think you should consider a different reading of the text you quoted. What I was doing was stating that as long as it is deemed to be the correct edge, there is no precedent in the rules from what I can see that says a deeper correct edge = higher GOE compared to a shallower correct edge. When it comes to making the calls you can imagine the intelligent thing for a judge to do is to score it as though the edge is correct unless obvious for any jump because you know that you'll have a chance to re-grade it if the technical caller says e or ! and deepness of a correct edge doesn't impact GOE. The technical caller was lenient for all Lutzes

Frankly, if Zhenya's Lutz was correct edge then I don't see any reason why it couldn't be +4 because it wasn't a bad jump and the entry is beautiful. From my view I think the edge was unclear. I might be biased but I thought the skate was slightly bent inwards before the moment of jumping so it could be outside, but I personally would have gone for unclear with no !. I don't know if this is how it works but if an unclear edge is given without ! but as a result the judges can't change their GOE, then she would receive high GOE the judges gave when they assumed her jump edge was correct. The technical judge can always say that they have a view no one else has which is true.

Aside from that I thought Rika's 3A fall in the FS was UR and also her 2T in her 3Lz-2T-2Lo was definitely UR as well, neither called. Zhenya's 3S-3Lo should have been called UR, but I think her 3F-3T in the SP was harsh after looking again. You could say Rika deserved higher PCS if you wanted. I think in general there are cases for both sides myself and the chips fell like they did favouring Zhenya.

 

[silveruskate]

This is a fallacy. If a spin deserves to be scored lower, then it deserves to be scored lower. Just because an element didn't get a 5, that doesn't mean it wasn't overscored. I found all of her spins at this competition to have lackluster positions for the most part and not great speed. It's questionable if she even deserved level credit for that semi-upright position where she just hunches forward and puts one arm behind her back - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajm5f9-BKjA&t=2m55s. That kind of position is something I could do in my first year ever as a skater, with no real spin training at the time. It's not really a "difficult variation", she either needs to twist her body core more, or raise the free leg higher, or put both arms behind her back, for this to be considered difficult enough for a level credit.

Brian Orser and TCC had no reservations about the spin being included so forgive me for taking their word on this. Your fallacy is describing a perfect spin, and then saying she should deserve lower than 2 or even negative? because it isn't like that.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I never said she deserved negative GOE for a spin and nothing I said is a fallacy. If a "perfect" spin deserves +5 GOE, then her spins indeed only deserve +1 to me, as that's how much lower the quality is that she's displaying. Most of her positions can be better, her speed can be much better, and her centering here in some instances can be better. If you look at all of those "bullet point" details, then a +1 GOE is indeed accurate for what she's doing, even according to the exact current GOE guidelines in the rulebook.

As for the level call, a tech panel is not infallible (and have often been shown to be wrong), and if you look at the actual rules for what constitutes a difficult variation in the rulebook, this position does not meet the requirement. The rules say "A difficult spin variation is a movement of the body, leg, arm, hand or head which requires physical strength or flexibility and has an effect on the balance of the main body core." Medvedeva's position does not display flexibility, strength, or a significant change in balance point from basic semi-upright position.

After already conceding that the technical panel was what it was, to isolate one non-call as the sole reason for an outcome that you do not favor is quite simplistic.

Again - I wish the technical panel did its job. But selective outrage is :noshake:

That poster did not have "selective outrage", though. Other skaters being called is irrelevant to the battle between Kihira and Medvedeva for those placements. What fuels this particularly issue, also, is that Medvedeva has ALWAYS had a Lutz edge issue. It's something which should always be known and be called by tech panels (until the day she does finally do a good enough edge on the jump). Instead, Medvedeva's Lutz has constantly been overlooked by tech panels over the years. It's a recurring problem that has yet again inflated her score and has messed up what the competition results should have been.

Next year will be interesting. Even not talking about the new generation of Russian skaters coming of age we have some big questions:

It's not really possible to answer these questions without knowing what the skaters will actually be capable of. We don't know what jumps people will be able to gain.

However, if the overall level of skating/artistry does not improve, then I don't think 3Axel or Quad should be required yet (if things are actually judged correctly). An amazing program with just "normal" Triples deserves to beat the programs we are currently seeing that have harder jumps. Also, very importantly, a lot of these so-called "Quads" from the Ladies are actually cheated and need to be getting called underrotated. The overall GOE's need to be lower too, as skaters are getting too many points for what they are actually putting out there on the ice.

If the horrendous judging trends and types of programs people are doing continue, then obviously everyone will at least try to train harder jumps, since there won't be any other way to earn enough of a scoring differential.

 

[rikaquegira]

Sorry, but just a couple of posts ago, you were in fact, blaming Evgenia's lutz for Rika's results.




After already conceding that the technical panel was what it was, to isolate one non-call as the sole reason for an outcome that you do not favor is quite simplistic.

Again - I wish the technical panel did its job. But selective outrage is :noshake:

I only went back to that topic because people here were implying or stating that Rika wasn’t on the podium simply because she didn’t skate clean and completely ignoring the fact that the technical panel’s incompetence was what cost Rika her medal. My posts were in answer to that. And again, if I were to rant about every single uncalled edge or underotation and oh the pcs overscore... I would be writing for hours on end.
Anyway, I’ve already expressed my feelings towards this whole event and its unfair judging. People will understand what they want to understand. I’m done. It was good discussing this competition with y’all. I hope we can see better judging in the next and last competition of this season WTT(although WTT is known exactly for the opposite... but who knows). [emoji120]

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I never said she deserved negative GOE for a spin and nothing I said is a fallacy. If a "perfect" spin deserves +5 GOE, then her spins indeed only deserve +1 to me, as that's how much lower the quality is that she's displaying. Most of her positions can be better, her speed can be much better, and her centering here in some instances can be better. If you look at all of those "bullet point" details, then a +1 GOE is indeed accurate for what she's doing, even according to the exact current GOE guidelines in the rulebook.

As for the level call, a tech panel is not infallible (and have often been shown to be wrong), and if you look at the actual rules for what constitutes a difficult variation in the rulebook, this position does not meet the requirement. The rules say "A difficult spin variation is a movement of the body, leg, arm, hand or head which requires physical strength or flexibility and has an effect on the balance of the main body core." Medvedeva's position does not display flexibility, strength, or a significant change in balance point from basic semi-upright position.



That poster did not have "selective outrage", though. Other skaters being called is irrelevant to the battle between Kihira and Medvedeva for those placements. What fuels this particularly issue, also, is that Medvedeva has ALWAYS had a Lutz edge issue. It's something which should always be known and be called by tech panels (until the day she does finally do a good enough edge on the jump). Instead, Medvedeva's Lutz has constantly been overlooked by tech panels over the years. It's a recurring problem that has yet again inflated her score and has messed up what the competition results should have been.



It's not really possible to answer these questions without knowing what the skaters will actually be capable of. We don't know what jumps people will be able to gain.

However, if the overall level of skating/artistry does not improve, then I don't think 3Axel or Quad should be required yet (if things are actually judged correctly). An amazing program with just "normal" Triples deserves to beat the programs we are currently seeing that have harder jumps. Also, very importantly, a lot of these so-called "Quads" from the Ladies are actually cheated and need to be getting called underrotated. The overall GOE's need to be lower too, as skaters are getting too many points for what they are actually putting out there on the ice.

If the horrendous judging trends and types of programs people are doing continue, then obviously everyone will at least try to train harder jumps, since there won't be any other way to earn enough of a scoring differential.

I agree completely with you. This cheating should stop. I used to like Evgenia when I did not know that she was actually pre-rotating her jumps...
I was shocked as well when one of the ESPN commentators said during Satoko's FS that "her pre-rotation does not matter".

 

[tral]

I found the ladies' event relatively fun. Boring programs overall, but the ladies did their best, and from a competitive stand point it was good. I think Medvedeva was incorrectly placed in the top four, as at the very least she wasn't handed a edge warning on her faulty lutz. Sakamoto also escaped an edge call, and Medvedeva perhaps had a more assured performance, but I'd still have Zagitova, Tursynbayeva, Kihira, and Sakamoto in the top four, in some order.

Congrats to Zagitova on getting all her senior gold medals!

PS: love your brand of discussion

 

[oatmella]

It will take a lot for Evgenia to maintain her position, including luck. No wonder she has to work on 4S - but even one type of quad can take quite a long time to stabilize.

I think Rika will be adding 4S season, and Kaori’s coach said she will be doing 3A.

Is Alina going to be attempting quads as well?

 

[amonemae]

I watched World's live primarily for the ladies and all I can say is the scoring and the TP at this event was extremely whack. But the good things, there were so many beautiful performances, not just from the final flight of ladies! I found Yi Christy Leung, Dasa GRM and Hongyi Chen quite promising and I am very excited about them for next season.

I was also very proud of Gabby and Lilbet for all that they did for themselves and their country. It was very emotional watching them both because I was remembering Gabby's struggles and for Lilbet, I was reminded of Denis.

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but I think I don't quite mind the scoring if it were the same across the board (all the ladies were being scored the same way, which they aren't), but it didn't happen here. I was seated with a group of Japanese ladies (I'm a foreigner) and we had some disappointed muttering and discussion particularly for the SP scores, not just for the Japanese skaters, also for the small fed skaters who will never get anything it seems.

I enjoy watching FS but I am seeing so much more focus on tech content than ever before and it's saddening to me because the main draw for me will always be programs that can do a good balance of both. Now it seems you just need to have high BV, all the transitions (they don't even have to be good) and your PCS just soars. I worry that upcoming juinors and novices see this and just go that route, and I can't even say I'd blame them for it because that's what the judges reward.

There's already been a lot of excellent discussion but I just wanted to share because I really loved watching live, even though the results I wanted for my faves didn't happen.

 

[yume]

Is Alina going to be attempting quads as well?

She should. 4F.

 

[Scott512]

Alina Zagitova has won everything as a Junior and senior at the age of 16. But before she won everything as a Junior and senior she had a broken arm and a broken leg. This was before she joined eteri. I am sure she has those devastating injuries in the back of her mind and does not want them again especially since she's won everything all the major titles as a Junior and senior at the age of 16. What Alina has achieved her first two years by the age of 16 is mind-boggling. I can't see ever being repeated again by 16. Unless she is fully confident she can learn a triple Axel or a quad she should not even try them. Why risk injury when you won everything at the tender age of 16? It's not like she loses everything if and when others (3a Rika etc.) pass her by in the next year or two. When that happens Alina will have a big decision to make about trying a triple axel or quad for real. Until then she should sit back and enjoy what she's done in her career it is historic and develop the artistic parts of her skating. The next year or two will be big in her development as an artist whether she tries a triple Axel or quad or not.

I also don't understand why some people want Zagatova or Medvedeva to retire or step aside. What are they going to do become neurosurgeons? They know one thing and that's figure skating at the highest level.

 

[jenaj]

Not sure if this point has been made, but Rika was trying to win gold when she went for 2 3As in her long program. She could easily have just done one and a double and pretty much have been guaranteed a medal. I do think either she was underscored or Evgenia was overscored in PCS. At a minimum, their scores should have been the same, putting Rika on the podium—silver, I think, if she got a 72.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Not sure if this point has been made, but Rika was trying to win gold when she went for 2 3As in her long program. She could easily have just done one and a double and pretty much have been guaranteed a medal. I do think either she was underscored or Evgenia was overscored in PCS. At a minimum, their scores should have been the same, putting Rika on the podium—silver, I think, if she got a 72.

Hindsight is a bit 20-20... had Sakamoto not singled the flip and had Tursynbaeva done her 2A+3T, Kihira would have needed more than a 2A in her FS to replace the 3A(fall). It's easy to put out what Kihira could have done better to medal, but then we'd also have to acknowledge that those who placed above her still weren't at their best.

 

[jenaj]

Hindsight is a bit 20-20... had Sakamoto not singled the flip and had Tursynbaeva done her 2A+3T, Kihira would have needed more than a 2A in her FS to replace the 3A(fall). It's easy to put out what Kihira could have done better to medal, but then we'd also have to acknowledge that those who placed above her still weren't at their best.

But Sakamoto did single her flip and Lilbet didn't do her 2A-3T. So what I said stands. (And Lilbet was at her best.)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

But Sakamoto did single her flip and Lilbet didn't do her 2A-3T. So what I said stands. (And Lilbet was at her best.)

Sure. But who knows - Kihira getting a higher score and skating prior to Kaori/Elizabet could have caused a different dynamic whereby Kaori/Elizabet/Medvedeva stayed more focussed to ensure they hit all their content and stayed ahead.

 

[Figure 8's]

Sure. But who knows - Kihira getting a higher score and skating prior to Kaori/Elizabet could have caused a different dynamic whereby Kaori/Elizabet/Medvedeva stayed more focussed to ensure they hit all their content and stayed ahead.

Seems to me this is a wouda, couda, shoulda. Khihira is a beautiful skater but you aren't going to win gold falling on your big point jumps. The 3 medalist did not fall and were mostly clean. Every one had their chance to skate well. The fact is some did and some didn't.

 

[Figure 8's]

Hmm! Sounds to me like some of you think Medevdeva should not have medaled because she was not perfect. Well she did stay on her feet. I have never been a fan of her style of skating, think it is kind of boring, but after all her struggles threw the season to be able to skate as well as she did is pretty amazing. Why is it so necessary for some of you to pick apart another Skater because your favorite did not win. And saying that Kihira should be put ahead of every one because she is the better skater is like saying Alina should win over everyone because she is Olympic Champ.

 

[Scott512]

Hmm! Sounds to me like some of you think Medevdeva should not have medaled because she was not perfect. Well she did stay on her feet. I have never been a fan of her style of skating, think it is kind of boring, but after all her struggles threw the season to be able to skate as well as she did is pretty amazing. Why is it so necessary for some of you to pick apart another Skater because your favorite did not win. And saying that Kihira should be put ahead of every one because she is the better skater is like saying Alina should win over everyone because she is Olympic Champ.

Agreed. Well said.