Yuzuru Hanyu, Greatest Or Not The Greatest?

[tokoyami]

anyway patrick definitely helped with the quad revolution but to call him THE greatest over yuzuru is hilarious that's all im gonna say

i just would never be caught calling someone who couldn't land a decent 3a in the later part of his career consistently the GOAT of men's figure skating idk bout u

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Lol @ this thread. It's gonna be that kind of summer eh.

Regarding the whole "popular = GOAT", supporting arguments for GOAT should be centred more around the skating instead of the fandom surrounding a skater. Unless you want GOAT to be synonymous with Most Popular of All Time it should hold no bearing (stating the obvious... social media wasn't particularly prominent prior to 2006ish, and internet grows practically exponentially each year). I suppose Dick Button isn't an option for the GOAT because he doesn't have the same number of daily tweets extolling him, or views on YouTube videos of him, and hasn't sold hordes of Pooh
plushies for Disney?! :sarcasm: You might as well argue that PSY was once the greatest musician of all time after clearing 1 billion YouTube views - and all the World records associated with him.

Like come on, let's focus on the actual skating here. It's wonderful that Hanyu has such an extensive, intensely dedicated fandom and inspires so many, but (as others have alluded to) it's not exactly fair to use social following as a barometer to compare him to guys who were around before social media exploded or even the popularity of skating in Japan exploded (see: Takahashi). If Hanyu had been around in the 2000s, the impact he would have had on the world of skating would still be extraordinary - but he'd have a marginal social following to fuel his popularity. So IMO the whole YouTube hits/social following/Poohs as a point of comparison in the GOAT discussion is negligible.

In terms of actual skating and programs, and hardware, there is a strong argument to be made for Hanyu being GOAT all things considered, but there are aspects of his skating that others have him beat on. Button has him beat on World/Olympic titles, Chan has him beat on skating skills, Chen has him beat on technical difficulty, Brown has him beat on spins (and choreography, IMO), etc.

I mean, he just got absolutely dominated by Chen at Worlds, even delivering one of his strongest free skates ever. He has only ever landed the hardest jumping pass (a quad lutz) once in competition, while other skaters routinely land 4Z and 4F too. That's not to say he hasn't done amazing elements like the 4T+3A or 4T+Eu+3S or back counter into the 3A or the first 4L.

I don't think his lack of a 4CC title (the OP obviously made in jest) precludes Hanyu from being the GOAT. But if he wins 4CC next year - against a strong field with Chen/Uno/Jin/Zhou - I think that would add to his GOAT stock and silence a couple of those who trivialize him for failing to win it all these years. There still is the crowd of folks who trivialize skaters who have won 4CC by labelling that competition as cursed or minor compared to the GPF, for example. (Of course if Hanyu had 5 4CC titles and all GPF silvers I'm betting they would all flip to saying 4CC was more important). Anyway, 4CC and GPF are important competitions but IMO are totally secondary compared to Worlds.

Looking at his World and Olympic titles - which is the primary argument people make for his GOAT bid. For Worlds he has 2 titles, the first of which he arguably was gifted thanks to his SP PCS to edge out Machida by 0.33 points, and the second which he defeated Uno by just 2.28 points). As far as Olympics those titles were absolutely earned, and it is a remarkable achievement to have 2 Olympic golds -- but Sochi was a case of the best of the worst, and PC was flawed too and while he won by 11 points, he was outscored by 9 points in the FS. In every case of his 4 major titles, he never won both segments.

2018 Olympics was still a definitive win (overall SP+LP), but other than that it's been rather close competitions for someone that is a GOAT candidate. The GOAT status would arguably be better supported had he smoked the entire competition in both segments at a Worlds/Olympic event - leaving no doubt of his superiority, a la Plushenko in Turin 2006 with 27.12 over Lambiel; Chan in 2011 Worlds with 22.57 over Kozuka, or Chen in his 2 World title blowout wins -- 27.63 points over Uno in 2018 and 22.45 over Hanyu in 2019.

Hanyu is one of the finest competitors to ever hit the ice and he is without a doubt one of the greatest of all time. He isn't the greatest of all time in each aspect of figure skating but is still the total package and worthy of consideration for the GOAT recognition. I don't get why some are taking it almost personally that not everyone agrees with him being the GOAT, but I suppose that's par for the course with these things.

He does undoubtedly get the Garnerer Of All Toy-Poohs award though. That's got to count for something, right?

 

[yume]

Imo winning with a slight margin against someone who did his best or nearly his best in both programs has more value than winning by 30 points because the one behind you bombed.
If someone does his best and you still beat him, it's that you are better.
It's unfortunate that he couldn't win both segments for his worlds and oly titles except Sochi. He only likes to do that at GPF apparently (3 times) like in 2015 when he "smoked" his competitors.
I hope he will win 4CC and another worlds titles, by smoking the competition preferably. So he will meet those GOAT bullet criteria. Even if i bet we will see comments like "he only won by that margin because x skater bombed. so it isn't remarkable". Because it's him.

 

[TallyT]

Hey, our thread refuting that Yuzu isn't a GOAT is shorter than the one claiming Alina is!!!

Imo winning with a slight margin against someone who did his best or nearly his best in both programs has more value than winning by 30 points because the one behind you bombed.

... and was injured in the bargain.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I have to disagree here. Chan came on the scene as the master of blade to ice skills. He was so far ahead of everyone else in this regard that, indeed, he could have coasted and still won a lot of stuff.

Instead, realizing that he had to go forward and not back, he undertook to add quads to his program. Not a trivial decision for the time.

With these two parts of his skating arsenal in hand, Patrtick finally tackled the arduous task of elevating the artistic side.

Obviously by the very end of his career he began to fall off the pace that he had established at the beginning and middle -- who doesn't? Still, even at his last hurrah he was able to reach down deep and help his national team win the Olympic team gold medal.

Patrick chan did not change his style once during his skating. Patrick chan started removing quads towards end of his career. He had a huge chance in 2018 when his quad flip was going so well in training, but instead he switched to a dance coach rather than training technical to try and compete with everybody else. He did not push himself to the limit, and nobody could claim he did. In fact, he was bitchy and whiny about everybody else having quads.

 

[Ophelia]

In terms of actual skating and programs, and hardware, there is a strong argument to be made for Hanyu being GOAT all things considered, but there are aspects of his skating that others have him beat on. Button has him beat on World/Olympic titles, Chan has him beat on skating skills, Chen has him beat on technical difficulty, Brown has him beat on spins (and choreography, IMO), etc.

I don't think his lack of a 4CC title (the OP obviously made in jest) precludes Hanyu from being the GOAT. But if he wins 4CC next year - against a strong field with Chen/Uno/Jin/Zhou - I think that would add to his GOAT stock and silence a couple of those who trivialize him for failing to win it all these years. There still is the crowd of folks who trivialize skaters who have won 4CC by labelling that competition as cursed or minor compared to the GPF, for example. (Of course if Hanyu had 5 4CC titles and all GPF silvers I'm betting they would all flip to saying 4CC was more important). Anyway, 4CC and GPF are important competitions but IMO are totally secondary compared to Worlds.

I'm perfectly fine with people not considering Hanyu GOAT, but these 2 arguments don't hold. Did qualifications for GOAT include being the absolute best at everything? If that case, no skater will check off all the boxes. Every skater will be beat by another skater on some dimension.

I also don't get how some people have an axe to grind with Hanyu lacking a 4CC title when their faves don't even have one OGM title for crying out loud.

 

[Mathman]

Patrick chan did not change his style once during his skating.

https://www.google.com (Lori Nichol choreography)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbIenJgVtcQ (David Wlson choreography)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PeOafGAw04 (Jeff Buttle choreography)

I also don't get how some people have an axe to grind with Hanyu lacking a 4CC title...

No one has an axe to grind about Four Continents. There were a cuple of lame tongue-in-cheek jokes about it, like the OP, but that's all.

 

[ankifeather]

Like come on, let's focus on the actual skating here. It's wonderful that Hanyu has such an extensive, intensely dedicated fandom and inspires so many, but (as others have alluded to) it's not exactly fair to use social following as a barometer to compare him to guys who were around before social media exploded or even the popularity of skating in Japan exploded (see: Takahashi). If Hanyu had been around in the 2000s, the impact he would have had on the world of skating would still be extraordinary - but he'd have a marginal social following to fuel his popularity. So IMO the whole YouTube hits/social following/Poohs as a point of comparison in the GOAT discussion is negligible.

I agree GOAT doesn't equal popularity, but the popularity point was brought up in response to opinions his programs are not moving (which they are entirely entitled to such opinion), that whilst Yuzu can't touch everyone, there are a good amount of people who are. Your note above is also why I said in an earlier post that compared to online clicks and views, the amount of people that turn up to his competitions and ice shows is a better indicator, since these cost money and effort to attend, so people attending are more likely to be there for his skating than just for social following or hype. The Poohs are just to demonstrate how many were there for him in particular.

2018 Olympics was still a definitive win (overall SP+LP), but other than that it's been rather close competitions for someone that is a GOAT candidate. The GOAT status would arguably be better supported had he smoked the entire competition in both segments at a Worlds/Olympic event - leaving no doubt of his superiority, a la Plushenko in Turin 2006 with 27.12 over Lambiel; Chan in 2011 Worlds with 22.57 over Kozuka, or Chen in his 2 World title blowout wins -- 27.63 points over Uno in 2018 and 22.45 over Hanyu in 2019.

A win is a win, not sure why 'smoking' the competition has to be at 20 points, and not 15 or 10 (as Yuzu did in 2018 Olympics), when in skating where even one point makes all the different, 10+ is already a huge mark differential. Not to say men discipline was the only one with a 10+ mark gap, whilst all other disciplines were within 2 marks. But would you say their 2018 performance is not supportive of a GOAT argument for V/M just because they were only marginally ahead of P/C? I think not.

And as yume points out a lot of the differential can come from the major mistakes of the competitors rather than anything else (although in this case I agree it's the other skater's own fault). In this case, Hanyu's GPF 2015 performance was a more serious 'smoking' where not only was he 38 points ahead of second place, it was when everyone had tremendous skates and as far as I am aware, no rival was injured or sick.

I hope he will win 4CC and another worlds titles, by smoking the competition preferably. So he will meet those GOAT bullet criteria. Even if i bet we will see comments like "he only won by that margin because x skater bombed. so it isn't remarkable". Because it's him.

Reminds me of an American journalist who wrote an article before the 2018 Olympics to say if Yuzu gets his second Oly gold medal, he is the GOAT. Yet when he did, the same journalist turns around and say no actually, he needs a third Oly gold medal, then he will be the GOAT. It's never enough

 

[Tere19]

Hey, our thread refuting that Yuzu isn't a GOAT is shorter than the one claiming Alina is!!!



Because Yuzuru is a no brainer 2OGM = yes GOAT ....
Elena isynbaeva 2OGM =GOAT

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Imo winning with a slight margin against someone who did his best or nearly his best in both programs has more value than winning by 30 points because the one behind you bombed.
If someone does his best and you still beat him, it's that you are better.
It's unfortunate that he couldn't win both segments for his worlds and oly titles except Sochi. He only likes to do that at GPF apparently (3 times) like in 2015 when he "smoked" his competitors.
I hope he will win 4CC and another worlds titles, by smoking the competition preferably. So he will meet those GOAT bullet criteria. Even if i bet we will see comments like "he only won by that margin because x skater bombed. so it isn't remarkable". Because it's him.

Excuses like "he only won because x skater didn't do their best" or "skater x didn't compete" or "skater x was skating while injured so they weren't slated to win anyways" is employed consistently though.

People still attempted to trivialize Chen's WC 2018 win "only because Hanyu wasn't competing" (even though Hanyu would have been pressed to score as high as Chen had he showed up). And then when Hanyu did show up and skated well in WC2019, people said Chen only won because Hanyu was coming off injury - as if Hanyu didn't have a superb FS, still have an SP with 4-3 and 3A, and was landing every element (including 4S) in practice, not to mention Chen put out two amazing programs himself with higher difficulty which would have been hard to beat anyways.

As far as winning against someone's who does near their best, that is contextual when it's against someone who isn't as popular. Ten should have won 2013 Worlds and Machida should have won 2014 Worlds but were narrowly beaten by Chan and Hanyu (in both cases erroneously, IMO) due to the latters getting gifted higher PCS in spite of flawed programs (referring to Chan's LP and Hanyu's SP which still both garnered excessive PCS ensuring them the win). Of course, Ten doubled two triples, Machida had a loop error and those cost them the titles too. Uno also committed errors in 2017 Worlds which could have got him the win there. But to your statement "if someone performed at their best and you still beat them you are better", I don't know if supporters of Ten or Machida winning those Worlds would agree.

Compare that to Chen or Plushenko who won major titles so definitively -winning both segments easily - that even if their competitors performed at their best/near best they would have still come out on top. Hanyu at the 2015 GPF was a great example of this too where he dominated both segments, but we have yet to see him perform at his best or near his best at a major competition like Worlds or the Olympics in a way that definitively puts him superior to everyone else in the field. Respectively, his World title FSs and Olympic title SPs have been incredible. But IMO, a GOAT should be able to do both in the same World/Olympic competition, which Hanyu has yet to exhibit (although 2018 OWG was still impressive overall, both segments considered). He has consistently had a Worlds/Olympic SP or LP segment which "left the door open".

 

[Bcash]

In terms of results, he has a claim to GOAT status. In terms of actual programs, or back-to-back competitive performances, he's on shaky ground.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

In terms of results, he has a claim to GOAT status. In terms of actual programs, or back-to-back competitive performances, he's on shaky ground.

Agreed. Although I will saying certain programs like Seimei and his Chopin/Parisien Walkways SP when performed to their potential have been some of the greatest programs of all time for me, in general. 2015 NHK Seimei is arguably my fave FS of all time in any discipline (definitely in my top 3).

 

[DaNiCG]

Im in another fandom and whenever someone try to discredit my fave impact we answer with receipts and praise them so can this became a thread to praise on Hanyu? yes? no? I will still do it

Hanyu has set the world record scores 6 times under the current +5 / -5 GOE (Grade of Execution) system.
Hanyu has broken 12 world records scores before the 2018–19 season.
From the list of historical absolute scores, the top three historical combined scores, four out of the top five historical short program scores, and three out of the top five historical free program scores were scored by Hanyu.
First skater to win the Olympic champion title twice (consecutively) in 66 years.
First skater to win the Grand Prix Final 4 consecutive times.
First skater in history to successfully land a quadruple loop in competition.
First skater in history to successfully land a quadruple toe loop-triple Axel sequence in competition.
First skater to successfully land 3 quadruple jumps in the second half of a free skating program (2017 World Team Trophy).
Hanyu had been ranked first in the world standings for 5 consecutive seasons
Hanyu is regarded by analysts as a well-rounded skater, known for his ability to combine strong technique with mature and versatile artistry.
Hanyu is known for his difficult triple Axel entries, usually from a back counter or twizzles or a spread eagle.
His elements are praised for their high quality of execution and his jumps are noted for their precision, flow, and ice coverage.
First skater to break the 100, 200 and 300 score barrier

---------------------------------------------

(yes I quote Wikipedia, blame it to my lack of speaking abilities or 'explaining my thoughts out loud', I suck at 'communicating 101' ok?)

---------------------------------------------

Even after he has it all and more, he still push himself to do things no one did before, mad respect for him. A true inspiration.

 

[Mathman]

2015 NHK Seimei is arguably my fave FS of all time in any discipline.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I agree GOAT doesn't equal popularity, but the popularity point was brought up in response to opinions his programs are not moving (which they are entirely entitled to such opinion), that whilst Yuzu can't touch everyone, there are a good amount of people who are. Your note above is also why I said in an earlier post that compared to online clicks and views, the amount of people that turn up to his competitions and ice shows is a better indicator, since these cost money and effort to attend, so people attending are more likely to be there for his skating than just for social following or hype. The Poohs are just to demonstrate how many were there for him in particular.



A win is a win, not sure why 'smoking' the competition has to be at 20 points, and not 15 or 10 (as Yuzu did in 2018 Olympics), when in skating where even one point makes all the different, 10+ is already a huge mark differential. Not to say men discipline was the only one with a 10+ mark gap, whilst all other disciplines were within 2 marks. But would you say their 2018 performance is not supportive of a GOAT argument for V/M just because they were only marginally ahead of P/C? I think not.

And as yume points out a lot of the differential can come from the major mistakes of the competitors rather than anything else (although in this case I agree it's the other skater's own fault). In this case, Hanyu's GPF 2015 performance was a more serious 'smoking' where not only was he 38 points ahead of second place, it was when everyone had tremendous skates and as far as I am aware, no rival was injured or sick.

I wholely disagree with anyone who says Hanyu's programs aren't moving to a general audience, but I think on an individual level it's a matter of taste - and as pointed out, that person was speaking for themselves and not suggesting his programs are unmoving. It's like those who said the cliche "Chan's skating leaves me cold" - sure, you're entitled to that opinion, but that doesn't dispute that his programs inspire tons of other people. You'd have to be delusional or living under a rock to suggest Hanyu doesn't have an impact or contribution to skating and many people's appreciation of it.

My point about smoking the competition (which, of course, isn't everything) was because those skaters performed their best/near best in both segments which shut the door regardless of how others skated. And yes, GPF is an example I was talking about that was exemplary of this where he smoked the competition ... yes others had errors especially in the SP but even if they didn't, it wouldn't have mattered because he skated so well that he dominated the competition in both segments. My point was that he has yet to do that at a Worlds or Olympics.

Also, I don't know if any of those skaters were injured or sick in the 2015 GPF (IIRC, the SP was awful for many of them, except Hanyu)... but if you show up to a competition then you show up with the ability to compete. Skaters compete all the time with injuries or sickness or coming off injuries whether the media reports it or not. When my favourites have a bad competition or bad skate, my immediate go-to/safety-net reaction isn't "oh well they must be dealing with some sort of an injury, which is why they are performing poorly." Some of the comments you see are just lol-worthy: "OMG they missed a quad or an SBS jump - that means there must be something wrong! Are they injured?!?" Hanyu's GPF 2015 was remarkable because of how he skated in both segments and wasn't contingent on the others bombing or being at their best.

First place result is great and the margin of victory is indicative of dominance but for me, the medals/accolades aren't really the important thing so much as the performance. If everyone bombs including you, but you win, is that really an argument for you being one of the greatest?

V/M GOAT-ness is on the basis of their career performances and not just 2018 Olympics. Many (including myself) argue that P/C could have won if not for the SD malfunction -- but that doesn't discount the fact that V/M still brought their best SD and FD of the season to the Olympics in order to win. Yes they arguably had to rely on an issue with P/C to seal the win, but they still brought it in both segments. Had P/C won that wouldn't diminish V/M's goat-ness. In a similar way, had Chan skated well enough to win Sochi or Chen not bombed his SP in PC and managed to win, that wouldn't exactly dispute Hanyu's bid for GOAT if Hanyu had delivered excellent performances but just happened to come second. He's still an amazing skater and I look at the performances he has delivered moreso than the resulting medal color.

When I look at GOAT-ness I consider not the placements necessarily but the performance. There could always be someone better than you at the time but did you still skate well still (eg Kwan in 98, Kim in 2014, Medvedeva in 2018)? And more importantly, regardless of the field - did you bring your best skates to the most important competitions (Worlds/Olympics)? Hanyu has had some of them best skates ever at Olympic and World competitions, but just not in back to back segments. He's never dominated the competition in any Olympic or World title win of his, by skating cleanly or close to cleanly in both segments, the way others have.

That's not to discredit the merit of these wins, but I would expect a GOAT to have at least one major competition (Worlds/Olympics; SP+LP) where they performed to their potential or close to it. 2018 was the closest to him doing this, but he still had two errors in his FS and his difficulty wasn't his best. Opinions vary of course when it comes to GOAT criteria though.

 

[Interspectator]

Im in another fandom and whenever someone try to discredit my fave impact we answer with receipts and praise them so can this became a thread to praise on Hanyu? yes? no? I will still do it

Hanyu has set the world record scores 6 times under the current +5 / -5 GOE (Grade of Execution) system.
Hanyu has broken 12 world records scores before the 2018–19 season.
From the list of historical absolute scores, the top three historical combined scores, four out of the top five historical short program scores, and three out of the top five historical free program scores were scored by Hanyu.
First skater to win the Olympic champion title twice (consecutively) in 66 years.
First skater to win the Grand Prix Final 4 consecutive times.
First skater in history to successfully land a quadruple loop in competition.
First skater in history to successfully land a quadruple toe loop-triple Axel sequence in competition.
First skater to successfully land 3 quadruple jumps in the second half of a free skating program (2017 World Team Trophy).
Hanyu had been ranked first in the world standings for 5 consecutive seasons
Hanyu is regarded by analysts as a well-rounded skater, known for his ability to combine strong technique with mature and versatile artistry.
Hanyu is known for his difficult triple Axel entries, usually from a back counter or twizzles or a spread eagle.
His elements are praised for their high quality of execution and his jumps are noted for their precision, flow, and ice coverage.
First skater to break the 100, 200 and 300 score barrier

---------------------------------------------

(yes I quote Wikipedia, blame it to my lack of speaking abilities or 'explaining my thoughts out loud', I suck at 'communicating 101' ok?)

---------------------------------------------

Even after he has it all and more, he still push himself to do things no one did before, mad respect for him. A true inspiration.

These are all very convincing. :agree: what a great list

 

[Tere19]

So Yagudin win in 2002 its not legimate because plushenko fell in a jump then ???LOL

 

[Atlantis]

When I look at GOAT-ness I consider not the placements necessarily but the performance.

Me too, but I believe that the person who has 18 WRs has it covered.

----

If I'm being completely serious, the title "greatest of all time" hardly makes sense to me because if we try to compare what, for example, Button and Yuzuru brought to the sport it just seems like a fest of unfair comparisons all around. But I do consider Yuzuru to be "the greatest so far" and definitely in line of the living legends of the sport.

 

[ankifeather]

So according to some people, to have a solid claim to be one of the male GOAT, the skater:
1. Can't fall in the Olympics and Worlds (then Dick Button and Patrick Chan are out)
2. Have to be dominant in the sense that he win gold almost all the time, can't share gold and silver with any other skater in the same period (then Plushenko and Yagudin are out)
3. Needs the grand slam, including 4CC (then Browning and Chen are out)
4. Not only need to win multiple Olympics and Worlds, but also need to win both segments and smoke the competition by more than 20 points (well that cuts out most men)
5. Needs to be the best in all aspects of skating (again cuts out all men)
6. Have programs that suit your taste, the fact that youtube views and competition/show attendance of said skater shows a lot of people do like them is beyond the point

In that case, tell me, who in men is left for GOAT discussion? It's like in the zealous attempt to create the most stringest criteria to ensure Hanyu is not a GOAT or just a GOAT candidate with an Asterisk.....oops doesn't matter we have cut out all other men too. Whilst on the ladies side its, she is a GOAT, she is a GOAT too, we need all of these people to be GOAT

Of course Hanyu doesn't have to be the GOAT, and I agree no one can reach consensus on its exact meaning and its a phantom concept, but I couldn't help but LoL at the double standards going on in the two threads, more so just to suit certain skaters :sarcasm:

 

[yume]

Compare that to Chen or Plushenko who won major titles so definitively -winning both segments easily - that even if their competitors performed at their best/near best they would have.

I don't know about Plushy, but about Chen winning against a clinical Hanyu, just no. Clean Yuzu=Win. No discussion needed.
Even a clean Uno, freshly olympic silver medalist would have beat him.
Chen was superb at both worlds. But not so superb that no one could beat him if clean. Nah.