2017-2018 Programs by Discipline

[Ender]

He doesn't need to "aim" for high GOEs. The judges consistently give him and Fernandez mostly +3s for just *landing* their quads. Take a look at Hanyu's 4Lo for instance. Whenever he lands it, it's usually slightly off-kilter and probably worth a +1, but the judges give him +2 and +3 just for staying on one foot. Similar treatment happens for Chen. The judges need to realize that the skaters are already being rewarded for the difficulty of the element via its *base value* and they should reserve +2/+3 GOE for elements that truly merit them in order to differentiate the skaters. One of these days soon, the men's judges are gonna find themselves in a pickle if Fernandez, Hanyu, etc. all skate clean and they give them all the automatic +2/+3 GOEs and 9.75/10.00 PCS that they're used to giving out at major championships and you end up with an absurd or indefensible result with a virtual tie that could have gone either way

I don't see any +3 across the board for Hanyu at WC even though he skated better than anyone and actually won it.
If he wants to aim for +3 in everything, it's his choice. And he has reasons to aim for that.

 

[Altie]

He doesn't need to "aim" for high GOEs. The judges consistently give him and Fernandez mostly +3s for just *landing* their quads. Take a look at Hanyu's 4Lo for instance. Whenever he lands it, it's usually slightly off-kilter and probably worth a +1, but the judges give him +2 and +3 just for staying on one foot. Similar treatment happens for Chen. The judges need to realize that the skaters are already being rewarded for the difficulty of the element via its *base value* and they should reserve +2/+3 GOE for elements that truly merit them in order to differentiate the skaters. One of these days soon, the men's judges are gonna find themselves in a pickle if Fernandez, Hanyu, etc. all skate clean and they give them all the automatic +2/+3 GOEs and 9.75/10.00 PCS that they're used to giving out at major championships and you end up with an absurd or indefensible result with a virtual tie that could have gone either way

Oh yes ?
Would you please ive us the bullets that Yuzuru doesn't deserve for one of his high GOE 4Lo (or other jumps, for all that I know ?) ? Because I see at the very least steps preceding the jumps, good height and distance, good flow in and out of the jump, which is worth +2.
Last time I checked the ISU rules, it was written nowhere that being "slightly off-kilter" deserved no more than +1...
I think even people who don't like Yuzu's style recognize that he's a objectively a great technician, and that he deserves high GOEs on his jumps (when he lands them cleanly)

 

[Mohacz]

Victoria Sinitsina/ Nikita Katsalapov:

FD: Vocalise, Piano concerto no. 2, Rachmaninoff

http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20170530/1121152226.html

 

[RemyRose]

Marchei/Hotarek SP Renato Carosone "Tu vuo fa l'americano"
Choreographed by Scali
https://www.instagram.com/p/BUuQ2kJAJjs/?taken-by=ondrejhotarek&hl=en
https://www.instagram.com/p/BUt4X2egxTG/?taken-by=valemarchei14&hl=en

 

[LeCygne]

The audience don't give athletes medals. That pretty much I know.

As a judge at piano competition before, we never give pianists lower than they deserve just because they perform Rachmaninov piano concerto No. 2 for the 1000th times. That is not disrespectful. To perfect their skills before the audience and make it the best they can do is very respectful.

This is completely different, as there is limited repertoire that classical musicians can choose from for any given competition. No one composes his/her own original piece for competition and it would be surprising if someone didn't use the same repertoire over and over again.

Completely disagree with that point.

I'm disappointed and annoyed at the top men recycling old programs, especially in Yuzuru's case, but Yuzuru does not owe the audience anything of what you're asking, and that actually goes for any skater. It would be very nice for all the top men and their teams to come up with new programs that raise the bar both technically and artistically, but that's a tall order, and they don't have to accept it.

These are athletes chasing the Olympics, and while I might disagree and roll my eyes at their decisions for next season, they should ultimately be competing for themselves and doing what they think will best help them achieve their goals. Whether that aligns with the wants/desires/expectations of the audience is irrelevant. We are just spectators, and at the end of the day, these are their dreams.

I am not sure I would put it as disrespectful to the audience, but I would put it as not focused on the audience. It is a decision focused on the judges and winning, which is very okay in its own way. He has spoiled us greatly in the past two seasons with groundbreaking artistry. I'm sure he has a vision of making Chopin "more perfect," but I personally don't feel the need to see that happen. It was good enough before to satisfy me. I feel the thrill is gone, but I do like the new exit from the 3A.

ETA: And also, the "audience" isn't a monolith—it includes some Yuzu fans who will be happy no matter what he chooses, and casual viewers who won't know the difference. It raises eyebrows among devoted watchers of fs who don't expect to see a program repeated more than once (that's me ). I would have been good with Seimei for the LP, but now I'm hoping he doesn't bring it back.

I don't disagree with any of these points, but the sentiments of disappointment, annoyance, etc. expressed above are precisely what I was referring to. There are fans of certain skaters and there are fans of the sport. Of course Yuzu's fans will be happy as long as he does whatever he can to win, but winning in this fashion isn't up to the standard of the skater and artist that we know he is. As a fan of the sport, I expect more from its greats, and that, in my personal opinion, does not consist of using the same SP for 3/4 seasons in a single cycle. It was a selfish decision and sometimes athletes do need to make selfish decisions, but even this doesn't seem to be at the core of who Yuzu is as an athlete. If you read Yuzu's interviews, he always talks about the performance and giving to the audience more so than just winning, and I suspect that his sub-par performance at the last Olympics, despite winning, is a lot of what is driving him this Olympic cycle. I wonder if he got spooked by the quadfests last season and is now adapting his strategy accordingly. Anyway, just my (clearly unpopular) opinion.

 

[Mango]

Reading your comment I recalled a Yuzuru quote (did I remember correctly?)

"Score is score, performance is performance."

I wonder what he has in mind for the FS. Which program can he upcycle for this season?

 

[Marin]

Marchei/Hotarek SP Renato Carosone "Tu vuo fa l'americano"
Choreographed by Scali
https://www.instagram.com/p/BUuQ2kJAJjs/?taken-by=ondrejhotarek&hl=en
https://www.instagram.com/p/BUt4X2egxTG/?taken-by=valemarchei14&hl=en

Can we move to 2018/19 season already? :sad21:

 

[beki]

I don't disagree with any of these points, but the sentiments of disappointment, annoyance, etc. expressed above are precisely what I was referring to. There are fans of certain skaters and there are fans of the sport. Of course Yuzu's fans will be happy as long as he does whatever he can to win, but winning in this fashion isn't up to the standard of the skater and artist that we know he is. As a fan of the sport, I expect more from its greats, and that, in my personal opinion, does not consist of using the same SP for 3/4 seasons in a single cycle. It was a selfish decision and sometimes athletes do need to make selfish decisions, but even this doesn't seem to be at the core of who Yuzu is as an athlete. If you read Yuzu's interviews, he always talks about the performance and giving to the audience more so than just winning, and I suspect that his sub-par performance at the last Olympics, despite winning, is a lot of what is driving him this Olympic cycle. I wonder if he got spooked by the quadfests last season and is now adapting his strategy accordingly. Anyway, just my (clearly unpopular) opinion.

When you phrase it this way, I am with you. It sounded too harsh to me before. I am a huge Yuzu fan—he is the one who motivated me to attend a competition for the first time—but I am a fan of the sport as well. I don't think he got spooked by the quadfests, but it does seem like he got spooked by having an inconsistent short program with LGC (but ultimately what a gift that was to the audience). It is still so early. As to "the core of who Yuzu is as an athlete," I know that will emerge in some fashion. Maybe by challenging the 4Lz. That would make his choice more understandable to me. Now that I've reflected, I feel compassion for him: the pressure that comes from being one of the greats is crushing. If he wins a second gold (fingers crossed), that will be a historic accomplishment no matter what programs he does it with.

 

[Anyasnake]

Victoria Sinitsina/ Nikita Katsalapov:

FD: Vocalise, Piano concerto no. 2, Rachmaninoff

http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20170530/1121152226.html

Okay, even though people in this thread are not happy with the music choices this season, I would like to pay my respect to the judges who will have to listen to same music AGAIN. I would have been happier with a tom & jerry program.
Rach is almost an easy choice, and honestly these two might be able to perform a good rock'n'roll FD. WHY ?

 

[beki]

I would like to pay my respect to the judges who will have to listen to same music AGAIN.

They have made their bed and now they must lie in it. If they bothered to reward out-of-the-box choices in their marks instead of recoiling from them, skaters wouldn't default to warhorses so readily. Thanks to them we have to sit through all this music again.

 

[Anyasnake]

They have made their bed and now they must lie in it. If they bothered to reward out-of-the-box choices in their marks instead of recoiling from them, skaters wouldn't default to warhorses so readily. Thanks to them we have to sit through all this music again.

Didn't think like that. And this is right. How can they listen to 30 years of Rach or Carmen or whatever...
Don't get me wrong I love this pieces. But this is too much.

 

[Ender]

This is completely different, as there is limited repertoire that classical musicians can choose from for any given competition. No one composes his/her own original piece for competition and it would be surprising if someone didn't use the same repertoire over and over again.

"Limited repertoire" is not something I would apply for classical music.

I don't disagree with any of these points, but the sentiments of disappointment, annoyance, etc. expressed above are precisely what I was referring to. There are fans of certain skaters and there are fans of the sport. Of course Yuzu's fans will be happy as long as he does whatever he can to win, but winning in this fashion isn't up to the standard of the skater and artist that we know he is. As a fan of the sport, I expect more from its greats, and that, in my personal opinion, does not consist of using the same SP for 3/4 seasons in a single cycle. It was a selfish decision and sometimes athletes do need to make selfish decisions, but even this doesn't seem to be at the core of who Yuzu is as an athlete. If you read Yuzu's interviews, he always talks about the performance and giving to the audience more so than just winning, and I suspect that his sub-par performance at the last Olympics, despite winning, is a lot of what is driving him this Olympic cycle. I wonder if he got spooked by the quadfests last season and is now adapting his strategy accordingly. Anyway, just my (clearly unpopular) opinion.

Paying attention to delivery great performances doesn't mean they have to deliver various types of performances. Great performances are different from big range of variety.

Some pianists spend their whole life to perform just several composers and they're famous for that. Some singers only do Baroque music and never do romantic. It's totally normal. Ask the pianist Mitsuko Uchida who is famous mostly for Mozart. No one calls her an average pianist. She is A list. And her repertoire isn't big.

 

[Procrastinator]

Oh yes ?
Would you please ive us the bullets that Yuzuru doesn't deserve for one of his high GOE 4Lo (or other jumps, for all that I know ?) ? Because I see at the very least steps preceding the jumps, good height and distance, good flow in and out of the jump, which is worth +2.
Last time I checked the ISU rules, it was written nowhere that being "slightly off-kilter" deserved no more than +1...
I think even people who don't like Yuzu's style recognize that he's a objectively a great technician, and that he deserves high GOEs on his jumps (when he lands them cleanly)

He does indeed fulfill many of the features you mention, but judges can also deduct -1 for a weak/unstable landing from the total GOE for the element. That would bring him to +1

 

[SXTN]

Kostner skated to Ne Me Quitte Pas. I wondered if that was her new SP as it has 3 jumping passes, 3 spins, footowork sequence and is 2:50 mins long :think:
http://radikal.ru/video/gwCoF6D6kEw

Yes, that is a short program. Though I hope not. That is probably the worst music choice she has ever made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKnRyZqxMak

On a positive note: I have never seen her attempt both flip and lutz at a show.

 

[beki]

Yes, that is a short program. Though I hope not. That is probably the worst music choice she has ever made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKnRyZqxMak

On a positive note: I have never seen her attempt both flip and lutz at a show.

I thought it seemed below par for her. She usually seems to imbue her music choices with deeper meaning, fit into them hand in glove, but this time it was only an ill-fitting soundtrack. I would have thought she could bring the pathos, but I didn't feel she connected to the theme of aching loss. For me Pogo's Rose won the night on the ladies side. It is good Caro is using the shows for jump prep.

 

[ines42575]

Can we move to 2018/19 season already? :sad21:

Why?

 

[Ender]

He does indeed fulfill many of the features you mention, but judges can also deduct -1 for a weak/unstable landing from the total GOE for the element. That would bring him to +1

Except that whenever Hanyu does well, all of his elements deserve +2 and +3, unlike some others who don't fulfill most of the bullets but can still get +2 and +3, with questionable technique too.

 

[LeCygne]

"Limited repertoire" is not something I would apply for classical music.

Paying attention to delivery great performances doesn't mean they have to deliver various types of performances. Great performances are different from big range of variety.

Some pianists spend their whole life to perform just several composers and they're famous for that. Some singers only do Baroque music and never do romantic. It's totally normal. Ask the pianist Mitsuko Uchida who is famous mostly for Mozart. No one calls her an average pianist. She is A list. And her repertoire isn't big.

I understand that the body of classical music works is vast; I was a classically trained violinist for over a decade. I was only making the point that musicians are limited in their craft by the physical compositions available to them in a way that skaters performing original choreography are not. And no one is calling for Yuzu to provide more variety or showcase a completely different style in the Olympic year. Like the Shibutani's sticking with Coldplay, he would be well within his right to stay in his comfort zone and choose another classical piece, but to reuse the same exact program without so much as rethinking the choreo is just a disappointment. As someone said, he may have a vision for a more perfect performance of this SP, but I doubt that many of us feel the need to see that. Even Mao when she brought back the Chopin Nocturne rechoreographed the program so that it felt new and fresh while staying smack dab in the center of what she does best.

In any case, all the best to Yuzu this season. While I'm disappointed in his choice, I hope it's the right one for him to accomplish his goals. If he repeats as Olympic champion, that's what people will talk about.

 

[Neenah16]

I understand that the body of classical music works is vast; I was a classically trained violinist for over a decade. I was only making the point that musicians are limited in their craft by the physical compositions available to them in a way that skaters performing original choreography are not. And no one is calling for Yuzu to provide more variety or showcase a completely different style in the Olympic year. Like the Shibutani's sticking with Coldplay, he would be well within his right to stay in his comfort zone and choose another classical piece, but to reuse the same exact program without so much as rethinking the choreo... Even Mao when she brought back the Chopin Nocturne rechoreographed the program so that it felt new and fresh while staying smack dab in the center of what she does best.

If you know something we don't, please share.. you seem very sure that there he is not going to change the choreography or even the music cut and as far as I know he did not say anything about that. Is there an interview with him, Jeff, or even Brian that I missed?

 

[LeCygne]

If you know something we don't, please share.. you seem very sure that there he is not going to change the choreography or even the music cut and as far as I know he did not say anything about that. Is there an interview with him, Jeff, or even Brian that I missed?

He performed it at Fantasy on Ice recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7fs0HeygrA It's possible that it will evolve over the course of the season, but there are no indications that that's the case.