2015 Worlds Ladies Short Program March 26

[sabinfire]

I really don't understand why you find requiring these skills so offending. Obviously nice posture isn't a necessity or reality in every person's life but figure skating doesn't serve every form in the world.

Is posture a 'required skill'? You seem to contradict that statement by saying that scores do not take into account posture, but then say it's the 'backbone of quality performances'.

The only 'offending' part of these statements is how they are almost like a personal attack on an athlete. Posture is relatively unimportant to being able to perform competitively in a sport. If you acknowledge that improving posture may not be reflected in better scores, why is this brought up as an issue so often? I will accept your final comment as being the crux of your viewpoint, which is that people have different ideas of what constitutes 'good figure skating' -- which in this case, appears to be looking pretty on the ice.

 

[peg]

Is posture a 'required skill'? You seem to contradict that statement by saying that scores do not take into account posture, but then say it's the 'backbone of quality performances'.

The only 'offending' part of these statements is how they are almost like a personal attack on an athlete. Posture is relatively unimportant to being able to perform competitively in a sport. If you acknowledge that improving posture may not be reflected in better scores, why is this brought up as an issue so often? I will accept your final comment as being the crux of your viewpoint, which is that people have different ideas of what constitutes 'good figure skating' -- which in this case, appears to be looking pretty on the ice.

Posture isn't about 'looking pretty'. It's about body position. And in sports like figure skating, gymnastics, and diving, body position is part of the criteria. It's not just about executing a skill, but also about the quality of the execution (although it does seem to be significantly less important in FS these days than it used to be and than it is in gymnastics and diving.)

Poor posture, lack of extension, flexed feet are all fair game for criticism in a sport where quality of execution is judged. In sports like hockey,soccer, speed skating etc., it's irrelevant.

 

[sabinfire]

It's just too bad, though, that the sport isn't enforcing more musical and creative skating. [...] None of these performances are really on the level of watching a great singer or dancer or actor.

Really confused by your statement. You call figure skating a 'sport', but then say none of the athletes are on the level of a great singer/dancer/actor? Are we talking about art, or a sport?

Although current system is not conducive to creativity, think of all the skaters competing today with great creativity/musicality -- how many of them are blowing up Facebook or have huge followings that are larger than the skaters with good jumping elements?

Posture isn't about 'looking pretty'. It's about body position.

Body position in order to execute a skill or look pretty? Can you execute a skill well with "bad posture"?

 

[Blades of Passion]

Really confused by your statement. You call figure skating a 'sport', but then say none of the athletes are on the level of a great singer/dancer/actor? Are we talking about art, or a sport?

Figure skating should be both, at the same time. It could be. It used to be. It's not now.

 

[peg]

Body position in order to execute a skill or look pretty? Can you execute a skill well with "bad posture"?

Of course you can execute a skill with bad posture (and poor form more generally). But it doesn't have the same quality of execution and is a flaw that should be addressed. (Which Rika seems to be doing, so good for her, even though she hasn't completely fixed the issue)

I really don't understand why you're so stuck on this 'looking pretty' thing. I personally couldn't care less about how pretty a skater is/looks. But I do care about proper execution, and that includes good extension, clean body lines etc.

 

[sabinfire]

Figure skating should be both, at the same time. It could be. It used to be. It's not now.

Well, I think we're definitely getting into the eye of the beholder territory now. I think there are artistic elements in figure skating, even today, and even in Tuktamysheva's skating (which you had called out in particular a few posts above). My question would be: if people think the current judging system is confusing and/or biased -- how would you judge figure skating in a world where artistry is a huge part of the score?

I really don't understand why you're so stuck on this 'looking pretty' thing.

I'm not one of the people complaining about skaters having bad posture and looking terrible on the ice, so I can't really answer that. I agree, I could care less about how pretty a skater looks. They could look like the Hunchback of Notre Dame for all I care if they can get the job done.

 

[Sugarpova]

Polina's my least favorite of the three but I have to hand it to her. She may take over the US next year.

same feeling

My fav US lady is actually Samantha Cesario but sadly she's the least likely to be on top


Im quite ugly myself so most of the skaters are pretty for me

 

[peg]

I'm not one of the people complaining about skaters having bad posture and looking terrible on the ice, so I can't really answer that. I agree, I could care less about how pretty a skater looks. They could look like the Hunchback of Notre Dame for all I care if they can get the job done.

Well you're the one going on about "looking pretty" and conflating posture with prettiness. The people critiquing her posture weren't saying she didn't look pretty. Critiquing someone's body lines does not equal saying they are not pretty

Are you really unable to see the difference between looking pretty and poor execution/form? Poor execution and poor form can look terrible, but it has nothing to do with looking pretty. It has to do with poor quality of execution. Body lines are part of good execution.

Again, quality of execution and clean form matters in sports where that is part of the judging criteria. Part of 'getting the job done' is good body positions. I'm not sure why that's such a hard concept to grasp. :scratch:

Anyway, I'm done.

While Rika's poor body position during her choreo may not bother you personally, it is a completely valid critique of a figure skater's performance and has nothing to do with 'looking pretty'.

 

[sabinfire]

Im quite ugly myself so most of the skaters are pretty for me

You are Russian, correct? I find that statement difficult to believe.

Anyway, I'm done.

Me too.

 

[Sugarpova]

You are Russian, correct? I find that statement difficult to believe.

lol there's always an ugly duckling in the family of swans

It doesn't have to be a contest. Skating can evolve year to year and reach new levels of difficulty without taking anything away from the skaters who came before. I love Michelle Kwan but acknowledge the jumpers today are more skilled than she was, but her artistry and skill elevated the sport at the time.

I think In the same way Mao's skill with the 3A paved the way for skilled jumpers like Tuk. Having a lady consistently challenge herself with the 3A like Mao did made the jump more of a real possibility for future skaters.

Yuna, Mao, and many of the skaters before them were greats. Having great skaters now doesn't make them less great and it's exciting to see young skaters evolve and grow into future greats. Comparing them all is kind of pointless. Both Mao and Tuk are fantastic skaters with their own strengths and weaknesses.

I think if Tuk can get the PCS improved she could be even more impressive. But she has time to grow, that doesn't take away from what she achieved here.

all the comparing is just head scratching
Can we just appreciate all the accomplishments of the past AND present!

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well, I think we're definitely getting into the eye of the beholder territory now. I think there are artistic elements in figure skating, even today, and even in Tuktamysheva's skating (which you had called out in particular a few posts above). My question would be: if people think the current judging system is confusing and/or biased -- how would you judge figure skating in a world where artistry is a huge part of the score?

The sport can become more artistic from the rules of the technical elements themselves. The rules currently reward skaters for doing things that are rather ugly and/or unmusical and/or detract from the overall choreographic purpose. There is no reason it has to be like that.

The "world where artistry if part of the score" would be no different than it is now, on paper. There are scores for performance, choreography, interpretation and GOE guidelines for rewarding elements that specifically work with the music. The PCS still don't really get scored accurately, they are more about reputation and momentum. Ideally they would be, although as of right now there isn't even that much going on in the programs to differentiate skaters hugely in this way, because the performances have become SO tunnel-visioned with packing in transitions and laborious movement ahead of truly fluid, musical, inspired movement.

 

[sabinfire]

Some of the elements can look ugly ("butt spin") and points are gained from including these, I would agree with you there.

However, I have always said if people really want to see musical/creative performances that aren't boxed into a competitive space where certain elements are required/rewarded -- there are always exhibitions and ice shows.

 

[Globetrotter]

The sport can become more artistic from the rules of the technical elements themselves. The rules currently reward skaters for doing things that are rather ugly and/or unmusical and/or detract from the overall choreographic purpose. There is no reason it has to be like that.

The "world where artistry if part of the score" would be no different than it is now, on paper. There are scores for performance, choreography, interpretation and GOE guidelines for rewarding elements that specifically work with the music. The PCS still don't really get scored accurately, they are more about reputation and momentum. Ideally they would be, although as of right now there isn't even that much going on in the programs to differentiate skaters hugely in this way, because the performances have become SO tunnel-visioned with packing in transitions and laborious movement ahead of truly fluid, musical, inspired movement.

So based on your opinion, it does seem that in theory, PCS and TES are good enough to reward technical excellence and artistry. It is just that in practical implementation, things didn't seem to work out as planned. Seems like it is the judging execution that seems suspect. If we continue the current number of judges (9) in majors, do you think it will help if say 4 judges are assigned to assess GOEs and 5 judges are there for the components? That way, they can be focussed on looking at quality of elements and another group just on checking off the programme components. Do you think this will help? Will ISU accept this suggestion?

 

[mskitty]

Just finished watching the Ladies. An amazing skate from Liza, the 3A was superb, hopefully she can lay down a great skate in free and win her first world title. The way she has bounced back this year, it has been great to watch, she is a true fighter and champion.

Totally agree. Loved the joy on her face at the end of the program. Haven't had time to watch all the ladies' yet...I'll see them on TV in a few days, but after the comments about the 3A I had to watch Elizaveta. I hope she nails the free and the US ladies can get a bounce from some quality performances

 

[mskitty]

Oops! Meant to include a quote in above post. Apologies to the member, 3T3T I think, whose comment I used w/o attribution. Still agree...Liza rocked it.

 

[FSfan99]

Liza would've placed 10th in the MEN'S SP with her score. Wow.

 

[yuki]

Liza would've placed 10th in the MEN'S SP with her score. Wow.

Actually, with her PCS factored like the men's, she would have a score of 86.01 and would be 3rd

 

[cheerknithanson]

Actually, with her PCS factored like the men's, she would have a score of 86.01 and would be 3rd

That's actually ridculously AWESOME!

Goes to show how she's trying to push technical content.

 

[seniorita]

Yesterday I caught up watching ladies after Liza and I saw the leaders's score 44++ on top of my screen and first reaction was . And then I read the news So happy!

 

[Skater Boy]

Oops! Meant to include a quote in above post. Apologies to the member, 3T3T I think, whose comment I used w/o attribution. Still agree...Liza rocked it.

Does she have the triple axel in her long?