2016 JGP Ljubljana Cup Ladies SP

[topaz emerald]

I seriously can't believe that the seasons best for a US girl in the SP was Ashley's skate today. What happened to us?

It's actually not bad, her score was 57.08, and she definitely did not do her best. Zagitova got 68.09. I am not familiar the how the point system works...all I know is if you fall, you get a one pt. deduction if you rotated your jump fully, as for the rest I have no clue.....so what does she need to do to get a score like Zagitova's? Anyone like to explain?

 

[YesWay]

Hi Sam,Can you tell my how on earth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgVPPA2VLvw&feature=youtu.be&t=2m6s this lutz gets not e, not even a ! and even get +2 . Could you make a jumpatron ? thanks.
Her spins traveled half rink and still got GOE.........

Edge looked OK to me, using Youtube's own slo-mo facility. It would help if we could see it from a different camera angle though.

Regarding her spin GoE, what makes you think travelling during a spin prevents +GoE?

GoE bullet points for spins:
1) good speed or acceleration during spin
2) ability to center a spin quickly
3) balanced rotations in all positions
4) clearly more than required number of revolutions
5) good, strong position(s) (including height and air/landing position in flying spins)
6) creativity and originality
7) good control throughout all phases
8) element matched to the musical structure

She might lose "ability to center a spin quickly" bullet point, but that still leaves 7 other bullet points she can hit... penalty for travelling can be as little as -1 from total GoE, and she didn't get +2's across the board...

 

[topaz emerald]

Well, that is why many people on this board believe that Ashley is such a strong skater, despite not accomplishing high levels of success in the U.S. So many variables and factors are different from competition to competition and event to event, however, it is what is is. So looking just at the previous JGP events YTD one would have to say (at least thru the SP today) that Ashley is the best Junior ladies competitor on the 2016 JGP circuit by posting the highest SP score. And maybe she is, I just read so many comments about how she needs to fix this and that and in watching her program I agree, there are so many elements of her skating that need work. I think the message she has taught us all is simple - do the jumps, don't fall and have other skaters make mistakes and you will do well, at least at the Junior level. But we must give credit to where credit is due, she put together a good performance, placed well so hopefully she can take that momentum to her FS. For me, if she doesn't hold on to 5th Place, it's all for not because the Russians, Japanese and Koreans still beat US. So let's go Ashley

I watched her lp at Glacier Falls, where she backloaded a 2axel-toe combo, and 3flip/half loop/salchow, and triple loop. She has good transitions leading up to her jumps. I think she's going to perform this lp at slovenia, if I'm not mistaken....curious to see how she will do and be judged....

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Edge looked OK to me, using Youtube's own slo-mo facility. It would help if we could see it from a different camera angle though.

Regarding her spin GoE, what makes you think travelling during a spin prevents +GoE?

GoE bullet points for spins:
1) good speed or acceleration during spin
2) ability to center a spin quickly
3) balanced rotations in all positions
4) clearly more than required number of revolutions
5) good, strong position(s) (including height and air/landing position in flying spins)
6) creativity and originality
7) good control throughout all phases
8) element matched to the musical structure

She might lose "ability to center a spin quickly" bullet point, but that still leaves 7 other bullet points she can hit... and penalty for travelling can be as little as -1 from total GoE...

Traveling on your spin is an error that is supposed to result in a deduction from -1 to -3 (from the overall GOE). So yes, in the case of very bad traveling, even if she hits all the other 7 +GOE bullets: +3-3=0.
(And btw, a lot of traveling also means there is no "good control throughout all phases" IMO.)

 

[skatelikewind1966]

for me, Medvedeva is SLOW, very poor edges, WEAK transitions. The only thing she's good at is staying on her feet, but without looking effortless; and she looks like a young Rachel Weisz. Her choreography and programs thus far have been forgettable and uninspiring, choppy and doesn't make any sense. I will take Ashley Lin's short program here to hers any day.

We've seen Gabrielle already....Lin > Gabrielle. It remains to be seen what Starr and Kaitlyn can do, but I have high hopes

I do not know if it is fair to compare skaters to other skaters unless they face one another in the same competition. In looking at icenetwork.com, Gabrielle beat Ashley in Regionals '16, Sectionals '16 and then fell one spot to Ashley at Nationals '16 (Gabrielle 2 > Ashley 1). So far this year, I only see one competition where Ashley and Gabrielle compete head-to-head and that was at Glacier Falls where Gabrielle beat her in the FR (Gabrielle 1 > Ashley 0). I do see Kaitlyn Nguyen competed at Glacier Falls too and it appears she beat Ashley as well (and Gabrielle). Again, I'm not saying 1 is better than the other, you went there so just helping you with your math while making sure we compare skaters to one another fairly.

Starr Andrews is a firecracker who looked phenomenal in Salt Lake City last week. She is slightly older than the 3 ladies referenced in these posts, but she is getting some momentum and will get to compete at Regionals giving her one more competition under her belt before going to Sectionals. I like this young lady and hope she can make a splash on the senior circuit in a couple of years.

 

[YesWay]

Traveling on your spin is an error that is supposed to result in a deduction from -1 to -3 (from the overall GOE). So yes, in the case of very bad traveling, even if she hits all the other 7 +GOE bullets: +3-3=0.
(And btw, a lot of traveling also means there is no "good control throughout all phases" IMO.)

I don't think it was so bad as to be -3.
-1 or -2 seems about right to me, and that appears to be what the judges went with too.

I don't see any problem with that, especially considering the flat/positive GoE awarded to Kihira for a spin with even worse travelling and (arguably) not hitting as many bullet points either. Seems consistent to me.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I don't think it was so bad as to be -3.
-1 or -2 seems about right to me, and that appears to be what the judges went with too.

I don't see any problem with that, especially considering the flat/positive GoE awarded to Kihira for a spin with even worse travelling and (arguably) not hitting as many bullet points either. Seems consistent to me.

The +3-3=0 example was because your previous statement sounded to me as if traveling - no matter how bad - would not be enough alone to prevent +GOE. I just wanted to state that it can be.

-1 to -2 would be fine with me too, but that doesn't seem to be what the judges went with? I don't see how she would be hitting enough +GOE bullet points to warrant a +2, so by no means should she be getting +2's or even +1's overall.

And the same problem appearing with Rika does not make it right at all. There are girls with actually really good spins who do not get enough credit compared to Alina/Rika this way. And that's not okay.

 

[hippomoomin]

I personally think traveling in spins should be -GOE, but it is not always the case.
Yulia for example, had some very obvious traveling in her final I-spin in her best years of competing, but still got huge GOE for her spins. Many people agued she was traveling with a very difficulty position with a very fast speed. Traveling spins is very distracting and traveling in a fast rotation makes it more obvious.

Traveling on your spin is an error that is supposed to result in a deduction from -1 to -3 (from the overall GOE). So yes, in the case of very bad traveling, even if she hits all the other 7 +GOE bullets: +3-3=0.
(And btw, a lot of traveling also means there is no "good control throughout all phases" IMO.)

 

[topaz emerald]

I do not know if it is fair to compare skaters to other skaters unless they face one another in the same competition. In looking at icenetwork.com, Gabrielle beat Ashley in Regionals '16, Sectionals '16 and then fell one spot to Ashley at Nationals '16 (Gabrielle 2 > Ashley 1). So far this year, I only see one competition where Ashley and Gabrielle compete head-to-head and that was at Glacier Falls where Gabrielle beat her in the FR (Gabrielle 1 > Ashley 0). I do see Kaitlyn Nguyen competed at Glacier Falls too and it appears she beat Ashley as well (and Gabrielle). Again, I'm not saying 1 is better than the other, you went there so just helping you with your math while making sure we compare skaters to one another fairly.

Starr Andrews is a firecracker who looked phenomenal in Salt Lake City last week. She is slightly older than the 3 ladies referenced in these posts, but she is getting some momentum and will get to compete at Regionals giving her one more competition under her belt before going to Sectionals. I like this young lady and hope she can make a splash on the senior circuit in a couple of years.

I only saw Gabrielle compete in Yokohama just recently. She didn't so that well, but she tried her best I tried finding other videos of hers, but couldn't.
Starr beat Nguyen at the US Classic, but not by much. I don't know why they didn't send give her a grand prix though. And please does anyone know if Starr and Nguyen share the same coaches? I think Nguyen has the most potential, but she is only 12. And you know with puberty, expectations, and pressure and all that, who knows what will happen, but I see a light at the end of the tunnel for US ladies figure skating. Cross my fingers

 

[YesWay]

The +3-3=0 example was because your previous statement sounded to me as if traveling - no matter how bad - would not be enough alone to prevent +GOE. I just wanted to state that it can be.

-1 to -2 would be fine with me too, but that doesn't seem to be what the judges went with? I don't see how she would be hitting enough +GOE bullet points to warrant a +2, so by no means should she be getting +2's or even +1's overall.

And the same problem appearing with Rika does not make it right at all. There are girls with actually really good spins who do not get enough credit compared to Alina/Rika this way. And that's not okay.

Um, no...the purpose of my first post was to refute earlier poster who seemed to think +2 GoE was not possible, if skater was travelling. But it is possible.

Personally, I thought +3 for Zagitova's spin could be justified, but whatever - YMMV.

Which skaters didn't get enough GoE for their spins compared to Zagitova/Kihira?

 

[voolfee]

It's actually not bad, her score was 57.08, and she definitely did not do her best. Zagitova got 68.09. I am not familiar the how the point system works...all I know is if you fall, you get a one pt. deduction if you rotated your jump fully, as for the rest I have no clue.....so what does she need to do to get a score like Zagitova's? Anyone like to explain?

I think Ashly Lin should say a big thank you to the judges that they are didn't downgrade her 3T in the combo and didn't put UR to 3F and 3Lo. Her score shouldn't be more than 50 points.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Personally, I thought +3 for Zagitova's spin could be justified, but whatever - YMMV.

Which skaters didn't get enough GoE for their spins compared to Zagitova/Kihira?

Oh wow. I'd think the only GOE bullet points Zagitovas layback could get are good speed, good position + more rotation than necessary. 2 is gone, IMO 7 too with too much traveling. I don't see any originality or creativity, it's the general layback, and she loses too much speed in the last position to get point 3. So IMO, that's a +1 GOE without the traveling, with it 0 to -1.

Alisa Lozko. Both her last spins deserved to be +3's to Alina's/Rika's 0s.
(and potentially more other girls too, but I only watched the top 4. Oh, but Marins layback should have arguably gotten her more points compared to Alina too... yes, they scored higher anyway, but just 'higher' doesn't mean the gap is big enough)

 

[topaz emerald]

I think Ashly Lin should say a big thank you to the judges that they are didn't downgrade her 3T in the combo and didn't put UR to 3F and 3Lo. Her score shouldn't be more than 50 points.

her 3T was slightly UR, and I don't agree with your comment.

 

[skatelikewind1966]

I only saw Gabrielle compete in Yokohama just recently. She didn't so that well, but she tried her best I tried finding other videos of hers, but couldn't.
Starr beat Nguyen at the US Classic, but not by much. I don't know why they didn't send give her a grand prix though. And please does anyone know if Starr and Nguyen share the same coaches? I think Nguyen has the most potential, but she is only 12. And you know with puberty, expectations, and pressure and all that, who knows what will happen, but I see a light at the end of the tunnel for US ladies figure skating. Cross my fingers

Starr and Kaitlyn do not have the same coaches though Kaitlyn and Akira do, which should help both girls continue to improve and feed off of one another (assuming they are both competitive which I think they are). Kaitlyn is on her 3rd coach in 3 years and has changed Regions (now in the West). Gabrielle has also changed to the West making that Region much more competitive. The Midwest therefore loses 2 top skaters opening the door for other skaters, like Kim, who have not been able to make it out of Regionals in past years. Starr will now be put in the ISP (due to her total score at last competition) but Kaitlyn will have to wait until next year to qualify based on age.

 

[Meoima]

Alina goes on inside for great part of entry, switches to outside briefly and snaps back to inside at take off. At best it should have been called as !

Nah I think it is hard to say Zagitova has edge issue with lutz from that angle as the time her edge left the ice it was covered by the toe pick leg.
Even if you have HD of the video it is still impossible to tell it right or wrong.
I don't think it is e, at worst it might be ! but we need another camera view to justify that.

 

[skatelikewind1966]

I don't think it was so bad as to be -3.
-1 or -2 seems about right to me, and that appears to be what the judges went with too.

I don't see any problem with that, especially considering the flat/positive GoE awarded to Kihira for a spin with even worse travelling and (arguably) not hitting as many bullet points either. Seems consistent to me.

Great observation, just remember the judges are also looking at how the skater enters the spin (difficuly of entry), how quickly they establish position on the specific element and then how many rotations are completed - there are a required min # of rotations but the more speed equals more rotations equals greater GOE.....Traveling is important as it shows entry was not properly established (regardless of difficulty). At the Junior/Senior level, L3 should be basic but L4 is what gets the most marks.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

It's actually not bad, her score was 57.08, and she definitely did not do her best. Zagitova got 68.09. I am not familiar the how the point system works...all I know is if you fall, you get a one pt. deduction if you rotated your jump fully, as for the rest I have no clue.....so what does she need to do to get a score like Zagitova's? Anyone like to explain?

I can see a 10pt difference for certain. Overall power in presentation, the delivery of the choreography, and commitment and difficulty to the program were glaringly obvious to me. Ashley is a nice skater but noticeably weaker in comparison.

 

[topaz emerald]

Starr and Kaitlyn do not have the same coaches though Kaitlyn and Akira do, which should help both girls continue to improve and feed off of one another (assuming they are both competitive which I think they are). Kaitlyn is on her 3rd coach in 3 years and has changed Regions (now in the West). Gabrielle has also changed to the West making that Region much more competitive. The Midwest therefore loses 2 top skaters opening the door for other skaters, like Kim, who have not been able to make it out of Regionals in past years. Starr will now be put in the ISP (due to her total score at last competition) but Kaitlyn will have to wait until next year to qualify based on age.

I see, do you know why she changed coaches so many times?
Who was Kim competing against that made it so hard for her at regionals? Isn't she only 13?
Starr is 15 already.....
Do you think Kaitlyn will be able to compete at the next US junior nationals in January?

 

[topaz emerald]

I can see a 10pt difference for certain. Overall power in presentation, the delivery of the choreography, and commitment and difficulty to the program were glaringly obvious to me. Ashley is a nice skater but noticeably weaker in comparison.

I respectfully disagree...just watch her long program next, it's completely different from her short. Also, technically, I will give Zagitova the edge because she skates on one foot longer. Artistically, she's not my cup of tea.

 

[topaz emerald]

Oh wow. I'd think the only GOE bullet points Zagitovas layback could get are good speed, good position + more rotation than necessary. 2 is gone, IMO 7 too with too much traveling. I don't see any originality or creativity, it's the general layback, and she loses too much speed in the last position to get point 3. So IMO, that's a +1 GOE without the traveling, with it 0 to -1.

Alisa Lozko. Both her last spins deserved to be +3's to Alina's/Rika's 0s.
(and potentially more other girls too, but I only watched the top 4. Oh, but Marins layback should have arguably gotten her more points compared to Alina too... yes, they scored higher anyway, but just 'higher' doesn't mean the gap is big enough)

I wish I understood the scoring system....I tried, but I didn't understand how they compute the Goe and deductions, or PCs and whatever else....