2017 Four Continents Men SP

[Art&Sport]

I said it all along, deserved or not (pcs) Nathan has a great chance at world gold or at least a medal. I disagree with the scoring system but it is not up to me. PCS are not so important (comparatively folks don't get your skates into a knot) and there is little to distinguish top skills from excellent to very good to good skills. Thus one jump especially a quad obliterates any pc advantage. I really wonder if Chan and Brown are feeling the end is near. Kind of sad because I think those two really are the best pc skaters. Then followed by Hanyu with a gap to Denis Ten and a gap to Javier and Yan and maybe Ge with another gap to Rippon and then yet another gap to Chen et al. But I can tell you that is not the case score wise Crown him medallist if not king of all Nathan Chen Bye bye Chan. Au revoir golden American ponytail boy Brown.

Well, clearly the PCS aspect deals in subjectivity. I would not specifically agree with your rundown re gaps and pecking order on aesthetics. I think it would be helpful if they reviewed the PCS judging parameters and also considered having true performance experts on the judging panel. Of course it's a very mixed bag and very uneven enterprise. That's where the inequities arise. As fans, it's easy to shrug and say don't worry about comparing individual PCS scores, because there's nothing we can do about it. The comparisons though are rather laughable. I realize the scores are averages arrived at after individual judges' scores for each skater are added up. There are many inequities in the judging system, but that's nothing new for figure skating. The thing I try to do is to realize that IJS is basically a crock, and just try to enjoy the skaters' performances as best I can. Look on the bright side as best I can.

That's one of the reasons why I love Jason Brown: his unfailing positive outlook. No one talks about his amazing courage in battling an injury and making the 4CCs and Worlds teams. They only speak about him having trouble mastering quads. The sport will be the lesser if Jason is relegated to the scrap heap because quads are all the rage. The guy is trying so hard, and even when he landed one at SA, they went batshit crazy over-scrutinizing what was a good landing -- it was too close to say he didn't land it. Now that's what I call mean! In the interim, Jin and Hanyu have the cache to be sloppy all over the place and still receive a shitload of points out the wazoo. Hanyu is a strange mixture of brilliance and loosey-goosey sloppiness.

SA was one of Jason's finest performances of the season of his fp. He's an exquisite performer and all-around skater, as well as a feisty, determined competitor. The sport will be the lesser without Jason at Worlds in coming years, should he be unable to make it back, with quad all the rage, and Joshua Farris coming back. There just aren't enough spots available, especially if you have trouble mastering all mighty quad. But being one of the finest all-around skaters with consistent jumping ability and amazing performance skills apparently is not enough.

So as things move forward, we're going to get more cart-before-horse athletes like Boyang Jin, mastering the quads before learning how to skate and how to perform beautifully to the music.

 

[Arriba627]

I would like to take this opportunity to post my remarks from the thread of one of my favorite skaters, Nam from Canada. I would certainly hope these remarks are not construed as mean.

4-14-16
After Nam's skate, he was in the same subway / T car as we were on the way back to the hotel. He looked devastated. Wish I had had the nerve to give him a big hug. He looked like he needed it...Still remember his wonderful performance at Skate America 2014. Keep your head up Nam! Things will get better!

8-1-16
I am really hoping for the best for Nam for the upcoming season. We enjoyed him so much at Skate America in 2014, and he showed so much promise when he won the bronze medal. He looked so sad after Worlds, and I felt so bad for him! I see that he is scheduled for Skate America again this year, so I look forward to cheering him on!

10-20-16
Hooray for Nam! He looked so much better today. He did his FS run through with no jumps, but he had a lot more charisma and maturity than I think we've seen from him in the past. Even his body language was better and he seemed to be saying "I belong here!" instead of looking so dejected like he did in Boston. I am really cheering for him! Go Nam!!!!

10-23-16
Thrilled for Nam. The audience knew the struggles he had been going through, and he was given HUGE applause when he finished his FS. This was a big milestone for him, and I hope it will be a confidence booster for him. He got a big hand during his EX performance too, and his fun personality really started to come through, now that the pressure was off. He's baaaaaaaack!

 

[4everchan]

I said it all along, deserved or not (pcs) Nathan has a great chance at world gold or at least a medal. I disagree with the scoring system but it is not up to me. PCS are not so important (comparatively folks don't get your skates into a knot) and there is little to distinguish top skills from excellent to very good to good skills. Thus one jump especially a quad obliterates any pc advantage. I really wonder if Chan and Brown are feeling the end is near. Kind of sad because I think those two really are the best pc skaters. Then followed by Hanyu with a gap to Denis Ten and a gap to Javier and Yan and maybe Ge with another gap to Rippon and then yet another gap to Chen et al. But I can tell you that is not the case score wise Crown him medallist if not king of all Nathan Chen Bye bye Chan. Au revoir golden American ponytail boy Brown.

i also think the PCS are not working properly to create enough difference between the excellent skaters from the very good ones.... At the same time, the system wasn't created with the idea that in a 2 year span, we would go from elite skaters attempting the quad toe or salchow, sometimes, both, to people coming up with 4-5 quads, including the very exotic lutz, flip and loop.

However, I don't feel badly for Patrick at all. I won't speak about the other skaters you are mentioning because they are the ones really who will be struggling with this new arrival of quadsters. But Patrick has done it all. He has been on top, when actually the system was perfectly balanced for him. Patrick didn't come back to prove himself. He didn't do all this work to maybe win medals. His garage is certainly full of them.... Patrick came back because he had something more to offer and one can see it in his programs. If you cannot appreciate the beauty of his skating, when it's not accompanied by a podium finish, well, that's too bad. I am going to watch the LP tomorrow and hope to see him perform it as well as he did at Nationals. When everyone in an full arena suddenly stands up before even the last seconds of a program, cheering loudly, crying, clapping, screaming and shaking, you know that there is no "bye bye Chan" as you say it... His skating is more important than the scoring system...

Mrs P. thought I was thinking about Patrick when I agreed that PCS are kaput... not really.... I am thinking about other kids... the ones who are growing up, those with coaches who want to win...what will they teach? Quads over edgework.... Tanos over transitions... Donut spins over beautifully extended camels... Patrick is the unique skater he is because his coach Mr. Olson wouldn't play those gimmicks... He taught him how to connect with the ice... with his entire body.... how to emote from the feet.

This is the kind of skating that I hope won't be gone...

There is no bye bye Chan as you say.... =4everchan

 

[Art&Sport]

Indeed at Arriba627, I was happy for Nam at SA, that he was having fun skating to his programs and getting back on course after a devastating season. He's still maturing and finding his way. He can land the quads but he needs to find a way to improve his skating skills in order to gain more speed across the ice. It was lovely seeing how well received he was at Skate America, and how supportive and appreciative the audience was toward him. It was cool seeing a huge smile back on his face.

It's interesting how Nam and Kevin Reynolds are being judged at 4CCs, despite quads. I suppose the judges are saying there are some things both need to work on. Of course they aren't Patrick Chan, but neither is Keiji Tanaka who was ahead of them. I wonder how things will turn out in the fp.

I thought it was rather interesting too how Piper and Paul were so slammed in sd, simply because of the fall. Of course, they lost a lot of points, but I still don't see how they would be placed behind Wang/Liu of China. :shocked: Of course it all changed in the fd, and the judges dropped Hubbell/Donahue to make way for W/P and G/P. There's just so much talent at the top, and apparently the third skater from countries will always get the short end of the stick when it comes to placements.

 

[msteach3]

Whoever said the ladies gave up their clean skates so the men could shine was right. The real test will be with tomorrow's Ladies FS. If they do well, then we can expect a splatfest in the men's FS to compensate.

I hope not! The men overall are far more entertaining with a great variety in programs and super exciting elements. The ladies programs tend to all look the same, and aside from a few of them are a snoozefest compared to the guys. I expect the girls to stumble and the boys to bring it.

 

[tampro1]

Thank you. IMO Chen's presentation is so underrated. I understand that the FS is a jump fest and I personally tend to skip it as well, but this SP is just sublime. He has the most beautiful arms and carriage in the business. And the classicist in me just cannot fight a good ballet program when it's done so well with authenticity, musicality, and flair. That said, I do think he could've skated this program with more "oomph" than he did this time.

I totally agree. He actually hears and skates to the music like someone with years of ballet training and piano lessons. It appears that now that his jumps are consistent, he is able to let the dancer/musician come out. Watch his posture, arms and finger tips. No one currently skates like him and he's only 17! Can't wait to see how he develops. Now that he's a contender, hopefully his rival's uber fans won't spend so much time tearing him down and just enjoy his skating. We're really fortunate as skating fans to have all these contenders.

 

[SarahSynchro]

Perhaps some of you remember this post of mine from the Canadian nationals men's SP event:

Guys, I have devestating news. I have to give my eight year old daughter up for adoption. I know it seems extremely harsh, but her Canadian citizenship is going to be taken away, and when I explain why, you'll understand: after Patrick Chan's score was announced, she turned to me and said: "Mommy, when is that guy who gets the thousands of Pooh stuffies thrown on the ice going to skate? Is he up next? He's really good! What part of Canada is he from?!"

GET OUTTA MY HOUSE AND DON'T COME BACK!

About a months time has passed since she's last mentioned Yuzuru, so I thought she was cured and her deportation was vetoed.

THEN. This morning I was watching the videos of the men's event, and this conversation happened:

"Oh my gosh mom, look! Its that guy with the purple suit who gets all the Pooh stuffies thrown at him! I love this song, can you download it so we can listen to it in the car? He's SO good at skating! What do you mean he botched his jump, it was amazing!!!"

OUT! OUT OF HERE I SAY!!!

So I spent the day listening to Let's Go Crazy on auto loop.

Disclaimer: I may be Chanadian, but I don't actually hate Yuzuru.

 

[bekalc]

i also think the PCS are not working properly to create enough difference between the excellent skaters from the very good ones.... At the same time, the system wasn't created with the idea that in a 2 year span, we would go from elite skaters attempting the quad toe or salchow, sometimes, both, to people coming up with 4-5 quads, including the very exotic lutz, flip and loop.

However, I don't feel badly for Patrick at all. I won't speak about the other skaters you are mentioning because they are the ones really who will be struggling with this new arrival of quadsters. But Patrick has done it all. He has been on top, when actually the system was perfectly balanced for him. Patrick didn't come back to prove himself. He didn't do all this work to maybe win medals. His garage is certainly full of them.... Patrick came back because he had something more to offer and one can see it in his programs. If you cannot appreciate the beauty of his skating, when it's not accompanied by a podium finish, well, that's too bad. I am going to watch the LP tomorrow and hope to see him perform it as well as he did at Nationals. When everyone in an full arena suddenly stands up before even the last seconds of a program, cheering loudly, crying, clapping, screaming and shaking, you know that there is no "bye bye Chan" as you say it... His skating is more important than the scoring system...

Mrs P. thought I was thinking about Patrick when I agreed that PCS are kaput... not really.... I am thinking about other kids... the ones who are growing up, those with coaches who want to win...what will they teach? Quads over edgework.... Tanos over transitions... Donut spins over beautifully extended camels... Patrick is the unique skater he is because his coach Mr. Olson wouldn't play those gimmicks... He taught him how to connect with the ice... with his entire body.... how to emote from the feet.

This is the kind of skating that I hope won't be gone...

There is no bye bye Chan as you say.... =4everchan

It's not quads over edge work. Its both quads and edgework.

Last years GPF programs by Hanyu were probably the best I ever seen. Is Hanyu necessarily have better skating skills than Chan no. But he had excellent skating skills. He had interesting choreography and quads. That's what is possible. It's quads and edges.

It's not one or the other. It takes time to be well rounded and being well rounded may mean your not the best at everything. Chans weaknesses were always his jumps and he made the decision not to go to coaches who could help him with it.

I think Chen has good basics and has all the talent in the world.

 

[skatinggold]

Nathan is a beautiful skater. The lines, the postures, the balletic movements. PCS is so subjective. I just love how he moves on the ice, he is quite an artistic guy. IMO, he deserve higher PCS scores than Shoma, because Shoma's jump was all messy and pre-rotated. They shouldn't even be so close in scores after the short program.

 

[Ice Dance]

I thought it was rather interesting too how Piper and Paul were so slammed in sd, simply because of the fall. Of course, they lost a lot of points, but I still don't see how they would be placed behind Wang/Liu of China.

Think of it this way. The footwork sequences are the quad elements in ice dance. They are worth more points than anything else. You can't fall on them. You can fall on a transition & it will hurt your pride & drop you down a couple spots if you are up against stiff competition. (Or not at all if you are not up against close competition). You can fall on a required element worth fewer points, such as a lift, and it will drop you down--probably below a couple teams lower than those normally considered your close competition. But you cannot fall on a step sequence.

This is how the first-year Shibutanis defeated the reigning European Champions in 2011.

G&P lost other levels in the SD which hurt them. (Sometimes there's a snowball effect when you make a mistake). But the footwork is VITAL.

 

[KatGrace1925]

I hope not! The men overall are far more entertaining with a great variety in programs and super exciting elements. The ladies programs tend to all look the same, and aside from a few of them are a snoozefest compared to the guys. I expect the girls to stumble and the boys to bring it.

This is so true. Ever since I got into men's, the ladies programs have become so dull. I don't think it helps that Medvedeva has had no one who has challenged her lead at the top. The quad before the 2010 olympics had Mao and Yuna, before 2014 there was a lot of interesting switches with Carolina, Mao, Miki and Yuna. Before Medvedeva there were a lot of change ups. Now she has dominated, which has been great but I've been bored with the fact that it seems no other lady can catch her even if they do step up to the plate to fight for their spot. Medvedeva has lost one competition in 2 seasons, that's pretty crazy.

At the same time men's is so stacked with guys who are pushing the envelope in many interesting and different ways. No one person is guaranteed the top spot right now and it is oh so entertaining. Even those guys who are not on top are fun to watch, and the variety of programs is really wide and fun! The ladies need a jolt of energy to make them interesting again because now what I see is girls are copying Medvedeva's moves to try and get on top.

 

[4everchan]

whole post.

sorry but you are not understanding my point... i am not even talking about right now... i am certainly not dismissing hanyu who is extremely good at everything out there.
I am talking about the future of the sport... Hanyu's dominance, who would have thought, is even threatened right now..

Please read my post again with a clear mind, or not

 

[da96103]

What is GRIM?

Gangneung
Rink
Ice
Monster

 

[Jaana]

I'm not going to wade through this thread to see what you all thought as I often do. Sorrynotsorry. Love you guys but no. Did anyone say anything especially funny? I feel like someone should do a recap of threads. The greatest hits version of 4CC. I'm not volunteering.

What about creating a pre-sp and a pre-fs thread from now on for competitions?

 

[OS]

Well, clearly the PCS aspect deals in subjectivity. I would not specifically agree with your rundown re gaps and pecking order on aesthetics. I think it would be helpful if they reviewed the PCS judging parameters and also considered having true performance experts on the judging panel. Of course it's a very mixed bag and very uneven enterprise. That's where the inequities arise. As fans, it's easy to shrug and say don't worry about comparing individual PCS scores, because there's nothing we can do about it. The comparisons though are rather laughable. I realize the scores are averages arrived at after individual judges' scores for each skater are added up. There are many inequities in the judging system, but that's nothing new for figure skating. The thing I try to do is to realize that IJS is basically a crock, and just try to enjoy the skaters' performances as best I can. Look on the bright side as best I can.

That's one of the reasons why I love Jason Brown: his unfailing positive outlook. No one talks about his amazing courage in battling an injury and making the 4CCs and Worlds teams. They only speak about him having trouble mastering quads. The sport will be the lesser if Jason is relegated to the scrap heap because quads are all the rage. The guy is trying so hard, and even when he landed one at SA, they went batshit crazy over-scrutinizing what was a good landing -- it was too close to say he didn't land it. Now that's what I call mean! In the interim, Jin and Hanyu have the cache to be sloppy all over the place and still receive a shitload of points out the wazoo. Hanyu is a strange mixture of brilliance and loosey-goosey sloppiness.

SA was one of Jason's finest performances of the season of his fp. He's an exquisite performer and all-around skater, as well as a feisty, determined competitor. The sport will be the lesser without Jason at Worlds in coming years, should he be unable to make it back, with quad all the rage, and Joshua Farris coming back. There just aren't enough spots available, especially if you have trouble mastering all mighty quad. But being one of the finest all-around skaters with consistent jumping ability and amazing performance skills apparently is not enough.

So as things move forward, we're going to get more cart-before-horse athletes like Boyang Jin, mastering the quads before learning how to skate and how to perform beautifully to the music.

This is a sport, not a personality contest.

If you want to talk about artistry, I found Jason to be both Ham and a Cheese. At most he is a $10 dollar burger but never a $20 dollar steak.
Where as others like Hanyu has shown they are fluid, they are jazz, capable of being both electrifying and riveting than Jason has managed since River Dance at US nationals. Nathen couldn't have risen in a more desperately needed time for the US men. He managed to beat Jason in PCS in the short for the first time. On the current trajectory, he is a leading OGM contender. Also thank goodness Josh is coming back (Aaaa i love him!).

The sport is suppose to have enough breadth for skaters to compete in however they want anyway, TES or PCS, even though clearly PCS is out of wack most of the time and often just don't make much sense. Cart doesn't need horse if it has a powerful engine. It is not like Jason hasn't had his massive dosage shim shimmny shim shiminy shim shim cheer-oo most of his career anyway. Speaking of which Jason should go back to Disney programs, it is more suitable for him.

 

[MaiKatze]

Nathan, Nathan, he’s our man!
He’s ahead of Patrick Chan!

Nathan, Nathan, good for you!
You’re ahead of Yu-zu-ru!

Nathan, Nathan, for the win!
He’s ahead of Boyang Jin!

Nathan, here’s your quad diploma!
You’re ahead of Uno Shoma!

Is Chan rhyming with man? Not to doubt your poetry skills, Mathman. In Germany they always say Patrick ChAn with an A like in ShAmpoo, maybe? And Chen is the one who would rhyme with Man.

 

[4everchan]

Is Chan rhyming with man? Not to doubt your poetry skills, Mathman. In Germany they always say Patrick ChAn with an A like in ShAmpoo, maybe? And Chen is the one who would rhyme with Man.

that poetry is weak indeed

 

[xox]

3 years ago... Nathan has grown too..skating skills and quality were nor emphasized in nyguyen development just jumps but he has no speed or flow going into or out of his jumps. No glide on landing..

 

[humbaba]

Is Chan rhyming with man? Not to doubt your poetry skills, Mathman. In Germany they always say Patrick ChAn with an A like in ShAmpoo, maybe? And Chen is the one who would rhyme with Man.

Chan rhymes with man in IMO.

 

[da96103]

Is Chan rhyming with man? Not to doubt your poetry skills, Mathman. In Germany they always say Patrick ChAn with an A like in ShAmpoo, maybe? And Chen is the one who would rhyme with Man.

If you say 'man' like Rastafarians, 'MARN', you can get it to rhyme with Chan.