2018 US Nats good juveniles, intermediates

[dorispulaski]

If you see them on Icenetwork, or see them in real life, tell us who really impressed you!

VENUES
All Juvenile and Intermediate Events are at Solar4America:

Solar4America Ice at San Jose
1500 S 10th Street / San Jose, CA 95112
​

• Official website
• Icenetwork page
• Schedule
• Detailed Results and Protocols
• Icenetwork Archived Video

ICENETWORK LIVE STREAMING SCHEDULE

SCHEDULED (ALL TIMES EASTERN UTC -5)​

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Time in Other Places​

https://www.timeanddate.com/worldcl...6&p7=352&p8=101&p9=31&p10=136&p11=286&p12=256

Date (mm/dd/yy)	Time (EST)	Event
12/29/2017	12:15pm	Juvenile Girls Free Skate
12/29/2017	1:45pm	Juvenile Boys Free Skate
12/29/2017	3:30pm	Juvenile Pairs Free Skate
12/29/2017	6:00pm	Intermediate Pairs Short Program
12/29/2017	7:45pm	Intermediate Ladies Short Program
12/29/2017	9:30pm	Intermediate Men's Short Program
12/30/2017	5:45pm	Intermediate Pairs Free Skate
12/30/2017	7:45pm	Intermediate Ladies Free Skate
12/30/2017	9:30pm	Intermediate Men's Free Skate
12/30/2017	7:45pm	Intermediate Ladies Free Skate
12/30/2017	5:45pm	Intermediate Pairs Free Skate
12/31/2017	1:45pm	Juvenile Pattern Dance
1/1/2018	12:30pm	Intermediate Pattern Dance
1/1/2018	5:15pm	Juvenile Free Dance
1/2/2018	3:10pm	Intermediate Free Dance

 

[concorde]

Intermediate lady to watch. Haley Scott. Last year she got 3rd as a Juv. She had a dud short at Easterns and had a super long.. I would describe her as a tiny fireball!

Juvenile to watch. Clara Kim. She got 4th (i think) in the solo ice dance earlier this fall. Until May she had Tom Z as her jump coach and then her family moved back to the DC area. So the girl has great SS and jumps.

 

[concorde]

Oh yeah. Hannah Byers is relative newcomer and should not be underestimated. She squeaked into the top 4 at South Atlantic's and then made it through Easterns. Pretty skater that has the full package.

 

[concorde]

I am posting this here because I really don't know where else to post it.

RUMOR: There is a discussion within USFS to eliminate Juvenile and Intermediate at Nationals.

I was told that the reason for the debate was injuries and I do not necessarily disagree. If you look at last years 12 Juv girls, at least 3 did not compete at in Qualifying events this year due to injuries. Was it because training for Nationals extended their season for 2 extra months which is too much on young bodies? Would they have had the same injuries regardless? Not sure of the answer to either.

Years ago, I was told that one of reason for "merging" the two Nationals was time away from their other studies for coaches going to Nationals. If a coach had a skater competing at both, then they had to be gone twice so the argument was made that taking off only once was advantageous. But under the current system, if a coach has both a Juv and a Senior, then they are gone for over 10 straight days.

Another advantage to the elimination of Nationals at those levels is to prevent sandbagging. I watch a lot of skaters that qualify for Sectionals, stay at the level an extra year so that they have an opportunity to go to Nationals. While this benefits the individual skater, it does not benefit USFS. USFS really needs skaters willing to push themselves. (look at the bonus point structure for Novices and below).

Thoughts?

 

[CoyoteChris]

I am posting this here because I really don't know where else to post it.

RUMOR: There is a discussion within USFS to eliminate Juvenile and Intermediate at Nationals.

I was told that the reason for the debate was injuries and I do not necessarily disagree. If you look at last years 12 Juv girls, at least 3 did not compete at in Qualifying events this year due to injuries. Was it because training for Nationals extended their season for 2 extra months which is too much on young bodies? Would they have had the same injuries regardless? Not sure of the answer to either.

Years ago, I was told that one of reason for "merging" the two Nationals was time away from their other studies for coaches going to Nationals. If a coach had a skater competing at both, then they had to be gone twice so the argument was made that taking off only once was advantageous. But under the current system, if a coach has both a Juv and a Senior, then they are gone for over 10 straight days.

Another advantage to the elimination of Nationals at those levels is to prevent sandbagging. I watch a lot of skaters that qualify for Sectionals, stay at the level an extra year so that they have an opportunity to go to Nationals. While this benefits the individual skater, it does not benefit USFS. USFS really needs skaters willing to push themselves. (look at the bonus point structure for Novices and below).

Thoughts?

Good post. Thanks. I, from a fan's perspective, did not like the combo. There seems to be two questions. One, should Junior nats be eliminated or changed in some manner? And two, should the sr. Nats be by itself. I will let others decided the first but the combo of Jr and Sr. Nats has really messed things up for the fans. Conflicts of events, too many venues, too far apart. Too long. And certainly some cities could not bid because of the new constraints of putting on both nats at once, IMHO. We fans always thought that the combo was done to save money. I dont really know but I miss the days when you could see the Novices and the Juniors in an arena and not a rink.

If I were a skater's parent, I think I would like to see my child use my resourses to improve to the novice level, or, if said child could not do that, just skate for fun. There must be tons of bucks being spent by parents in the Juv and inter ranks attending regionals and sectionals and Jr. Nats that could be better spent on lessons to improve to the rank of Novice, while attending local comps....

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I am posting this here because I really don't know where else to post it.

RUMOR: There is a discussion within USFS to eliminate Juvenile and Intermediate at Nationals.

I was told that the reason for the debate was injuries and I do not necessarily disagree. If you look at last years 12 Juv girls, at least 3 did not compete at in Qualifying events this year due to injuries. Was it because training for Nationals extended their season for 2 extra months which is too much on young bodies? Would they have had the same injuries regardless? Not sure of the answer to either.

Years ago, I was told that one of reason for "merging" the two Nationals was time away from their other studies for coaches going to Nationals. If a coach had a skater competing at both, then they had to be gone twice so the argument was made that taking off only once was advantageous. But under the current system, if a coach has both a Juv and a Senior, then they are gone for over 10 straight days.

Another advantage to the elimination of Nationals at those levels is to prevent sandbagging. I watch a lot of skaters that qualify for Sectionals, stay at the level an extra year so that they have an opportunity to go to Nationals. While this benefits the individual skater, it does not benefit USFS. USFS really needs skaters willing to push themselves. (look at the bonus point structure for Novices and below).

Thoughts?

And this is why the Russian ladies are so far ahead of the US ones...
they have so many competitive opportunities!
And they don't add some for US ladies but take them away?! :disapp:

 

[asp11]

I am posting this here because I really don't know where else to post it.

RUMOR: There is a discussion within USFS to eliminate Juvenile and Intermediate at Nationals.

I was told that the reason for the debate was injuries and I do not necessarily disagree. If you look at last years 12 Juv girls, at least 3 did not compete at in Qualifying events this year due to injuries. Was it because training for Nationals extended their season for 2 extra months which is too much on young bodies? Would they have had the same injuries regardless? Not sure of the answer to either.

Years ago, I was told that one of reason for "merging" the two Nationals was time away from their other studies for coaches going to Nationals. If a coach had a skater competing at both, then they had to be gone twice so the argument was made that taking off only once was advantageous. But under the current system, if a coach has both a Juv and a Senior, then they are gone for over 10 straight days.

Another advantage to the elimination of Nationals at those levels is to prevent sandbagging. I watch a lot of skaters that qualify for Sectionals, stay at the level an extra year so that they have an opportunity to go to Nationals. While this benefits the individual skater, it does not benefit USFS. USFS really needs skaters willing to push themselves. (look at the bonus point structure for Novices and below).

Thoughts?

I support the elimination.

 

[cl2]

I am posting this here because I really don't know where else to post it.

RUMOR: There is a discussion within USFS to eliminate Juvenile and Intermediate at Nationals.

I was told that the reason for the debate was injuries and I do not necessarily disagree. If you look at last years 12 Juv girls, at least 3 did not compete at in Qualifying events this year due to injuries. Was it because training for Nationals extended their season for 2 extra months which is too much on young bodies? Would they have had the same injuries regardless? Not sure of the answer to either.

Years ago, I was told that one of reason for "merging" the two Nationals was time away from their other studies for coaches going to Nationals. If a coach had a skater competing at both, then they had to be gone twice so the argument was made that taking off only once was advantageous. But under the current system, if a coach has both a Juv and a Senior, then they are gone for over 10 straight days.

Another advantage to the elimination of Nationals at those levels is to prevent sandbagging. I watch a lot of skaters that qualify for Sectionals, stay at the level an extra year so that they have an opportunity to go to Nationals. While this benefits the individual skater, it does not benefit USFS. USFS really needs skaters willing to push themselves. (look at the bonus point structure for Novices and below).

Thoughts?

Regarding sandbangging, I don't agree it necessarily holds back a skater's improvement, even if that skater is ready to move up. Instead, you'll just end up with Juv competitors with triple salchows. The Juv event becomes a competition of precociousness, rather than of skating level per se. The real problem with sandbangging is, IMO, there's no way the average Juv skater can compete against sandbaggers, so they get less competitive and developmental opportunities.

 

[concorde]

Regarding sandbangging, I don't agree it necessarily holds back a skater's improvement, even if that skater is ready to move up. Instead, you'll just end up with Juv competitors with triple salchows. The Juv event becomes a competition of precociousness, rather than of skating level per se. The real problem with sandbangging is, IMO, there's no way the average Juv skater can compete against sandbaggers, so they get less competitive and developmental opportunities.

Juv are limited to double only, no triple jumps are allowed. So you won't see juv competitors doing any triples in a juv competition. Which further emphasizes your last comment about sandbaggers "getting less competitive and developmental activities."

L

 

[cl2]

Juv are limited to double only, no triple jumps are allowed. So you won't see juv competitors doing any triples in a juv competition. Which further emphasizes your last comment about sandbaggers "getting less competitive and developmental activities."

L

I'm not saying that they put triples in their competitive programs, but I see some Juvs at my rink training good quality triples. Whatever the case, it seems that we both agree sandbagging has more downsides than positives.

 

[concorde]

The issue is that once these top girls get a clean double axle, it tends to be quickly followed by a couple of triple. So what you are seeing is quite common with top Juvs. I also saw it at my rink both last year and this year.

Last year I even saw top Juv doing triples in their intermediate shorts. Uncommon bit not unheard of.

 

[CoyoteChris]

And this is why the Russian ladies are so far ahead of the US ones...
they have so many competitive opportunities!
And they don't add some for US ladies but take them away?! :disapp:

I would like to hear from others that skate. Would makes a country strong in a skating disipline? Is it more comps or is it support of all types for those that show promise, coupled with a national interest in the sport?

 

[concorde]

Having a daughter that competed at Juv level last year and the Intermediate level this year, I think the girl qualifying system is broken at these levels.

As I see it, there are too many girls competing for too few spots. The problem is that success at these levels does not necessarily translate into future success. These are young girls, they still have to face puberty and they may decide that ice skating is no longer for them for a variety of reasons that may have nothing to do with body type (i.e., boys, parents ran out of money, different interests, etc.).

Now put that into the context of the current qualifying structure. Big regions have 100+ girls competing at both the Juv and Intermediate levels. With only 12 spots open for Nationals and 9 Regions, that means only about 1 girl per regional will make it to Nationals. So about 1% chance of making Nationals.

If I remember the old system correctly, something like 8 girls per Region qualified for Jr. Nationals (girls went from Regionals to Nationals). So about 8% could reach Nationals. Those are much better odds.

But do girls gain from having an 1 or 2 extra competitions a year? I think getting to Sectionals and or Nationals is a huge motivator. Also girls that reach those levels gain experience which is different from the experience they get from a typical summer competition. So the answer is yes.

In summary, I think there is a benefit to having them but only if there is a way to get more girls involved. Under our system, I doubt Med or Zag would have made it to Nationals as a Juv, Intermediate or even Novice since neither were great skaters at those levels.

 

[Ice Dance]

Many of the novice events were held in a separate venue prior to the addition of juveniles & intermediates. And, in my experience, it is actually nicer for the young athletes to compete in a smaller venue. The crowd is usually so spread out in a big arena that the response feels minimal even when more people attend. But when the crowd is together in a smaller area, you have a strong sense of how enthusiastic & supportive the audience can be.

That said, having backs on the seats is also very significant for encouraging a good crowd. I think you will still need two rinks, and it is difficult to find cities that have two close together so travel is very often going to be an issue if you wish to see athletes competing in both locations.

My guess is that some of the arguments for moving the events close together just didn't pan out. That perhaps it turned out to be more expensive, rather than less. Maybe more of a hassle for some coaches--moving between venues & trying to tackle everything at multiple levels of competition rather than splitting it up. Most of the younger athletes don't really get the chance to see the senior athletes, as families can't afford to stay & take off work for such an extended period of time. You can definitely see how it might be easier having the events together in some ways and for some people and yet more difficult/challenging in and for others.

I find the argument that more athletes were invited to attend juveniles before to be an interesting one and a good argument for separation; but is returning to those numbers actually under discussion? Or just dividing the competitions?

 

[concorde]

I find the argument that more athletes were invited to attend juveniles before to be an interesting one and a good argument for separation; but is returning to those numbers actually under discussion? Or just dividing the competitions?

There is a RUMOR the Nationals for Juv and Intermediates may be discontinued. What I was told and why is early on in the thread.

 

[Scout]

I agree that injury prevention doesn`t seem like a good reason to eliminate junior nationals. The kids are going to train no matter what.

As for sandbagging - maybe Juv and Int need to be split by age group so that more kids get opportunities? So something like: 8&under, 9, 10, 11+ for Juv (as a random suggestion to illustrate the point; I don`t know what the actual age distribution is or what would make the most sense). Because obviously the 11 year old with a solid 2A but no triples will prevent the 8yo who lacks the 2A and the maturity of the 11yo of getting to nationals, but it is the 8 yo who has more long term potential (I’d imagine it would typically be hard for an 11yo with only a 2A to be competitive in 2 years time against someone like Trusova or Scherbakova or any other top Russian; hence Juv not being a good predictor of future success).

I guess it depends on the goal: prevent injuries, coaching time, cost efficiencies, long term development of athletes, etc.

One last random thought: Assuming they stay for the whole comp, I think it`s nice that the juv and int skaters get to see their idols compete or even just practice.

 

[dorispulaski]

The Juveniles and Intermediates start competing today! Start orders are up!

Venue:
Solar4America

Dec 29
9:10 AM Juvenile Girls / Free Skate Start order
10:45 AM Juvenile Boys / Free Skate Start order
12:30 PM Juvenile Pairs / Free Skate Start order
3:00 PM Intermediate Pairs / Short Program Start order
4:45 PM Intermediate Ladies / Short Program Start order
6:30 PM Intermediate Men / Short Program Start order

 

[dorispulaski]

Juvenile Pair

Natasha Mishkutionok, Dallas FSC/Daniel Tioumentsev, Albuquerque

Is Natasha the child of Natalia?

 

[Ice Dance]

Is Natasha the child of Natalia?

Yes.

 

[theoreticalgirl]

As for sandbagging - maybe Juv and Int need to be split by age group so that more kids get opportunities? So something like: 8&under, 9, 10, 11+ for Juv (as a random suggestion to illustrate the point; I don`t know what the actual age distribution is or what would make the most sense). Because obviously the 11 year old with a solid 2A but no triples will prevent the 8yo who lacks the 2A and the maturity of the 11yo of getting to nationals, but it is the 8 yo who has more long term potential (I’d imagine it would typically be hard for an 11yo with only a 2A to be competitive in 2 years time against someone like Trusova or Scherbakova or any other top Russian; hence Juv not being a good predictor of future success).

There is already an age cutoff for Juv skaters (singles is 14, pairs/dance is 16; singles moves down to 13 in Feb '18).

There are age divisions in the Adult competition structure (at least in non-qual events), so it wouldn't be an entirely out of place. With that said, when there aren't enough skaters for an age, they all compete as a group, which I would image would be the case were this instituted here.

I think the reality is that you're just going to see different physical capabilities at skaters of different ages, sandbagging or not. From my personal experience, sandbaggers do not last long, as they tend get bored with the complacency and motivate themselves enough to advance forward.