2018 Worlds Mens Free Skate

[chopinskate]

I don't want to bring in Boyang because it's irrelevant. This FS is only the second time Nathan skates a no fall 6 quads program this season and his
entire senior career. The 1st time he did it in the Olympic, he's in the 2nd group, two groups away from the final group, and he got 87+ PCS which actually is only 3 points more than his 2016 GPF LP ("only" 4 squeaky-clean quads and they all in the 1st half).

Why is it irrelevant? I could use the exact same arguments as you did in Nathan's case in his debut season and argue Boyang should have received higher PCS in his debut season, based on just quads.

Don't tell me the skating order, the TEC difficulty and the reputation, (many people also want to bring up the power of the federation) shouldn't affect the PCS.

It shouldn't. Moving the goalpost isn't fine, and corruption isn't fine, especially with the fed point. You could have written "doesn't" there, and I would've agreed.

As long as the judging is by people, no matter how the rule changes, to reach an absolute consistency and objectivity is beyond reality.
Every athlete and their team can decide if they want to just working on nothing but quads to have a 6-quad program so that they can have
90+ PCS.:sarcasm:

PS. Nathan to me is not just about quads.

As I've said, and as Yatagarasu has said, the ISU is free to come out and say it, instead of applying varying standards.

PS: Doesn't matter.

 

[chopinskate]

Yeah, no.

What we need is ISU coming out and saying this, officially in the rules. So that we don't get one standard for Boyang and another for Nathan because one has China to his name and the other one has USA.

What is the problem? If the ISU wants the correlation of number of quads and PCS, then come out and say it. But they don't want that. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They say they want well rounded skaters and then promptly ignore that when the flag next to the skater's name suits them. When it doesn't, we're back to work on this, work on that. So if you want equal treatment for everyone, I don't see what's the issue with outright stating things in the rules.

Though, really, at this point we could just be posting in response for all it's affecting people's opinions.

 

[Metis]

Yeah, no.

What we need is ISU coming out and saying this, officially in the rules. So that we don't get one standard for Boyang and another for Nathan because one has China to his name and the other one has USA.

What is the problem? If the ISU wants the correlation of number of quads and PCS, then come out and say it. But they don't want that. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They say they want well rounded skaters and then promptly ignore that when the flag next to the skater's name suits them. When it doesn't, we're back to work on this, work on that. So if you want equal treatment for everyone, I don't see what's the issue with outright stating things in the rules.

Preach.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Though, really, at this point we could just be posting in response for all it's affecting people's opinions.

Indeed. Gosh, this is an old discussion, two seasons now, ever since Nathan started getting PCS through the roof. It actually amuses me at this point because there's an interesting side to it. Simply put, the question is then, do they actually believe in Nathan or that he is as superior as they claim?

If they did, then there would be no issues with arguing the exact same side as we are, which is to simply state in the rules the direct correlation of quad numbers and PCS rise. The only thing that could prevent them from this, is if they actually don't think Nathan can then win. This state of ambiguity suits them, or rather, they believe it suits him, in order to win medals.

It's hilarious that when everything is pushed aside, that is what it boils down to, no faith in him. If he's the Quad King, then let the Quad King win under rules that are equal to all. Surely a King should be capable of it :confused2:

 

[ltc]

look the same to me, please point out the different.... tell me where the watered down part is?

As a person who spends 80% of their time on this forum reading Nathan's FF, even I agree that he has lost many choreographic details over the course of the season, and subsequently that 91.84 PCS was definitely generous. Maybe try watching two of them side by side? Say, Rostelecom versus Olys or Worlds.

 

[chopinskate]

Indeed. Gosh, this is an old discussion, two seasons now, ever since Nathan started getting PCS through the roof. It actually amuses me at this point because there's an interesting side to it. Simply put, the question is then, do they actually believe in Nathan or that he is as superior as they claim?

If they did, then there would be no issues with arguing the exact same side as we are, which is to simply state in the rules the direct correlation of quad numbers and PCS rise. The only thing that could prevent them from this, is if they actually don't think Nathan can then win. This state of ambiguity suits them, or rather, they believe it suits him, in order to win medals.

It's hilarious that when everything is pushed aside, that is what it boils down to, no faith in him. If he's the Quad King, then let the Quad King win under rules that are equal to all. Surely a King should be capable of it :confused2:

But the propaganda that he's so artistic! So much money spent on it!

And then the USFSA will have to come out as the ones behind it, when Johnny and Tara said how non-artistic Boyang was during the 2016 CoC! How could they?!

We can't have that! It wasn't fine when they didn't have a quadster, but now it's fine, and it's good enough to get 91 PCS!

 

[georgia]

As a fan of Nathan, I am happy to see how many posters express their dislike to his skating, especially in the moments before he lands his quads, like there is another way to prepare for them, and how he is over analyzed and scrutinized..and I say..oh good, Nathan has arrived! It’s Human nature to really disapprove the competition.
Another point I want to make. If fans wish skating to remain an Olympic sport, they must pray it gets more athletic. We now have a female skater with two quads in her arsenal. Imagine that! ISU considers changes to the existing system why?to accommodate whom? The skaters? If they can’t handle the quads maybe they should choose another sport. The fans? There is always stars on ice or other type of skating shows. Or maybe they should consider a non Olympic caliber competition at Nationals, for those who want to focus on the artist side, and that’s ok, because that’s beautiful too, and maybe fans will run to fill the arenas. But please ISU , let the athletes who want to continuously Improve technically,do so. JMHO

 

[Yatagarasu]

But the propaganda that he's so artistic! So much money spent on it!

Pft. Skating Nureyev needs no propaganda!

 

[Kelly]

Why is it irrelevant? I could use the exact same arguments as you did in Nathan's case in his debut season and argue Boyang should have received higher PCS in his debut season, based on just quads.

Because I was talking about if Nathan's LP here is worthy of 90+ PCS or not compared to Shoma's and Mikhail's.

It shouldn't. Moving the goalpost isn't fine, and corruption isn't fine, especially with the fed point. You could have written "doesn't" there, and I would've agreed.

I just tell what I see things. You don't have to agree with me.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

Is Vincent capable of putting two clean programs together back to back?
He really seems to have consistency problems and when he misses his jumps the program doesn't have much else in it.

 

[Metis]

As a person who spends 80% of their time on this forum reading Nathan's FF, even I agree that he has lost many choreographic details over the course of the season, and subsequently that 91.84 PCS was definitely generous. Maybe try watching two of them side by side? Say, Rostelecom versus Olys or Worlds.

I’m a fan of Nathan’s as well. There’s the fight over absolute values, but just look at his PCS marks relative to others’ at this Worlds: according to the judges, Nathan would win in figures against the entire field.

This is what I mean when I say I’m a fan and these numbers strain credulity. I can’t make a good-faith argument for Nathan’s skating skills mark being that high. It wasn’t demonstrated in his free skate, and skaters who did demonstrate superior SS certainly weren’t rewarded with the appropriate mark in that component.

That’s not an “inflation over time” problem: that’s a “could you please Google discreet before padding marks” one.

 

[dalenofff]

OK! Then Nathan deserved 74 there, and 77 here.

If you can't see for yourself what has happened to his programs through the season, and want him to get a boost of 3 PCS in the WCs just because someone else did at some other point, and want to say his program at the GPF was just as empty as it was here, then that's the way it would be scored.

so you have can't produce and now misdirect.. sad... bottom line is you have two standards, those you like can have whatever gain the judges give and those you don't like you say over scores and doesn't deserver because... (insert whatever excuse you want to use) ... thanks for playing

 

[Old Cat Lady]

so you have can't produce and now misdirect.. ... thanks for playing

I actually did as Itc suggested and looked at the Rostelecom performance. The difference is quite drastic - when I timed the basic skating and posing, there's about 40 seconds less than his Olympic performance. But most of the difference is in his upper body which isn't necessarily reflected in the time difference. There's a lot more upper body movement to the music and his face is more expressive. Granted none of the additional content is difficult but overall it's a much more complete program.

Though this argument is moot to me - the only thing that justifies increased pcs without a change in content/performance for anyone is if the judges realized they made a mistake in previous scoring. That being said, there's normally an increase in performance quality as a skater gets used to a program

 

[chopinskate]

so you have can't produce and now misdirect.. sad... bottom line is you have two standards, those you like can have whatever gain the judges give and those you don't like you say over scores and doesn't deserver because... (insert whatever excuse you want to use) ... thanks for playing

I can actually. I'm not going to lead the blind. Thanks for not even showing up.

 

[TontoK]

While there seems to be a question in some contributors' minds regarding the PCS for this competition, there is a remarkable consistency among the actual judges of the competition.

In particular, the notion of nationalistic scoring bias doesn't hold up when the protocols are examined.

Nathan won the PCS for ever category when added across judges. Moreover, he was scored as the PCS winner by all individual judges when their total PCS scores are added. True, a judge or two may have scored another better at some single aspect of PCS, but not overall.

He won every category, and he won every judge. That seems definitive.

 

[shine]

Why is it irrelevant? I could use the exact same arguments as you did in Nathan's case in his debut season and argue Boyang should have received higher PCS in his debut season, based on just quads.

Actually no. Boyang should not have received higher PCS in his debut season because his posture, musicality, body awareness and movement quality are all far below Nathan, so the two cases are not comparable.

 

[chopinskate]

While there seems to be a question in some contributors' minds regarding the PCS for this competition, there is a remarkable consistency among the actual judges of the competition.

In particular, the notion of nationalistic scoring bias doesn't hold up when the protocols are examined.

Nathan won the PCS for ever category when added across judges. Moreover, he was scored as the PCS winner by all individual judges when their total PCS scores are added. True, a judge or two may have scored another better at some single aspect of PCS, but not overall.

He won every category, and he won every judge. That seems definitive.

Nationalistic scoring bias? I think most people here are arguing how the PCS score isn't what is to be expected for the level of skating exhibited, even on a non-technical, "artistic" level. He might have won every category and every judge, but that doesn't mean that the PCS, by the ISU's own standards, was served correctly.

The "nationalistic bias" is being argued across seasons -- where a 4 quad program was hammered for being low on PCS (fairly), a 6 quad program, equally empty on the PCS side, is being held up.

 

[TontoK]

Nationalistic scoring bias? I think most people here are arguing how the PCS score isn't what is to be expected for the level of skating exhibited, on a non-technical, "artistic" level. He might have won every category and every judge, but that doesn't mean that the PCS, by the ISU's own standards, was served correctly.

The "nationalistic bias" is being argued across seasons -- where a 4 quad program was hammered for being low on PCS (fairly), a 6 quad program, equally empty on the PCS side, is being held up.

I guess in this dispute I'm going to side with all nine trained and qualified ISU judges, from all over the world, who scored the men's event, at least regarding this competition.

I just don't see the fight here. The artiest skater in the world just isn't that arty when half the program is spent sliding across the ice on his backside.

 

[ramed]

I'm late to this fest of life, but suddenly I realized that Alexandra Trusova with her junior worlds 2018 FS (TES 92.35, one jumping pass less than men's FS) would probably overscore Shoma (2nd highest TES, 94.65) and Kazuki Tomono (3rd highest TES, 94.40) had she been allowed that single extra jumping pass. Guys you've no room for error anymore!..

 

[viennaskater]

The penultimate group skated better than the top group (apart from Nathan of course).