2018 Worlds Mens Free Skate

[viennaskater]

Omg that jumping ending

Julian is so good! So good!

I loved him right at the start of the season (qualifying for Olympics at Nebelhorn Trophy) and I love him now!!! GREAT THAT HE MADE IT HERE TOO!

 

[Skater Boy]

Nathan deserved his win but the win clearly defines where skating is going with the quads. The pcs don't really matter First there is little to differentiate the good from the great. Even if you gave a skaer 1 pt over another skater in pcs in every category one 1 quad jump easily cancels that out. The quad is worth somuch over a triple even it really means you need multiple quads to compete. And I give nathan credit for improving his pcs but honestly if you like the jumps then well this is the route; if you like a little more blaanced its not. I feel for Shoma though it wasn't close. Second again - pretty frustrating. Good job by Kolyada for bronze and Bychenko holding onto fourth. Wow Boyang and Vincent had their medal chance and blew it. Of course many will say Max is the hero ssaving three spots after Vincent's implosion. Poor Vinny but at least Vinny is very young and will bounce back. Impressed by Keegan Messing - nice program.

 

[Ares]

While there seems to be a question in some contributors' minds regarding the PCS for this competition, there is a remarkable consistency among the actual judges of the competition.

In particular, the notion of nationalistic scoring bias doesn't hold up when the protocols are examined.

Nathan won the PCS for ever category when added across judges. Moreover, he was scored as the PCS winner by all individual judges when their total PCS scores are added. True, a judge or two may have scored another better at some single aspect of PCS, but not overall.

He won every category, and he won every judge. That seems definitive.

But out complaints have nothing to do with Nationalistic scoring but with their (judges) delusion that he deserves 9s in PCS category. "That seems definitive" is a very dismissive take on that, we just point out at clear problems with scoring when someone with empty skating and crossovers galore receives almost the same marks for that as someone like Patrick Chan or Yuzuru Hanyu ... Chen and Jin are clearly not held to the same standard as SP result highlighted (both tech calls and judging).

The fact that they scored him the highest in those categories is a by-product of him landing 6 quadruples after all these epic meltdowns in last FS etc, and them generally being nuts.

 

[TontoK]

But out complaints have nothing to do with Nationalistic scoring but with their (judges) delusion that he deserves 9s in PCS category. "That seems definitive" is a very dismissive take on that, we just point out at clear problems with scoring when someone with empty skating and crossovers galore receives almost the same marks for that as someone like Patrick Chan or Yuzuru Hanyu ...

There are references to how judges score PCS... and it specifically mentions the flag of the competitor/judge as a determining (perhaps it was contributing) factor.

If I've misread that, or if that is a minority view, then I own my error and apologize.

Still, I think this is an odd competition to fight this battle. Chen was clearly the class of the field, and the argument centers around a competitor who has retired and others who didn't compete.

As to raw score, I go back to the protocols. It's not as if a single judge scored Chen much higher or much lower than other judges... there was a great deal of consistency among all nine judges as to raw score for PCS elements.

Stating the obvious is not meant to be dismissive. 9 judges x 5 PCS categories = 45 scoring opportunities. Nathan hit 9.00 or better 38 times, and the low score awarded by any judge in any category was 8.50.

While contributors to the board (whose opinions I genuinely respect) may argue the worth of the program, the judges were remarkably consistent. If the scoring was wrong, then they all bought into it.

 

[xeyra]

The fact that they scored him the highest in those categories is a by-product of him landing 6 quadruples after all these epic meltdowns in last FS etc, and them generally being nuts.

I mean, I understand the judges, really; Nathan was the only one skating well in that last group, they must have been ecstatic the World Champion wasn't an absolute mess and in fact wiped the floor with the competition by landing 6 quads, I'd probably have thrown a bonus somewhere too. But at some point this enthusiasm must meet some kind of actual reality of what the scores should entail and what the skater really does and earns.

If I look at the scores for Nathan's SS, I'm being told he has outstanding skating skills, on par with Patrick or Shoma's at the Olympics and only slightly below Javi's. They are different competitions with different judging panels, yes, but a 9-9.50 should still mean the same regardless of competition. And I apologise if this comes across as 'hating' on Nathan, it's not my intention, but I'm not quite sure I consider him a skater that has the quality for mid to high 9s in his skating skills. At least not with the programs he has produced and the way he has skated them, particularly his quad-heavy FS, unless SS equates being able to land all of your quads. Same for TR scoring. Because in the end, the stability he obtains in order to land all of his 6 quads is partly at the expense of this particular category.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Nathan won the PCS for ever category when added across judges. Moreover, he was scored as the PCS winner by all individual judges when their total PCS scores are added. True, a judge or two may have scored another better at some single aspect of PCS, but not overall.

He won every category, and he won every judge. That seems definitive.

*deep breath*

This line of reasoning is constantly used and highly flawed. The judges' scores are very distorted and even meaningless at times. They inherently overscore the top skaters and "follow the herd", and are poor at evaluating each category, not just in terms of what each category is supposed to be separately, but also in terms of a more comprehensive evaluation of what the scores are supposed to mean.

Even if Nathan did deserve to win each component at this competition, that doesn't mean the scores were correct on a broader scale. No way did Shoma's mess deserve 88 and Nathan at nearly 92 is far too generous as well. With a mere 8 points of possible room left on the PCS, it sends a message of "don't think about that aspect so much, because you won't win a competition on PCS anymore even if you are the best pure skater, with the most difficult transitions ever, and the most expressive and creative and emotional program ever." People are being told they need 4 quads at minimum in order to ever beat a performance like this. To me that is wrong. In my opinion a program with 1 quad should theoretically be possible to match Nathan's score (given that I feel Nathan's score was about 15 points too high), if this theoretical program had the highest quality technical elements and truly was one of the best programs and performances ever.

 

[WineHerUp]

I mean, I understand the judges, really; Nathan was the only one skating well in that last group, they must have been ecstatic the World Champion wasn't an absolute mess and in fact wiped the floor with the competition by landing 6 quads, I'd probably have thrown a bonus somewhere too. But at some point this enthusiasm must meet some kind of actual reality of what the scores should entail and what the skater really does and earns.

If I look at the scores for Nathan's SS, I'm being told he has outstanding skating skills, on par with Patrick or Shoma's at the Olympics and only slightly below Javi's. They are different competitions with different judging panels, yes, but a 9-9.50 should still mean the same regardless of competition. And I apologise if this comes across as 'hating' on Nathan, it's not my intention, but I'm not quite sure I consider him a skater that has the quality for mid to high 9s in his skating skills. At least not with the programs he has produced and the way he has skated them, particularly his quad-heavy FS, unless SS equates being able to land all of your quads. Same for TR scoring. Because in the end, the stability he obtains in order to land all of his 6 quads is partly at the expense of this particular category.

All of this. I can accept judges giving Nathan a boost in Performance/Execution and maybe Interpretation (I'll give him interpretation bc it's the most subjective category so there's tons of wiggle room) but there's no way he should be receiving the type of scores that he received for SS and Transitions. The PCS boost for skating a clean program should only be applicable towards P/E and I. Performing a clean program doesn't mean that your SS suddenly improved overnight or that previously non-existent transitions are now a part of your program. Nathan should only be slightly higher than Vincent in those categories and nowhere near Yuzu, Patrick, Shoma, or Javi.

 

[Mathman]

While there seems to be a question in some contributors' minds regarding the PCS for this competition, there is a remarkable consistency among the actual judges of the competition. ...

In my opinion that is the problem, or at least a symptom of whatever the problem might be.

Did Nathan Chen really have better choreography than Kazuki Tomono?

Did he really have more transitions and of better quality than Misha Ge?

Yes, all nine judges said so with their marks. To me, this shows that the ISU judges are following some unwritten and unacknowledged scoring conventions that are not actually in the published rules about how these components should be scored.

Transitions, for example, can be counted and characterized fairly objectively. The skater either did a counter or he didn't. It is not the "opinion" of the judges. And yet, all the judges saw a lot of transitions in Nathan's program. (?)

 

[Ice Dance]

4Lz, 4F, 4F+2T, 4T, 4T+2T, 4S.

4T+3T

Someone else probably fixed this already, but I haven't plowed through the last 10 pages. And am afraid I am too tired to do so tonight.

 

[Arriba627]

Excuses again

Wrong. Even Nathan acknowledged in the press conference that they could all see during the week's practices that Shoma was injured. I doubt that he would fall all week in practice just to fake an injury...And your way of dissing Shoma seems very familiar, but I can't quite figure out who you are.

 

[Lester]

In my opinion that is the problem, or at least a symptom of whatever the problem might be.

Did Nathan Chen really have better choreography than Kazuki Tomono?

Did he really have more transitions and of better quality than Misha Ge?

Yes, all nine judges said so with their marks. To me, this shows that the ISU judges are following some unwritten and unacknowledged scoring conventions that are not actually in the published rules about how these components should be scored.

Transitions, for example, can be counted and characterized fairly objectively. The skater either did a counter or he didn't. It is not the "opinion" of the judges. And yet, all the judges saw a lot of transitions in Nathan's program. (?)

Maybe to some extent it is easier to judge skaters in the same group relative to each other, than to compare Nathan to Misha who probably skated like an hour before him for the judges. I don't even know if they have the marks they already gave to everyone who skated before on their displays.

 

[Mathman]

Maybe to some extent it is easier to judge skaters in the same group relative to each other, than to compare Nathan to Misha who probably skated like an hour before him for the judges. I don't even know if they have the marks they already gave to everyone who skated before on their displays.

Well, that's kind of the point. The judges should not be comparing Nathan against Misha. They should be comparing Nathan to to the published judging criteria. Was Nathan's choreography a 9? Were Nathan's transitions a 9? (Variety, difficulty, intricacy, quality.)

Ge should be judged against the same the same criteria, independently of other skaters.

Maybe this is impossible. If so, then the ISU should stop pretending and go back to 6.0.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I guess in this dispute I'm going to side with all nine trained and qualified ISU judges, from all over the world, who scored the men's event, at least regarding this competition.

I just don't see the fight here. The artiest skater in the world just isn't that arty when half the program is spent sliding across the ice on his backside.

Not to be mean, but that part always reads like "I'm out of actual arguments why that skating should have got those PCS/GOE, I'll just bring up the judges are ~trained~ and ~qualifed~" for me. Because, by all accounts of having logic, eyes and some respect for figure skating, Nathans scores are unjustifiable. (I'm not saying he's the only one, scoring is all over the place, but it's obviously a pretty hot example)

Nathan delivered his tech and deserved his win 100%, but the score is so OTT I don't even know where to start. And yes it is a problem, because in figure skating reputation matters (sadly) and this will set a precedent on how he will be scored in the future.

The best PCS of the evening should have IMO gone to Deniss. His skating skills were easily among the best (I'd rate him the highest out of everyone here tbh), and his performance was the best of the night: great feel for the music, energy and projection. Yet the judges put him nearly 8 points behind Nathan. Reality what art thou.

 

[Lester]

Well, that's kind of the point. The judges should not be comparing Nathan against Misha. They should be comparing Nathan to to the published judging criteria. Was Nathan's choreography a 9? Were Nathan's transitions a 9? (Variety, difficulty, intricacy, quality.)

Ge should be judged against the same the same criteria, independently of other skaters.

Maybe this is impossible. If so, then the ISU should stop pretending and go back to 6.0.

Yes, it would be nice if PCS were to be used that way, however, their steady inflation in recent memory suggests that favourites get 9s like candy and middle tier skaters get a range of middling marks, mostly due to reputation. At the Olympics Adam Rippon got better PCS than Keegan Messing for instance, even if in my opinion his skating skills are weaker, his choreo and transitions way less complex and his jump layout easier.

 

[Arriba627]

. I'm afraid Yuzuru won't be allowed to retire (one day) :shame:

 

[BillNeal]

Dropped by to say, if some of these skates are getting 9's, would this get 11's? They don't do step sequences like 10 years ago, do they?

 

[boo69]

Don’t know if someone already posted it but here’s the link to the press conference:

https://youtu.be/S3VCwmExAx0

I just love to see Kolyada so happy, he can hardly stop smiling

I think that Nathan knowing that his close competitors did not perform well, relieved some of the pressure off of him, thus allowing him to relax and perform well. I don't know if he would have performed that well if his close competitors had the skate of their life.

 

[edenlover]

Dropped by to say, if some of these skates are getting 9's, would this get 11's? They don't do step sequences like 10 years ago, do they?

Where's the time for them to do beautiful step sequences like in the past? I miss them, too, but honestly, these jumps require so much speed that beautiful step sequences are a fine art. One of the best ever is Michelle Kwan's in her 1996 flamenco short program -she's wearing the red dress with sleeves. Miss those!

 

[champs]

While there seems to be a question in some contributors' minds regarding the PCS for this competition, there is a remarkable consistency among the actual judges of the competition.

In particular, the notion of nationalistic scoring bias doesn't hold up when the protocols are examined.

Nathan won the PCS for ever category when added across judges. Moreover, he was scored as the PCS winner by all individual judges when their total PCS scores are added. True, a judge or two may have scored another better at some single aspect of PCS, but not overall.

He won every category, and he won every judge. That seems definitive.

In my opinion that is the problem, or at least a symptom of whatever the problem might be.

Did Nathan Chen really have better choreography than Kazuki Tomono?

Did he really have more transitions and of better quality than Misha Ge?

Yes, all nine judges said so with their marks. To me, this shows that the ISU judges are following some unwritten and unacknowledged scoring conventions that are not actually in the published rules about how these components should be scored.

I concur. I also brought this up in a different thread some time ago because it's been one of the biggest mysteries of judging in figure skating in my eyes.

Transitions, for example, can be counted and characterized fairly objectively. The skater either did a counter or he didn't. It is not the "opinion" of the judges. And yet, all the judges saw a lot of transitions in Nathan's program. (?)

For this one, I can't say what should be the ranking of the skaters in the TR component since I never count the number of transitions in each skater's program as I watch them. But then, do judges actually count them at all? While they have to fulfill other tasks such as determining GOEs and appreciating the overall artistic aspect of the skater's performance at the same time? I seriously doubt any single judge does that. And, to me, that's why it’s surprising that most of the time all judges agree in the ranking of TR mark as well.

On a related note, with the realtime-updated TES counter displayed on the screen for the ISU events now, it amazes me just how quick judges determine the GOE they want to give to an element that has just been executed. Within a second or two of any jump landing we already see the tentative average GOE appear and start to fluctuate, meaning multiple judges have already checked each item on the "checklist" of positive and negative qualities that's in the ISU rulebook that they have known by heart, totaled them and divided that by two, and entered the mark on their input device. I can't help but thinking either these quick judges are doing half-baked jobs, or "following some unwritten and unacknowledged scoring conventions" if you let me borrow your words.

 

[Mathman]

Dropped by to say, if some of these skates are getting 9's, would this get 11's? They don't do step sequences like 10 years ago, do they?

Marvelous. Beginning to end, this performance is one of the great masterpieces of men's figure skating.

If they ever do the cartoon "Santa Claus is Coning to Town" on ice, they've got to get Jeffrey to play the lead. Put one foot in front o---f the other!

http://www.animationmagazine.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/santatown480-4.jpg

Where's the time for them to do beautiful step sequences like in the past? I miss them, too, but honestly, these jumps require so much speed that beautiful step sequences are a fine art. One of the best ever is Michelle Kwan's in her 1996 flamenco short program -she's wearing the red dress with sleeves. Miss those!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1imuQWeIi4Q

Not that there is anything to complain about in the double Axel and sit spin just preceding the step sequence!