2022 European Championships: Pairs Free Skate

[LadyB]

Don't mind me while I'm dancing around! See yous tomorrow!

 

[flanker]

Justice is never a narrow matters ...

Not justice, just ignorance of the rules on your side.

 

[Gourlie]

I love that Sasha is so introverted person, but when he steps to the ice he become such a diva.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Look into the rules. Hand on the ice is an error different from a fall. Nevertheless, sorry this is a time to cheer three magnificent pairs, not to argue about narrow matters.

Bad judging isn't "narrow matters".

That 3S got mostly -3s and some -2's...... only one -4.... when the GOE should have been all -5's... what the heck.

She clearly put both hands down, clearly landed on an inside edge ("weak landing"), or with difficult/unexpected/creative transitions preceding them.

edit:
1) good unison and distance between partners - SURE (but tbh they were too far apart for a GOE bullet)
2) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence) - SURE (they're Russian)
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in jump combination) - NO
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry - NO
5) good take off and landing - NO
6) element matches the music - YES

So, at best, the starting GOE for this attempt is +3 given they only met 3 GOE bullets.

Then the deductions according to: https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/24665-isu-communication-2334/file

- Stepping out of landing in a jump: -3 to -4 (IMO, it's a -4 because it result in a loss of balance requiring both hands to support)
- Weak landing (bad pos./wrong edge/scratching etc): -1 to -3 (really should be -2 given for the wrong edge and form break/bad pos.)
- Poor speed, height, distance, air position: -1 to -3 (-1 for the obvious off-axis lean in the air, which the commentators even called out)
- Touch down with both hands in a jump: -2 to -3 (I'd say only a -2 because it's not like both hands equally supported her body weight)

Even with minimal reductions of -3, -1, -1, -2, that immediately drops the jump to a -4.

Not in a million years does that jump deserve as high as a -2 or even -3. The +2's on their SP throw 3L were less egregious than the scores on the FS 3S, and those were ridiculous in their own right.

(On top of that - this was a major flaw in their FS and yet T/M scored 76.11 PCS -- 2.11 points higher than their personal best PCS in the free skate.)

 

[TCAngel18]

I love that Sasha is so introverted person, but when he steps to the ice he become such a diva.

And it doesn’t hurt that he’s VERY pretty

 

[lariko]

So glad to read that everyone was awesome! Can't wait to watch the free skate tonight.

 

[Jasira]

I´m so happy right now M/G did great So clean skates for everyone

 

[flanker]

Bad judging isn't "narrow matters".

You mean your bad judging. It seems yesterday it wasn't enough, you have to make the very same mistake twice? GOE bullets for solo jumps in pairs are:

1) good unison and distance between partners
2) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence)
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in jump combination)
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry
5) good take off and landing
6) element matches the music



Let's clarify: You are no expert, you do not know the rules and your perpetual complaints about scoring have zero value.

 

[sequinsgalore]

Pairs spot for Euros 2023
3: RUS, ITA
2: GEO (+1), HUN, GER (-1), BLR (+1), ESP (+1)
1: AUT (-1), FRA (-1), all others

 

[Jasira]

So I mind the result in every competiton. Nastya and Sasha I love you so much

 

[Baron Vladimir]

- Stepping out of landing in a jump: -3 to -4 (IMO, it's a -4 because it result in a loss of balance requiring both hands to support)
- Weak landing (bad pos./wrong edge/scratching etc): -1 to -3 (really should be -2 given for the wrong edge and form break/bad pos.)
- Poor speed, height, distance, air position: -1 to -3 (-1 for the obvious off-axis lean in the air, which the commentators even called out)
- Touch down with both hands in a jump: -2 to -3 (I'd say only a -2 because it's not like both hands equally supported her body weight)

Even with minimal reductions of -3, -1, -1, -2, that immediately drops the jump to a -5.

I can picture a judge giving -4 if they ignore her landing on the inside edge or maybe they couldn't see the obvious lean from their angle. But not in a million years does that jump deserve as high as a -2 or even -3. The +2's on their SP throw 3L were less egregious than the scores on the FS 3S, and those were ridiculous in their own right.

Also, this is not the way how you deduct from the positives, if you want to deduct for the landing, you deduct for the weak landing of for a hand down or for a stepping down depending of which mistake is the most visible one for you personally, not for all of them at the same time. Because according to your logic skaters can get -7 for their final GOE. If the element had multiple mistakes you can give -5 without thinking, but because the problem was only on the landing you deduct -3 or -4 from the positives and getting up with -2 or -3 as your final score. Exactly what we see in the judges scores.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You mean your bad judging. It seems yesterday it wasn't enough, you have to make the very same mistake twice? GOE bullets for solo jumps in pairs are:

1) good unison and distance between partners
2) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence)
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in jump combination)
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry
5) good take off and landing
6) element matches the music



Let¨s clarify: You are no expert, you do not know the rules and your perpetual complaints about scoring have zero value.

Even with this list GOE bullets there's no justifying -2 and I would love to hear how you would justify it..

1) good unison and distance between partners
2) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence)
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in jump combination)
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry
5) good take off and landing
6) element matches the music

They definitely don't get 3,4,5.

1 is a stretch given they were quite far apart (in fact on their 3T+2T+2T they deserved a reduction for how far apart they are on the 3Ts, -1 to -3). On the salchows the unison/distance wasn't good enough for a bullet, nor was it bad enough for a deduction). 2 and 6? Well, they're Russian, and it's pre-Olympics Euros, so let's give those bullets to them by default. And sure, let's give them 1, for the same reason.

Even if you generously gave them +3 as starting GOE, the deductions are:

- stepout (min. -3)
- landing on wrong edge/bad landing position (min. -1 -- she landed on the wrong edge with poor body position)
- poor air position (min. -1)
- touch down with both hands (min. -2)

So, they could get -4 at best. IF you give them all the GOE bullets they could possibly get with such an error, and if you take into consideration the multiple deductions Evgenia should get for off-axis air position, wrong landing edge, bad landing position, stepout, and touch down with both hands.

But hey, flanker. Since you're an infallible expert, can you give your opinion of those 3S in terms of GOE bullets earned vs. deductions incurred ?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Also, this is not the way how you deduct from the positives, if you want to deduct for the landing, you deduct for the weak landing of for a hand down or for a stepping down depends of which mistake is the most visible, not for all of them in the same tame. If the element had multiple mistakes you can give it -5 without thinking, but because the problem is only on the landing you deduct -3 or -4 from the positives and getting up with -2 or -3 as your final score. Exactly what we see in the judges scores.

This is false. Deductions are cumulative.

If a skater has a flutz, lean in the air, and a stepout, and a hand down you don't just reduce GOE for whichever one is most egregious, you total them and reduce from what positive GOE bullets the skater earned otherwise. If a skater commits enough minor-errors, then they could get as low as -5 even without a fall.

There are multiple factors to a landing - was it landed on an outside edge, was it landed with poor position, was it landed on one foot, was it landed scratchy/forward on the toe pick, was there a stepout, was there a hand or two hands down?

With your logic, a jump with a step out on the landing should be given the same grade of execution as the same jump with two-foot + stepout + two hands-down on the landing.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

This is false. Deductions are cumulative.

If a skater has a flutz, lean in the air, and a stepout, and a hand down you don't just reduce GOE for whichever one is most egregious, you total them and reduce from what positive GOE bullets the skater earned otherwise.

With your logic, a jump with a step out should be given the same grade of execution as the same jump with stepout and a hand-down.

No, you don't total them, you just give -5 as your final score, naming it as an element with the multiple mistakes. Next thing, you can't deduct more than -5 from the positives, and in that case (with more mistakes) the positives can start from maximum +3, according to the rules/recommendations. So in the cases similar with your, final score can be at the best -2, but most likely is -3 or -4, and very rarely -5, because that usually judges are giving for the fall, or if you defined it as the element with multiple mistakes -5 is mandatory as a final score.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

No, you don't total them, you just give -5 as your final score, naming it as the element with the multiple mistakes. Next thing, you can't deduct more than -5 from the positives, and in that case positives are starting from maximum +3. So, final score can be at the best -2, but most likely is -3 or -4, and very rarely -5, because that usually judges are giving for the fall.

What do you mean you can't deduct more than -5 from the positives?! GOE is an accumulation of positive bullets and reductions for errors.

https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/24665-isu-communication-2334/file

p.g. "In case of multiple errors the corresponding reductions are added."

There literally is no math that could justify a -2 unless you willfully ignore plainsight things that should be deducted for, or add GOE bullets that they didn't earn — I suppose you think those 3S get an "effortless" bullet because they continued skating afterwards, and a "steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry" bullet because they had crossovers which totally count as preceding difficult steps.

If a judge properly acknowledged the bare minimum reductions for T/M's 3S, even with 3 GOE bullets, after reductions (poor air position, wrong edge on landing foot/poor landing position, stepout, 2 hands down) the GOE should have been -4 at best. Only one judge properly did this.

 

[ladyjane]

Pairs spot for Euros 2023
3: RUS, ITA
2: GEO (+1), HUN, GER (-1), BLR (+1)
1: AUT (-1), FRA (-1), all others

Won't Spain also get two spots? Laura and Marco were 9th after all.

 

[sequinsgalore]

Won't Spain also get two spots? Laura and Marco were 9th after all.

Yes, of course

 

[Baron Vladimir]

What do you mean you can't deduct more than -5 from the positives?! GOE is an accumulation of positive bullets and reductions for errors.

https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/24665-isu-communication-2334/file

p.g. "In case of multiple errors the corresponding reductions are added."


If a judge properly acknowledged the bare minimum reductions for T/M's 3S, even with 3 GOE bullets, after reductions (poor air position, wrong edge on landing foot/poor landing position, stepout, 2 hands down) the GOE should have been -4 at best. Only one judge properly did this.

There is no logic to deduct more than -5 because you can get to -10 in that case, which is a non existed number in the judging system. A fall with the under rotation and wrong take off can't get less than -5..
So, if an element has errors in all phases of it, like from the beginning to the end (and if we want to take a jump as an example - mistake on the take off, air position, and on the landing), that is mandatory -5, even there is no fall on it. Or, if there are more errors in the element which are not that obvious (in case of a jump for example, step out and after the review ! sign and q sign), you are deducting negatives from maximum +3, even if you can find 4 positives. If an element has an error in one part of its process (landing), you are still acknowledging other positive aspects of it, like the take off phase - entry, steps into the jump and jump in the air - height, distance, body position, so you only deduct for the landing phase (as for example hand down) from the positives, or if there are more of them you deduct -5 from the positives, if there are any positives to begin with..
That judge who came up with -4 found only one positive GOE point and deducted -5 from it, that's how he/she came up with -4. He/she was the only one in the judging panel with that process of the judging and the mark didn't count in the final scores, because majority of the judges found at least two positives to begin with, or didn't deduct maximum -5 from the positives, but -4 or -3 (only for the bad landing or whatever name you gave it).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

There is no logic to deduct more than -5 because you can get to -10 in that case, which is a non existed number in the judging system. A fall with the under rotation and wrong take off can't get less than -5.

LOL yes, -5 is the worst one could score on an element. So like a two-foot + fall would score the same as a flutz fall would score the same as a downgrade + fall, etc. They are all scored the same.

The reason most falls get -5 is because a) they prevent a skater from getting 3 GOE bullets at the least (good takeoff/landing, effortless, good body position throughout) and b) they incur other deductions - the fall itself reduces GOE by -5, and then you get anywhere from -1 to -3 for a weak landing, and usually a skater falls with one or more hands touching the ice (-1 to -2). So usually that means -5 (aside from super-generous judges who give -4's if you're a top name in the field regardless of whether or not you hit the GOE bullets).

So, if an element has errors in all phases of it, like from the beginning to the end (and if we want to take a jump as an example - mistake on the take off, air position, and on the landing), that is mandatory -5, even there is no fall on it.

No. A jump can have multiple errors in its phases but still not get -5. It all depends on the severity of the error(s) incurred. A jump with a mistake on takeoff (say, a !, getting -1), air position (-1 for a lean), and on the landing (-1 for a two foot), can still get -3 GOE, even if they got no GOE bullets -- because their starting GOE would be 0 and then after three deductions of -1, it would end up as -3.

Now, if the errors were more severe: say, a flutz on takeoff (-2 to -4), poor speed+ poor height+poor air position (-3), a wrong edge on landing (-1), stepout (-3 to -4) etc. then yeah the final GOE could be -5 without a fall, no matter how many GOE bullets the skater ended up earning for the element's starting GOE before the reductions were applied.

 

[Zora]

I find it sad Savchenko's commentary about Tarasova/Morozov can be summed up as "we skated to this music way before them".

Honestly though, why skate to this particular song? Is it such an amazing song that you absolutely have to skate to, even though your main opponent for years skated to it just a few seasons ago? It's not like Carmen, where you can use different music cuts or try a different interpretation. It feels like an extremely safe and uninspired choice, because they saw it had worked for someone else in the recent past.
Of course they can do it, but I understand her disappointment, especially because the other commentator said just before that he thinks they finally found their own style and if she agrees with that.