2014 Cup of China Mens Free Skate 11/08

[Mathman]

Without the accident which incapacitated two of the best competitors, we would not have seen the kind of performances we did.

Yes, but these particular performances only go along with this particular events. You can't take them apart….

I guess my position is something like this. I would not like the popularity of figure skating as a spectator sport to be tied up with hoping to see something dramatic happen apart from the competition itself. I am disappointed that the scoring rules allow a program with five falls to win second place, and that people think this is OK because we feel sorry for the skater, because we applaud his guts and grit (while debating the judgment of his adult support team), and because he did as well as anyone has a right to expect under the circumstances.

I think the sport will thrive only if good performances win and bad performances lose, whatever the back story. I am not especially cheered that Facebook cares more about two skaters injuring themselves than about the quality of the performances and the excitement of competition.

(Now let me get back to my re-runs of the Real Housewives of New Jersey. )

 

[Meoima]

I think the sport will thrive only if good performances win and bad performances lose, whatever the back story. I am not especially cheered that Facebook cares more about two skaters injuring themselves than about the quality of the performances and the excitement of competition.
(Now let me get back to my re-runs of the Real Housewives of New Jersey. )

As I have stated "it's shallow".

 

[surimi]

I guess my position is something like this. I would not like the popularity of figure skating as a spectator sport to be tied up with hoping to see something dramatic happen apart from the competition itself. I am disappointed that the scoring rules allow a program with five falls to win second place, and that people think this is OK because we feel sorry for the skater, because we applaud his guts and grit (while debating the judgment of his adult support team), and because he did as well as anyone has a right to expect under the circumstances.

Well put! I second this. Hanyu exceeded my expectations given his state, but the high scores looked just wrong to me.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I felt Hanyu had deep edges and good body lines (i.e. arm movements etc.) throughout. My wife was engaged throughout Hanyu's skate but got bored during Kovtun's skate and felt the latter's performance was a "jump to jump" program. Shouldn't this be reflected in PCS, or do falls decrease the PCS? Looking at the PCS categories (skating skills, transition/linking footwork, performance/execution, choreography/composition, and interpretation) it seems to me like falls would impact the performance/execution score the most, but not as much on the others.

Falls should impact every PCS score aside from maybe skating skills. Even then, part of the reason for a fall can be because you weren't controlling your blades, so. Falling 5 times means 5 failed transitions. It means your choreography has changed. It means your interpretation has changed. Every moment, every movement of a performance is choreography and interpretation. On rare occasions a dramatic fall might actually be good choreography and interpretation, but obviously nobody plans one in competition and none of Hanyu's mishaps here fit that category.

Kovtun was massively overscored as well, his program is trash and his posture needs so much work, but he at least deserved to be above Hanyu because of an overall steadier performance and technical delivery.

Misha Ge should have won this LP. He didn't have a good program either, but he was the only one here who gave a complete performance and did well technically too. Richard Dornbush gave the best performance for me and I would have placed him 2nd in the LP. Nam Nguyen 3rd.

 

[silverfoxes]

I guess my position is something like this. I would not like the popularity of figure skating as a spectator sport to be tied up with hoping to see something dramatic happen apart from the competition itself. I am disappointed that the scoring rules allow a program with five falls to win second place, and that people think this is OK because we feel sorry for the skater, because we applaud his guts and grit (while debating the judgment of his adult support team), and because he did as well as anyone has a right to expect under the circumstances.

I think the sport will thrive only if good performances win and bad performances lose, whatever the back story. I am not especially cheered that Facebook cares more about two skaters injuring themselves than about the quality of the performances and the excitement of competition.

Well, I'd like to think some of those people are actually concerned for their well-being. I personally put that above "the quality of the performances and the excitement of the competition." Personally, I stopped caring about the competition results when I saw blood dripping down Yuzuru's face. It bothers me that some people are more hung up on petty PCS arguments than the health of these two teenage boys. But I'll continue to watch the sport...it was a freak accident, with freaky results, which will hopefully never happen again.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

What do we tell Dornbush then? Sorry about the lack of silver, but the judges weren't in the right mindset? If they hadn't been so shocked by the collision they wouldn't have given a person with 5 falls a higher performance/execution score than you?

How about "Sorry, but if you can't manage more than nearly 15(!!!) points less in BV than a teenager that had his head hitting the ice like an anvil, it's your own fault"? Something like 66 to 81 is a very big difference...

And the outcry over Dornbush being robbed is especially weird since he was "lucky" anyway Hanyu had that horrible accident (not saying Dornbush was happy about it or anything). You think his under-150 LP score would have been enough to fend off a halfway fit Hanyu?

 

[TMC]

Misha Ge should have won this LP. He didn't have a good program either, but he was the only one here who gave a complete performance and did well technically too. Richard Dornbush gave the best performance for me and I would have placed him 2nd in the LP. Nam Nguyen 3rd.

Agree 100%

 

[AprilS]

Well, I'd like to think some of those people are actually concerned for their well-being. I personally put that above "the quality of the performances and the excitement of the competition." Personally, I stopped caring about the competition results when I saw blood dripping down Yuzuru's face. It bothers me that some people are more hung up on petty PCS arguments than the health of these two teenage boys. But I'll continue to watch the sport...it was a freak accident, with freaky results, which will hopefully never happen again.

This.

 

[karne]

My thoughts, summed into dot points because otherwise wall of text:

1. No-one is to blame for the collision. (That was pre-emptive; I know one Hanyufan already blamed Han for it here, I'm sure they're having a field day elsewhere in the internet about Big Evil Han.)

2. Neither of them should have skated. This is everyone's fault that they did.

3. They are both over the age of 18 and therefore considered adults by most countries. They were stupid to skate.

4. Even more, the coaches, referee, officials should not have allowed them to skate - even if that meant physically restraining them. (I mean come on, look at Hanyu, it can't be that hard to hold him back...) Tie them up if you have to, neither should have skated.

5. NO-ONE should ever, ever, NEVER get even CLOSE to medalling with 5 falls. Hanyuflation in full effect.

6. I loathe Kovtun but I am almost glad he won because Hanyu winning would have been totally unacceptable. As it is Hanyu's silver is totally unacceptable.

7. I thought this after the SP but this confirmed it. I'm not even a fan but: #dornbushwuzrobbed

8. Why is there discussion about the possibility of Max and Jason colliding? I think I know how that would go. Poor Jason would feel like he ran into a brick wall, and Max would be very upset that he'd inadvertently hurt his friend.

 

[Skater Boy]

Completely OT, StitchMonkey, but that was one of my first thoughts. Kori would stand rinkside with an army battalion before she would let Jason skate in that condition. Which would also make good press.

I'm sorry that Ricky's good skate gets lost in this debacle...

okay you can see the strong legion of committed fans to certain skaters - it is a far stretch to bring Jason Brown into this conversation.

 

[viennaskater]

I just watched Misha Ge's heartwarming performance again. After all the dramas of the day, it felt restorative to watch someone like that who skates so completely from his soul, and reminded me that, although accidents happen, it could have been worse, and the chances are good that both skaters involved will recover.

 

[Meoima]

My thoughts, summed into dot points because otherwise wall of text:

1. No-one is to blame for the collision. (That was pre-emptive; I know one Hanyufan already blamed Han for it here, I'm sure they're having a field day elsewhere in the internet about Big Evil Han.)

2. Neither of them should have skated. This is everyone's fault that they did.

3. They are both over the age of 18 and therefore considered adults by most countries. They were stupid to skate.

4. Even more, the coaches, referee, officials should not have allowed them to skate - even if that meant physically restraining them. (I mean come on, look at Hanyu, it can't be that hard to hold him back...) Tie them up if you have to, neither should have skated.

1- NO ONE has blamed any side in the collision so stop assuming and it does sound to me that you are fabricating that people are blaming Han Yan. It's disgusting because it's not true. Yuzuru's fan don't even blame Han Yan and vice versa. Both of their fans are constantly worried over their condition.

2- You expected 2 skaters who have just collided at full speed to each other with possible concussion to think rationally???

3- Even if they were 33 years old it's still the same. That kind of collision surely made them dazed. I hit my head on the ground when I was young. I got up and walked home. Then slept. When I woke up I forgot all what I had done the day before.

4- yes, I blame those coaches and staffs as well.

5- I don't blame the skaters. They didn't even think straight by that time.

 

[TMC]

I just watched Misha Ge's heartwarming performance again. After all the dramas of the day, it felt restorative to watch someone like that who skates so completely from his soul, and reminded me that, although accidents happen, it could have been worse, and the chances are good that both skaters involved will recover.

:thumbsup:

 

[silverfoxes]

I just watched Misha Ge's heartwarming performance again. After all the dramas of the day, it felt restorative to watch someone like that who skates so completely from his soul, and reminded me that, although accidents happen, it could have been worse, and the chances are good that both skaters involved will recover.

Misha got a last minute invitation to perform in the gala (he had to come up with his EX in a few hours last night, apparently), so that is a small silver lining in all of this.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Agree 100%

Yay!

Also, looking at the SP again, Misha Ge was ridiculously underscored there. Underrotation call on his Triple-Triple that I disagree with and he was given 0 points for his combination spin??? He wasn't given level credit on his camel spin either for having a difficult entrance. He should have placed 2nd overall at this event and Hanyu should have been off the podium.

 

[karne]

1- NO ONE has blamed any side in the collision so stop assuming and it does sound to me that you are fabricating that people are blaming Han Yan. It's disgusting because it's not true. Yuzuru's fan don't even blame Han Yan and vice versa. Both of their fans are constantly worried over their condition.

Oh, really? I don't think I was dreaming when I read this:

I think Han Yan should have been more careful

2- You expected 2 skaters who have just collided at full speed to each other with possible concussion to think rationally???

It is everyone there's fault that they skated in that condition. Including theirs. They chose it. I'm not saying it was rational, but they still chose it.

4- yes, I blame those coaches and staffs as well.

5- I don't blame the skaters. They didn't even think straight by that time.

Physical restraint should have been used at the very least.

 

[Meoima]

Oh, really? I don't think I was dreaming when I read this:

Mirunna has said after that she thought it's just an accident and no one should be blamed. She thinks Han Yan is not to blame, read her following posts before jumping to conclusion. She even said sorry.

It is everyone there's fault that they skated in that condition. Including theirs. They chose it. I'm not saying it was rational, but they still chose it.

No one is arguing that they are not stupid in this day. Their decision to skate was utterly stupid. But they were dazed at that time. I wouldn't blame them. They have trained for so long and if they withdrew they might lost many chances. It's stupid but tell me you have never done a stupid action in your life.

Physical restraint should have been used at the very least.

The point is no one stopped them. I am puzzled.

 

[FIREBIRD]

I feel terrible for both Han Yan and Hanyu because of the collision...but I don't believe Hanyu deserved the silver at all. He messed up BIG on both of his programs and stating that he was hugely overscored is an understatement. There should have been a much bigger difference between his score and Maxims. I mean for crying out loud, he fell down 5 times! :disapp:

 

[surimi]

Misha Ge should have won this LP. He didn't have a good program either, but he was the only one here who gave a complete performance and did well technically too. Richard Dornbush gave the best performance for me and I would have placed him 2nd in the LP.

Me too. :yes: And I agree about the Kovtun vs. Hanyu scores.
Concerning Ge: he doesn't have a fanfest thread (yet) so I'll post it here - I very much appreciate his latest tweets. He doesn't only talk about his programs/plans/gala, but thanks his fans and everyone, and most importantly, takes time to inform people about Yan and Hanyu, even promising to keep everyone updated just so. What class and sportsmanlike conduct, I'm really liking this young man's attitude. :thumbsup:

 

[StitchMonkey]

Max is a 22-year-old adult, and if he had temporarily lost consciousness, I would like to believe that he would have made his own decision to withdraw. He is a very competitive athlete, but he also is a very intelligent guy.
(Don't want this thread to become a referendum on Tom Z, but I myself would not leap to any assumptions as to what kind of opinion he might have offered to Max.)

Actually, I think Max is crazy enough to still skate. We just saw two skaters skate after passing out, so not sure I would automatically assume Max would withdraw. Tom Z, does get a lot of heat, I do think he would be on the play through the pain train if you can, but I also think he would stand by his athletes 100% if they decided to withdraw. I actually do like Tom Z for what it is worth.

I would hope that he would, but he may be one of the Americans I would peg as most likely to still skate.

Which is part of why I wish it was not the skaters call to make. Take it out of their hands and no one has to try to look tough.