2014 Cup of China Mens Free Skate 11/08

[rain]

I feel terrible for both Han Yan and Hanyu because of the collision...but I don't believe Hanyu deserved the silver at all. He messed up BIG on both of his programs and stating that he was hugely overscored is an understatement. There should have been a much bigger difference between his score and Maxims. I mean for crying out loud, he fell down 5 times! :disapp:

The scoring was ludicrous. Neither skater should have been allowed on the ice (I have commented further on this in the other thread specifically for it). But beyond that, both of these skaters have gorgeous skating skills (though I actually think Yan's are better than Hanyu's), no question. However, their programs were obviously and severely affected by the injuries they sustained. It wasn't just the botched jumps, but the in-between stuff as well.

Then there's also the fact that I cringed throughout Hanyu's skate as he just kept falling over and over and over again. That has to be reflected somewhere, doesn't it, when the viewer is wincing through a skate?

Han Yan was appropriately deducted for the poor performance. Hanyu was not.

It is a disturbing precedent. Particularly when there were so many other very credible performances by skaters like Dornbush, Misha Ge and Nam Nyugen.

Edited because I forgot to add Kovtun — but I didn't mention him since he won anyway, so wasn't really impacted by the scoring debacle.

 

[jan]

If Patrick Chan had put out a performance like Hanyu people on this forum would be calling for heads to roll. There were no skating skills on display in this performance . At least Patrick Chan never let his PCS go. The biggest shame here is the marking of Dornbush. He actually skated the best program.

 

[FIREBIRD]

It is a disturbing precedent. Particularly when there were so many other very credible performances by skaters like Dornbush, Misha Ge and Nam Nyugen.

I completely agree, Dornbush and Nam were great. I especially enjoyed Misha Ges performances which I thought were absolutely lovely. His short program to Ave Maria was just

 

[karne]

Actually, I think Max is crazy enough to still skate. We just saw two skaters skate after passing out, so not sure I would automatically assume Max would withdraw. Tom Z, does get a lot of heat, I do think he would be on the play through the pain train if you can, but I also think he would stand by his athletes 100% if they decided to withdraw. I actually do like Tom Z for what it is worth.

I would hope that he would, but he may be one of the Americans I would peg as most likely to still skate.

Which is part of why I wish it was not the skaters call to make. Take it out of their hands and no one has to try to look tough.

I...actually agree. Leaving aside the evidence that we know Joshua is crazy enough to skate when encouraged by his coach...I do think Max would probably be at risk of wanting to skate. He's a very intelligent young man, and with a doctor for a father and a nurse for a mother I'm sure he knows all about this stuff. But...Zakrasjek is not exactly renowned for encouraging his skaters to withdraw when they are injured.

That said, unless there was a head-clash like here, in a collision between Jason and Max I doubt it would be Max coming off second-best. (Sorry Jason!)

 

[Sabrina]

What a weird competition. I am amazed by the young Canadian Nguyen who manages to be very consistent with his programs, and even big jumps. He has to improve speed and some spins but he is so amazing. Misha Ge is also so special. Richard Donbush was very good. I think Yzuru was over scored, but this is figure skating...

 

[Sandpiper]

Finally caught up on the Men's free. My goodness...

I think the important thing now is, are Hanyu and Han Yan both okay? They didn't make the smartest decisions, but they were both dazed--I wouldn't trust their judgement in that moment. In the future, there should be a medical team on hand to immediately take care of these incidents. The medical team should also be able to force the skaters to withdraw, if they feel like their injuries are too severe.

Mandatory comment about judging: Yes, yes, Hanyu's PCS were too high. But frankly, the TES is the problem--the ISU needs to fix their fall deduction ASAP. Have a fall on a quad toe get the same points as a triple toe. But honestly, it's hard to care about medals or placements when everyone skated so badly, and when two skaters are injured and in the hospital. If I had to choose, I'd put Nam, Misha, and Richard Dornbush on the podium, in any order.

On a positive note, despite the jump errors, I actually think Han Yan sold his LP better than his SP. He seemed in character the whole way through. Credit to him for that.

 

[karne]

Yes, I watched the videos carefully, and though I can't be completely sure, as I was not there, but I doubt either Yzuru or Nam had a period of conscience loss. Nam was not hit in the head and he had a more controlled fall on the ice. Yzuru, hit his head on Nam's chest, and might have bruised Nam's chin, but I think the big impact that bruised his chin and head was when he fell on the ice. There is no doubt they were both shocked by the high speed impact and the resulted trauma. But I don't think there is any concussion or any deep/profound/bad injury. Of course both should be checked, for (less possible) internal bleeding (mostly Nam), and of course concussion should be ruled out for both, but mostly Yzuru.

It was Han Yan who was the other skater in the collision, not Nam Ngyuen, who fortunately was not.

I feel bad for Han. A lot of fans seem more worried about Yuzuru than about him.

 

[Sabrina]

It was Han Yan who was the other skater in the collision, not Nam Ngyuen, who fortunately was not.

I feel bad for Han. A lot of fans seem more worried about Yuzuru than about him.

Yes you are right! I made a name mistake Nam/Han...though I know them very well. I also deleted this message as I intended to post it on the injury thread...I am tired as last night I watched horrified first by Julia then the cherry on the cake was the accident in men competition...LOL Hopefully all skaters stay healthy and happy!

 

[HanDomi]

I feel bad for Han. A lot of fans seem more worried about Yuzuru than about him.

Now start bidding ho has more worries from fans, this is ridiculous really. Does it really matter ? Most important is that if they are both ok, and not ho has more fans worring about ho. Gosh

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If Patrick Chan had put out a performance like Hanyu people on this forum would be calling for heads to roll.

Indeed. Although I think the majority of people here agree that the judging was awful, which of course isn't Hanyu's fault.

Btw, Patrick has put out a performance that was similarly awful at the Japan Open 2012 http://www.jsfresults.com/InterNational/2012-2013/jo/data0105.pdf but was at least marked down by the judges (84 PCS for 4 falls and some pops compared to Chan's usual 94+ PCS for a clean skate... versus 84 PCS for 5 falls with a usual PCS of 90 for a clean skate).

 

[firal]

Oh, I think both Orser and Hanyu-kun know they are overscored. They look shocked and confused in kiss and cry, and I think I read that Japanese tv captured Hanyu-kun asked :" how did I get 2nd?" While Orser replied:I don't know.

Nam seemed even slower in person; especially his preparation for the jumps, it was making the program very disjointed. I didn't really feel it when watching video for SA, but it was very obvious this time.

Misha was a highlight, for both nights really. I was forgetting that he knows how to land jumps! And he truly has amazing artistry. Both programs suit him very well.

Can anyone tell me the idea behind Max's costume? Relating to the music and those grids?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Misha was a highlight, for both nights really. I was forgetting that he knows how to land jumps! And he truly has amazing artistry. Both programs suit him very well.

Very underrated, but the lack of a quad and speed is quite apparent. His jumps are beautiful though and I think he got hosed a bit on GOE. I agree with BoP too that some of his spin levels were not correct and I don't understand why his CoSp in his SP was negated (maybe positions weren't held enough? or he didn't have the required types of positions?)

 

[jan]

The issue I have is that Hanyu had no program today along with 5 falls. He looked like he was just marking his program.

Indeed. Although I think the majority of people here agree that the judging was awful, which of course isn't Hanyu's fault.

Btw, Patrick has put out a performance that was similarly awful at the Japan Open 2012 http://www.jsfresults.com/InterNational/2012-2013/jo/data0105.pdf but was at least marked down by the judges (84 PCS for 4 falls and some pops compared to Chan's usual 94+ PCS for a clean skate... versus 84 PCS for 5 falls with a usual PCS of 90 for a clean skate).

 

[GF2445]

Skaters cannot be blamed if they have a good reputation with the judges.

Why do some people blame the skaters if the judging was not good?? They didn't do anything to deserve it.
Or are people like that just opportunistic.

 

[Barb]

I guess my position is something like this. I would not like the popularity of figure skating as a spectator sport to be tied up with hoping to see something dramatic happen apart from the competition itself. I am disappointed that the scoring rules allow a program with five falls to win second place, and that people think this is OK because we feel sorry for the skater, because we applaud his guts and grit (while debating the judgment of his adult support team), and because he did as well as anyone has a right to expect under the circumstances.

I think the sport will thrive only if good performances win and bad performances lose, whatever the back story. I am not especially cheered that Facebook cares more about two skaters injuring themselves than about the quality of the performances and the excitement of competition.

(Now let me get back to my re-runs of the Real Housewives of New Jersey. )

Totally agree.

 

[ice coverage]

... I'm sorry that Ricky's good skate gets lost in this debacle...

I would not say it got lost. Maybe a bit under the radar, which is not all bad. Funny to think he has about the same chance of making the GPF as Max. I am certainly following him with interest.

I hope it is safe to assume that NBC will show Dornbush's FS.

Max and Richard both have their work cut out for them in the hunt for a GPF slot ... but excited for both of them as they as they take their best shots.

... 8. Why is there discussion about the possibility of Max and Jason colliding? I think I know how that would go. Poor Jason would feel like he ran into a brick wall, and Max would be very upset that he'd inadvertently hurt his friend.

Actually, I think Max is crazy enough to still skate. ... he may be one of the Americans I would peg as most likely to still skate. ....

I...actually agree. ..I do think Max would probably be at risk of wanting to skate. ....

The way I'm looking at it is that hopefully Max would be disciplined enough to keep his eyes on the long-term prize of 2018, and to not risk exacerbating any injury from a collision.
And I hope that he learned his lesson from his broken back, which kept him off the ice for many months -- after all season long he had continued competing in both skating and hockey even though his body was giving him the warning signs of pain.

Anyway, Max and Jason both gotta avoid injuring each other (and themselves) so they will be in peak condition at Nats to qualify for Worlds together :yes:.

... (Now let me get back to my re-runs of the Real Housewives of New Jersey. )

 

[Mathman]

Well, I'd like to think some of those people are actually concerned for their well-being. I personally put that above "the quality of the performances and the excitement of the competition."

Sorry if I seemed insensitive or unsympathetic to the skaters' injuries. It is encouraging that so many people have expressed concern and best wishes on social media.

 

[Interspectator]

Sorry if I seemed insensitive or unsympathetic to the skaters' injuries. It is encouraging that so many people have expressed concern and best wishes on social media.

Everyone expresses their opinions. That is what forums are for.

I'm very worried about the health of Yuzuru Hanyu and Han Yan. -But that doesn't mean that all other concerns about this competition should go away.
If anything, it highlights many things that are wrong with the sport or at least this competition.

 

[erasona]

I guess my position is something like this. I would not like the popularity of figure skating as a spectator sport to be tied up with hoping to see something dramatic happen apart from the competition itself. I am disappointed that the scoring rules allow a program with five falls to win second place, and that people think this is OK because we feel sorry for the skater, because we applaud his guts and grit (while debating the judgment of his adult support team), and because he did as well as anyone has a right to expect under the circumstances.

I think the sport will thrive only if good performances win and bad performances lose, whatever the back story. I am not especially cheered that Facebook cares more about two skaters injuring themselves than about the quality of the performances and the excitement of competition.

I completely agree. I'm not going to get into a fight, so I'd rather not talk too much. Mathman was on point with the fact that the favorable scoring encourages this decision. I AM NOT SAYING PEOPLE WILL TRY TO BEAT THEMSELVES UP TO GET THE ADVANTAGE, but, if a similar situation occurs (please no ) then a skater, in the right mind or not, will feel a strong incentive to compete, at least for those with a strong competitive spirit (all..?). This is horrible for both the skater and the sport. That's my main qualm about the results. As for the skaters, gawd, I just hope they get better.

One question, since this is the Men's FS thread, why was Kovtun and his team so shocked and glum that he won first? Is it because his score was not significantly higher than the next? Why did people seem to not want Kovtun to win.

 

[Interspectator]

Kovtun, though not injured, was seriously 'off his groove' probably due to the collision and the practice being postponed. His LP was not impressive and not close to what he is capable of when he is in the right state of mind.