2016 Rostelecom Cup Free Dance

[madison]

I guess we'll have in the GPF 2 American couples (S/S and C/B) 2 Canadian (V/M and W/P), a French one and a Russian

 

[coldblueeyes]

There's a difference when a historically second tier skater who has never really had a great skate smashes their personal best or they had a great skate before judges started giving higher GOE/PCS (as is the case with Osmond).

Both Osmond at SC and B/S at RC are home inflation - but it seems people are unwilling to admit the latter (even though it's laughably obvious) simply because they love to rail on North American teams and events while thinking Russia (I mean, Russia - of all places!) isn't prone to favourable judging that benefits their own.

I don't see anyone saying Russia is not providing support for their teams to score better at home - or just plainly homecooking the competition. It just seems that people think these scores came out of nowhere, when nothing on their protocols signals to that. That kind of GOE they got is pretty much what they usually get lately, and well, the PCS is another matter, but even then, it's nothing they didn't get internationally before, or close to it. At least they didn't win the competition solely on that.

I can't speak about other disciplines, though, so YMMV.

 

[sneakers]

C/B's loss here in COR is understandable but in Canada? It was clearly a case of 'home advantage' for V/M: C/B should have that event.

right, C/B had a mistake here and weren't at their best, at skate canada they were marked down just because Virtue / Moir were competing in a home advantage.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Well, then Skate Canada should have awarded better PCS for C/B's strongest technical skates, and they would have won last week. Oh, but Virtue and Moir were there, so, no.

Every country is playing their own games.

C/B scored their total personal bests at Skate Canada. V/M were below their personal best. How is that favouritism for V/M?


B/S smashed both of their PBs at RC2016. Not to mention C/B were credited with higher level 4s on their step sequence at Skate Canada even though that would threaten V/M's win (so much for stacking in favour of home skaters) - but here the same sequence achieved only level 3 in both programs (4 points less base value) which only helped B/S cause.

The notable diff between Skate Canada and here is C/B were awarded levels and PCS that gave them a shot to win SC and to beat the home skaters. At Rostelecom the opposite occurred where the home skaters were awarded GOE and PCS that gave them a shot to win and were helped out when the favourites erred.

 

[sneakers]

There's a difference when a historically second tier skater who has never really had a great skate smashes their personal best or they had a great skate before judges started giving higher GOE/PCS (as is the case with Osmond).

Both Osmond at SC and B/S at RC are home inflation - but it seems people are unwilling to admit the latter (even though it's laughably obvious) simply because they love to rail on North American teams and events while thinking Russia (I mean, Russia - of all places!) isn't prone to favourable judging that benefits their own.

letting this hypocrisy of saying inflation, people forget the inflation of the past two GP events
maybe the contest is who is biggest hypoctite? by no means would Osmond score above 200+, the way she skated had the event not held in her home country.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

right, C/B had a mistake here and weren't at their best, at skate canada they were marked down just because Virtue / Moir were competing in a home advantage.

Yeah, total advantage ... Which is why C/B got a SD/total personal best at Skate Canada and V/M were scored below their personal best.

 

[coldblueeyes]

C/B scored their total personal bests at Skate Canada. V/M were below their personal best. How is that favouritism for V/M?


B/S smashed both of their PBs at RC2016. Not to mention C/B were credited with higher level 4s on their step sequence at Skate Canada even though that would threaten V/M's win (so much for stacking in favour of home skaters) - but here the same sequence achieved only level 3 in both programs (4 points less base value) which only helped B/S cause.

The notable diff between Skate Canada and here is C/B were awarded levels and PCS that gave them a shot to win SC and to beat the home skaters. At Rostelecom the opposite occurred where the home skaters were awarded GOE and PCS that gave them a shot to win and were helped out when the favourites erred.

What?

C/B lost Skate Canada SOLELY on the PCS score. They were more than three points better than V/M in the total TES - one point in the SD, two points in the FD, but lost to them in both segments by two points in the PCS.

With the PCS they got in Russia they'd have won the competition.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

C/B's loss here in COR is understandable but in Canada? It was clearly a case of 'home advantage' for V/M: C/B should have that event.

Except V/M are better skaters, Olympic and World champions, etc. If it was clear home advantage how did C/B get a personal best (with higher levels than V/M) and V/M were below their personal best?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

What?

C/B lost Skate Canada SOLELY on the PCS score. They were more than three points better than V/M in the total TES - one point in the SD, two points in the FD, but lost to them in both segments by two points in the PCS.

With the PCS they got in Russia they'd have won the competition.

That's a silly argument - you could also say that had they got their PCS from world's they also would have won.

And had they gotten the PCS/scores from their previous CS events they would have been well behind V/M.

The only reason they had a shot to win was because they were awarded higher levels than V/M. People expected the gap to be way more and they certainly didn't expect C/B to get a personal best when it would threaten V/M's win. Note that V/M also lost the FD.

V/M were slated to beat C/B by a lot. They did not. For C/B to get within a point of them and get a personal best doesn't exactly support the home advantage argument.

For B/S to smash their PB by a whopping 8 points, and almost best C/B in the SD when we would have expected a greater gap, is more significant evidence of home advantage.

 

[Astrid56]

Except V/M are better skaters, Olympic and World champions, etc. If it was clear home advantage how did C/B get a personal best (with higher levels than V/M) and V/M were below their personal best?

Oh, totally understand your sentiments but let's face it - true, V/M are Olympic and World Champions but it doesn't mean they are the better skaters. "Better" is relative and, at best, subjective and one reason why the Judges are instructed to not think of the competitors' previous performances and wins and simply concentrate on the performances they're evaluating and judging. C/B clearly bested them in Skate Canada but home advantage favored them to win.

 

[coldblueeyes]

That's a silly argument - you could also say that had they got their PCS from world's they also would have won.

And had they gotten the PCS/scores from their previous CS events they would have been well behind V/M.

The only reason they had a shot to win was because they were awarded higher levels than V/M. People expected the gap to be way more and they certainly didn't expect C/B to get a personal best when it would threaten V/M's win. Note that V/M also lost the FD.

V/M were slated to beat C/B by a lot. They did not. For C/B to get within a point of them and get a personal best doesn't exactly support the home advantage argument.

For B/S to smash their PB by a whopping 8 points, and almost best C/B in the SD when we would have expected a greater gap, is more significant evidence of home advantage.

Expect a greater gap because?? They got their levels, the same levels C/B were awarded in the SD. Not even the PCS advantage they had was enough to put them first. In the FD, C/B didn't get their levels high enough to win, that's it.

V/M were slated to win because?? I fail to see the logic here. Just because a team is supposedly better than another it dosn't mean they are going to win. Levels in ID are not something locked, either you get them or you don't, but it's decided on the ice. B/S beat their personal bests with clean skates, and a help in the PCS, but they didn't need to be propped to a higher place on the podium.

I think we are going in circles here, though. So let's agree to disagree about some stuff and leave it at that

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

They got their levels, the same levels C/B were awarded in the SD. Not even the PCS advantage they had was enough to put them first. In the FD, C/B didn't get their levels high enough to win, that's it.

Actually, in the SD, C/B got one level 3 and the rest level 4s. V/M got three level 3s.

In the FD, C/B got one level 3 the rest level 4s. V/M got four level 3s.

Obvious home advantage. :sarcasm:

 

[Astrid56]

That's a silly argument - you could also say that had they got their PCS from world's they also would have won.

And had they gotten the PCS/scores from their previous CS events they would have been well behind V/M.

The only reason they had a shot to win was because they were awarded higher levels than V/M. People expected the gap to be way more and they certainly didn't expect C/B to get a personal best when it would threaten V/M's win. Note that V/M also lost the FD.

V/M were slated to beat C/B by a lot. They did not. For C/B to get within a point of them and get a personal best doesn't exactly support the home advantage argument.

For B/S to smash their PB by a whopping 8 points, and almost best C/B in the SD when we would have expected a greater gap, is more significant evidence of home advantage.

On the contrary, that point difference validates the notion of home advantage ... and C/B awarded a higher technical scores said it all. It's not like V/M was cheated of that - the levels are settled or agreed upon by both the technical panel and coaches before the performance takes place and evaluated during the performance as expressed in GEO adjustments. I'd say that PCS are what make the performance vulnerable because the points can go up/down with the judge's bias whether it is conscious or not. PCS are extremely subjective and relative.

 

[Sugarpova]

Aw poor Evan
I wouldn't have thought they will give the victory themselves
Congrats BS tho!

 

[coldblueeyes]

Actually, in the SD, C/B got one level 3 and the rest level 4s. V/M got three level 3s.

In the FD, C/B got one level 3 the rest level 4s. V/M got four level 3s.

Obvious home advantage. :sarcasm:

Because the judges are supposed to hand out levels and not actually judge what happened on the ice? You're taking this to a whole new level. It makes me question how much you actually know about ID.

 

[coldblueeyes]

On the contrary, that point difference validates the notion of home advantage ... and C/B awarded a higher technical scores said it all. It's not like V/M was cheated of that - the levels are settled or agreed upon by both the technical panel and coaches before the performance takes place and evaluated during the performance as expressed in GEO adjustments. I'd say that PCS are what make the performance vulnerable because the points can go up/down with the judge's bias whether it is conscious or not. PCS are extremely subjective and relative.

And where even does this come from?? I'm hard pressed to think any of the top teams would agree to lose points by settling for a lesser level step sequence, or a lift level three or a spin level two, anything that's not level four. The technical panel calls the levels on the ice during the competition. If a team cleans all the turns and edges, rotations, keypoints they are going to get a level four, if not, the level is reduced.

 

[moon]

I think what we should really be complaining about is that overall at every competition the judges are not judging what they have been trained to judge and what they are looking at. It cheats spectators out of experiencing a real competition and those that are not knowledgable have no way of learning what quality skating truly consists of. All levels of skaters are harmed by this not just the elite skaters. Bottom, middle and top of the pack all want feedback that they can trust and that does not deflate them when they know they have done better .
So basically we are all in the same boat. Everyone has their favourite teams and all the teams at some point are being given a great disservice due to certain coaches and judges doing their best to manipulate the marks.

 

[slider11]

I think what we should really be complaining about is that overall at every competition the judges are not judging what they have been trained to judge and what they are looking at. It cheats spectators out of experiencing a real competition and those that are not knowledgable have no way of learning what quality skating truly consists of. All levels of skaters are harmed by this not just the elite skaters. Bottom, middle and top of the pack all want feedback that they can trust and that does not deflate them when they know they have done better .
So basically we are all in the same boat. Everyone has their favourite teams and all the teams at some point are being given a great disservice due to certain coaches and judges doing their best to manipulate the marks.

I like your thinking. There should some sort of standards set by the ISU where judges are judged for accuracy and objectivity. There will always be subjectivity in art but the whole point of the new system is to balance that with proper weighting of measurable scoring as to the quality of a movement. A GOE score of -2 and another of +2 for the same judged element is wrong. Maybe one judge is wrong, maybe both. But if someone is not questioning that kind of swing on both sides, that's wrong. Maybe judges should then be rated for their accurate interpretation of the quality of moves and be ranked accordingly for future events.

 

[rosy14]

Bundesliga???? What is that?

Football ( soccer) national championships in Germany. Very, very, important(as hockey in Canada)

 

[moon]

There is a judges meeting after the event which the Referee leads. The judging of different teams are discussed and the referee can give his or her opinion as to what they think was marked incorrectly. As far as I know there can be a warning given to a judge that is seen as out of line but there doesn't appear to be any real consequences. It is very hard to prove collusion or unjust marks unless there is solid evidence. All it takes is a conversation between individuals to create the desired outcome. Dance is particularly rife with behind the boards conversations