ISU World Team Trophy 2017
- Thread starter FanOfTeamKorea
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- Joined
- Feb 15, 2017
Lol. Just picture me deleting that last digit and thinking I paid about 200 for a ticket and logging on to check my credit card activity and seeing the actual price. Hmmm...pay rent or see a figure skating event. Good god what did I do? I just have to laugh at myself I guess (while crying).
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2015
It's weighted toward singles, because the competition itself was created by the Japanese fed. And it's also Japanese sponsors that are offering what is, for figure skating, a huge amount of money. This is also why the event is always held in Japan.
Find us another country where sponsors are ready to dish out a million american dollars every two years on figure skating, and then we can talk about changing the rules, the format, the place and so on.
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
This!
So whoever sponsors an event gets to rig it however they like, as long as they put up enough money? I have no objection to that part if it remained a fluff event like the Japan Open...the part I object to is then why is this called the "ISU World Team Trophy" and why does the ISU have rules to force top skaters to go?
A sport at minimum should ensure a fair competition, fair structure, with rules equally applied to all, fair judging, and fair results. The structure of this event is not fair to all. That's why I said it should mimic the Olympic team event structure, because that would ADD value to this pointless event and would make it fair. And if Yuzuru Hanyu doesn't want to go, as he implied at the World Championships in a chat with Patrick Chan, he shouldn't have to go.
In golf, the Ryder Cup is a very prestigious event that takes place every two years between Europe and the USA. Hosting alternates between the two countries. Obviously, the hosting country has more fans rooting for the home team, but the event is prestigious so there are always fans from the other side visiting as well. The format for winning the tournament does not favor one side. Players are not required to go for the team, but it's considered a very prestigious event and most wish to be selected.
The World Team Trophy will not become anything like the Ryder Cup for as long as this continues. This event will not grow the sport outside of Japan, and it will not become prestigious no matter how much money is offered. And the sport NEEDS to grow outside of Japan. It's better for the skaters if the sport is popular in more countries, which can host more competitions, and can offer more opportunities for prize money and/or show skating. But instead, sure, let's just let sponsors and their money dictate everything to feed off the sport's popularity within Japan (because hosting Worlds and the GPF every 4 years isn't enough?).
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- Joined
- Jan 27, 2014
Just one more week.
But it feels like a year!!!
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2014
Do you realize that Japan has only won once and the USA has won in each other year? If the goal was to rig it for who pays... they are not doing a great job.
Honestly I think the teams are in a logistics Goldilocks zone. They are a good size to have a group but not be overwhelming.
I think it may need to have the skaters all do both the programs for ISU reason...as scores do count. They could just have two of each discipline... not the exact same as the Olympics but perhaps more so and more fair to Dance and Pairs. I can see the want for "fairness" but it might make the event feel bloated. I also don't find it that unfair as the same number of "people" from each discipline are there... so i can see that side of it in a way.
To be honest I am not a fan of the part of the team event where the country has to pick who gets to skate and who has to skate both programs. Honestly, I kinda wish the Olympic Team event would allow two skaters in all disciplines. If some skaters don't have a second skater/don't want to use them, that is fine, but I don't like picking between discipline who gets two spots and who gets one. I am not looking forward to seeing who USA picks to not get a second medal between men's ladies and dance - that is going to be sad for me. So I would be less than crazy about seeing that again at an event that is supposed to be fun a fun way to end the season.
I agree they should allow different skaters in all disciplines, if desired. I've been posting that opinion whenever it is appropriate, but so far no one has been interested in discussing it.
Doing the team event can be seen as both a plus and a minus: an opportunity for a second (or only) medal, but also can take away from energy/focus of individual competition.
Even if two skaters were allowed in each discipline, there would still be skaters left out of the team event for all those countries/disciplines that have 3 skaters. And pity the poor skater who is left off because a fed chooses to use only one in a discipline when two are available!
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- Joined
- Apr 1, 2015
Yep, they totally rig the event, in a way that allows team Japan to pretty much never win. That's rigging at the highest level.
The reason it's called "ISU" anything, is because the ISU loves money, and they get money from any event that holds their name. The end. There is no other mysterious reason, you can stop looking right away.
Like I said above, but I'll repeat with numerals this time : $1 000 000. No other country than Japan has sponsors willing to spend this much on figure skating. Golf is a sport that generates a massive amount of money worldwide. Skating is a sport that generates a massive amount of money IN JAPAN and pretty much only there.
You realise that even the most prestigious competition of the year, ie : Worlds, is actually giving the winning skaters a ridiculous amount of money in comparison to WTT? At least at WTT, every single skater/team that is present, will get some amount of money. There are no losers in this competition. I don't know what could be more fair than that.
The reason it's basically compulsory is because the sponsors giving away that million dollars actually want some top skaters, to fill up the place they're hosting the event at (which is actually a joke, because it's only compulsory as long as you don't have an injury, which most skater do at the end of the competition year, so withdrawing from this event is actually the easiest thing ever).
And once again, you should have a look at the list of winners for this event when you say "favor one side"? Which side are you even talking about? The USA team would like to have a word with you about changing the format, because they basically win it all the time since they have one of the most well rounded team.
Here, you fail to understand the most basic of the Japanese mindset. They do not care about making something popular outside of their own country. They don't want the WTT to become the Ryder cup. Their sponsors are spending huge amounts of money, because they get something back, from their own country. As far as they are concerned, the sport does NOT need to grow outside of Japan. THEIR skaters are plenty popular all over the world, and they've paid for that already.
Japanese mindset =/= westerner mindset.
I don't know if you mean it that way, but you sound very entitled. As if Japan and the Japanese sponsors owed it to you to try harder to make the sport popular outside of their own country. I don't see any Fed of any country doing that, so once again : why should they ? They do not owe us anything.
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- Mar 3, 2014
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I agree the Oly Team Event could be "evened out" a little, to give everyone a chance. Not only is it random, it seems, who is chosen, but at least in 2014, it was last minute. They did not announce Jason would be skating the LP until after Jeremy finished the SP. Now did Jason know ahead of time? Did they do that because Jeremy bombed the LP? [ETA: *SP]I don't know. And Davis/White and Castelli/Shnapir were the only reps of dance and pairs, since D/W was the reason the Americans were medalling and C/S was so far and away the best pairs team. So the Shibs and Chock/Bates have no medals....
topic:But I am glad there is more skating, I am glad that seven of the top eight men are showing up (and I think Javi would have if he were invited) and I am glad it is just a week away:agree:
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Yes, it is totally and completely rigged at the highest level to improve Japan's chances and help Japan compensate for its weaknesses in ice dance and pairs. It is not rigged enough to guarantee them a win. Don't distort my argument.
This is a sport and this is a competition. If the rules don't allow for a fair competition, I don't care how much money is involved--it's wrong and at minimum, I have a right to voice criticism.
Sure, we totally agree. The ISU loves money. I just find it wrong that they sold their name so cheaply, selling what they shouldn't have.
You are using money as an explanation, as if that's the answer to everything. I am arguing that money is not a justification.
Why should the amount of sponsorship money justify an ISU rule requiring a skater to compete at WTT (or be otherwise banned from earning money by skating in shows during this time)? If a skater does not want to compete, then they should still have the right to skate in shows. The prize money could have and should have been incentive enough. But the ISU requirement leaves bad taste in my mouth, as a figure skating fan and a sports fan.
I've seen the winners before. And I am in favor of a competition format that isn't structured beforehand to favor one side's unique strengths. If it's fairly structured and fairly judged, and one country dominates all the time, fine. The fact that Japan hasn't dominated doesn't mean that this event is fairly structured--like I said, Japan's chances have been improved by this structure, but not even all their strengths in singles can consistently cover for their weaknesses in pairs/dance.
I doubt the USA team would care if the team format changed to something closer to the Olympic team format. It wouldn't be as problematic for them as it would be for Japan.
The failure to understand is all yours. My argument has nothing to do with the Japanese mindset or Westerner mindset. Go back and look at my original post. The Japanese federation can make whatever bogus event with ridiculous rules it wants. But then why should the event include "ISU" in its title? Why should the ISU require skaters to participate?
I will repeat my previous point and say that you've given explanations for this (it's all because of money!), but not justifications (because money is not a justification in itself).
I think the team competition format is interesting and appealing, and this event could help the sport grow and benefit more skaters if it was structured in the right way, hosting switched, etc. That doesn't mean that I'm arguing that the Japanese sponsors need to care about helping the sport grow. I'm saying that if the ISU had its priorities straight, and cared about more than just MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, it would do what's best for the sport and the skaters.
I don't know if YOU mean it that way, but you sound as if you're in favor of MONEY, MONEY, and MORE MONEY, that the Japanese federation gets to do whatever it wants due to its Japanese sponsors. This is such a disgustingly gross argument that I can't believe you keep repeating it.
Japan and its federation owe me nothing, but on the other hand, the ISU, as the sports governing body, has an obligation to ALL of its member federations, to its athletes, and to its fans when it's lending the event the ISU name and REQUIRING skaters to attend. Its failure to live up to its obligations is a disappointment to me. I'm not ashamed for advocating for fair play in a sport, for suggesting changes in the best interest of the sport (though NOT in the best interest of a specific country's sponsors), and to protect the athletes who are destroying their bodies for our enjoyment.
I like some of the ideas shared by others in this thread, such as allowing for 2 representatives in every discipline, or by forming an "international" team composed of skaters from countries that only have one strong skater in a single discipline. But otherwise, sad to see the attitude of "money makes everything okay!" Money does not make everything okay.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2014
I've never liked WTT just because it gives certain athletes a chance to improve their PB/SB when they could've done that earlier in the season especially at Worlds. Oh well, the team money prize is nice though.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2006
Yes, this is my greatest pet peeve re WTT. They give out PB/SBs like candy, which is totally unfair to skaters from smaller feds who cannot participate in this "ISU Event". :noshake:
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- Apr 1, 2015
(only quoting the end for space)
1. You are allowed to voice your opinion, I am allowed to disagree and to explain why I disagree.
I'm not distorting your argument, I'm trying to actually understand it, because it baffles me.
You say that the format favours Japanese singles. Appart from Hanyu and Uno, I don't see any other top single skaters. The USA have Chen and Brow, that's nothing to be ashamed of, and I'd call them top skaters too? China has Jin, Russia has Kovtun and Kolyada... I mean, as far as I'm aware, all these men are really good skaters ?
For the ladies... as far as I'm aware, no Japanese lady even ended up on the podium at Worlds? So how is that system rigged toward them?
I won't even go back to dance and pairs, because, well, we all know why.
I'd really like for you to explain to me how the system is rigged when they basically only have a chance (not even certainty, because if I've learned one thing from FS, it's to never trust any skater to deliver) of putting two men on the podium. Maybe one lady ? And that's a big IF.
So, 3 (at most) out of 6, and that means the system is rigged?
Canada has Chan and Reynolds, both who could podium if they skate clean, plus Daleman, who's a Worlds medalist, plus Weaver/Poje who have major chances of ending up on the podium... that's 4 out of 6... would you say the competiton is rigged toward Canadians then ?
Russia has Medvedeva, which is like, basically a hand down on gold already, no idea what shape Radionova is in, but if in good shape, she's got as many chances of ending up on the podium as any of the Japanese girl. Tarasova/Morozov are world medalists, so I expect them to also podium here. That's 3 out of 6 (and I didn't even count on their dance team or their men, who all have their chance too). Exactly the same as Japan. So the competition must be rigged in their favor I assume ?
Should I talk about the USA and their 4 to 5 out of 6 chances to get a podium finish? Obviously making the system rigged in their favor.
Do you see why I fail to understand your "argument" about the system being rigged toward the Japanese team? If anything, the system is rigged toward the team with th most rounded team. If you can have two podiums out of six, you will always lose to a team that can have 4 (yes, even if these 4 don't have a gold). That's simple math. And math, in this case, is in favour of the USA, and has been for quite some time. Canada isn't far off, nor is Russia. Japan and China only come next.
2. I'm using money as an explanation, because it's exactly what it is. Nobody has to justify themselves to you. Nobody has to prove to you why it is right or wrong to use money as the main part of their system. Money, about anything, anywhere in the whole world, does never require justification, but is always an explanation. That's called capitalism.
3. I don't sound in favour of anything, especially not in favor of money. I hate that sport and money have become so tangled, but I understand that capitalism works that way. Remember, I'm not justifying, I'm explaining, you said it yourself.
Meaning I'm not chosing a side. You want justification because you want something to be right or wrong. I can accept to live in a world where pretty much nothing is right or wrong, because everything is in between, especially depending on where you stand. I don't require to judge based on my own value system, I just require to understand why something is happening.
And that's why I can not agree with the ISU system, which is based on money before anything else, and yet understand that it is so. I don't have to agree to understand.
And you're alo trying to apply your values of right or wrong to me as well. I'm sorry, but I'm not right, and I'm not wrong, and neither are you. I'm just me, with my opinions and my explanations. Because I don't owe it to you to justify myself.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2014
AKA the big countries + the "extras"
It's more annoying that the team scoring is so unfairly divided. I mean, how is this a team competition where the singles discipline could basically win this whole competition?
note: looks like I just repeated what jaylee said in her earlier posts
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- Joined
- Feb 15, 2017
Wow this thread turned...negative.
Derailing!
Anyone other than me actually going to the competition? I'm going to Day 1 and 2 to see Men SP and LP. Anyone interested in a GS meetup?
Derailing!
Anyone other than me actually going to the competition? I'm going to Day 1 and 2 to see Men SP and LP. Anyone interested in a GS meetup?
I think the event choose less pairs and dance teams because the target of the event is Japanese viewer . They are not very interested in those 2 disciplines, they don´t care if Japan win or lose, they only want to watch a last time to their stars. And besides of the money, the skaters should take advantage of this event to get better their status, I mean, reputation, because people always remember the last competition, we all always do predictions based only in the last performance. Ashley, C/B, Nathan, all of them did not have the most impressive performances in Worlds, W/P had finally a good performance, so this could reaffirm it. If in WTT Nathan try and get the 6 quads and win to Yuzu, Nathan will go to the oympic season as a favorite, reputation is very important, even if people consider this competition a cheesefest, a good performance can´t be ignored. With the last performance of Yuzu, he is the only one in danger in this competition. He does not need the money of this event, I don´t know if the organizers are offering him more money, his sponsors are offering more money or he felt morally obligated to participate.
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