World Team Trophy - Day 3

[[email protected]]

what do you mean? the skaters who get medals are the ones skating segments of the competition, not everyone on the team.

there are other sports that do similar team events... for instance, we could look at equestrians...

there are also new formats of relays in all sorts of disciplines including luge and skiing.

The point is that the IOC wants to have more and more team events (as long as they don't mean adding extra athletes) and they also want more and more mixed sports. It's why we see these events coming in year after year and not some others. I am happy that there is a team event at the Olympics because for instance, it encourages nations to develop all disciplines. Look at China for instance, they are slowly starting to build young Ice dance teams and I am pretty sure it's because they want to get closer to the podium for 2022. If they manage to do what they did for pairs, China will be a superpower in skating ! that's awesome!

I also suggested a team event for our GP prediction game

 

[gotoschool]

I wouldn't bet on that... for me, Mai and Satoko are pretty even going into next season. Satoko has been Japanese first for 3 years, but I never felt like the JSF supported her as such like they did with Mao for example. And while she got the silver at WC 2011, her next finish was 6th and Mai's 5th this year was better. If they do equally well next season, I have no idea who the JSF would go with :think: Wakaba is a step behind these two, but if she gets that 3A out there... it's a game changer.

It really is tough that they only have 2 spots :sad21:

The JSF has not done anything to help Mao’s scores or performances, quite the contrary. First, Tatiana Tarasova said that the JSF forced Mao to attend extra training sessions during Vancouver against her demands for Mao to rest ,and it made Tarasova so angry because of the fatigue she claimed it caused that she refused be Mao’s coach afterwards. The JSF also forced Mao to practice in a sandy and bone chilling cold rink in Armenia at high elevation with less oxygen which required her to sharpen her blades and made for very poor practice conditions. They even denied Mao’s term’s requests to practice in far better conditions in Japan and then Russia, which Tarasova offered. Furthermore, Mao had a back injury after Nationals and didn’t begin practicing until mid January, yet she was required to take part in the team competition which took away a lot of time from training, especially with the horrible conditions in Armenia the JSF “arranged.” The salt added to the wound was the foot in mouth maliciousness of the former Japanese PM who publicly humiliated Mao after the JSF was to a considerable degree responsible for her tense state of mind and lack of preparedness for the SP. Given these obstacles, erected by those meant to "support" Mao, it is even more incredible Mao was able to give such a legendary and terribly underscored performance in the long program. Hanyu and Daisuke evidently did not go because of illness and injuries respectively, but Akiko went with Mao. Injuries and illnesses caused a lot of trouble for Mao in her comeback, but so has underscoring and continued lack of support from the JSF.

It would be necessary to get into comments that would cause a lot of confrontation to go through the whole list. But, Mao has consistently received relatively harsher tech calls lower GOE and / or PCS than what she deserved that I believe cost her competition beginning as early as 2007 Worlds, deflation in the Grand Prix Final LP, harsh relative underscoring at 2012 4CC’s and Vancouver and 2010 Worlds and as others have mentioned PCS and tech in Finlandia 2016. One of the techniques has been to bring in ethnic Japanese tech callers as "cover" to make the harshest and most bogus calls, including Amano at Worlds 2010, 4CC’s 2012 and Grand Prix Final 2013 SP, in which he even said that he would not have made the ur call on Mao’s triple axel, which is basically a confession that pressure was put on him from outside to do so.

The JSF did nothing to protect Mao from the idiot who yelled at the top of his lungs for Mao to fall on the entrance to her second triple axel in the Worlds LP 2009, which could clearly be heard over the music. In fact, it wasn’t mentioned at all and there was no recourse of justice for this obvious interference. And then I came across comments from some people who were there who wondered why Mao was scored so low at the competition even with the interference.

Then, there is the underscoring of Mao’s Sochi LP and Worlds 2016 LP, and contrary to remarks about the bogus skating order argument which is like giving a baseball team that loses the first game in a series a penalty of a few runs in two subsequent game, other skaters have received the highest PCS skating outside the final group. Besides, this doesn’t account for Mao’s deflated GOE and overly harsh or bogus tech calls relative to the competition which happened at these two events and even at Worlds 2014. At Worlds 2014, a non-Asian judging panel originally gave Mao’s triple axel a +1.6 GOE and her triple flip and loop a +1.2 GOE which were ironically the highest GOE on any of her jumps, yet she received ur calls for this. Mao didn’t receive the highest PCS scores or GOE either despite having the greatest rink coverage on jumps, intricate transitions and the cleanest performances overall. A thread on this forum gave many posts about how deflated Mao’s Worlds 2016 LP score was and the comments on her videos are full of ridicule for the underscoring and praise for the performance. As for the SOchi LP, the IOC removed Mao’s most watched Sochi LP video likely because it had so many views, so much praise for Mao's performance and so much ridicule for the scoring that there was a need to remove it to manipulate and deflate the view count so that it corresponded to the deflated scoring. Why else would the performances of other skaters remain untouched.

Mao has consistently gotten ur calls for jumps with as much and often more rotation than others that are not called, the same goes for edge calls and this in addition to deflated GOE and PCS at Nationals and international competitions.

 

[MaiKatze]

well it's true that Mai and Wakaba is overscored much, but so is Zhenya, do you really think she can get perfect 10 in PE, 78 PCS, 3 perfect 2.1 GOE for her jumps? and other almost perfect bonus for TES in other competition? she never achieved perfect 3's in her jumps element before. i think why Elena, Gabby and Ashley didnt get such fabricated score is because they have small mistakes here and there. unlike the other 3 who are completely clean.

edit: well after looking at it, they do get a bit boost in PCS, like Ashley usually get 68, except for Worlds 2016 in USA where she get 73. Also Elena never got 70 before. Gabby also get 70 for the 1st time, but she scored 69 before like Elena. it is nothing outrageous like the other 3 tho

I still think Anna wouldn't have profited from the overscoring that was WTT. She really didn't help her case with her downfall at Worlds. I bet the judges will be twice as strict with her now. And there are politics. I doubt anyone wants two Russians on the podium of the Olympics. A sweep - impossible. Gotta keep everyone else's scores low now, so that won't happen.

 

[Ares]

I still can't get over Medvedeva's LP score Not even 2 x 3A from any lady could challenge that I am afraid :disapp: But maybe they'd cool off little bit with those overscoring-everything for her if there was someone with potentially stronger technical arsenal. I am naive perhaps, but if she was still winning vs someone with everything + 3A than it could create some evidential, collective uproar at least so it would have to change something.

To be honest the other few ladies were overscored too (mostly PCS like Mai, well maybe everyone was overscored even if they skated well) but not too such a shocking extent. Evgenia is untouchable as it stands now.

http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20170422/1119444281.html

The Russian fed is unhappy with the way he performed, and it was pretty clear from his social media that he wasn't seriously preparing for the competition. Yes, it's not the most important event, but other skaters would have at least made a better effort and it's not fair to the rest of the team.

I've read rumours about Kovtun's questionable work ethic and even laziness before ...

 

[MaiKatze]

I still can't get over Medvedeva's LP score Not even 2 x 3A from any lady could challenge that I am afraid :disapp: But maybe they'd cool off little bit with those overscoring-everything for her if there was someone with potentially stronger technical arsenal. I am naive perhaps.

It's just simply another era now...people still keep comparing the scores of Vancouver or even Sochi with what happened here, and that makes no sense....we all know these skates are not THAT much better now. But honestly was Evgenia better here than at Worlds, inflation included? If the judges keep inflating scores in the Olympic Season, okay... (they usually peak at the Olympics) But where do you go from a score from over 160 in the pre Olympic season? Will they ding her down next season, in the Olympic Season? Or will she score 170 at the GPF? 180 at the Olympics? These are scores the men usually get with quads. What is even the max score for Ladies?

 

[TT_Fin]

I do not hate Evgenia, or I do not have anything against her and she really has deserved her every wins. But for me it is a problem, she goes very deep on her other legs knee after jumps and gets +3. No other skater get so high quality scores for that kind of jumps. It is not Evgenia's fault, it the weirdness of judgning. And the arm up, too much and her position is not good. Skaters in much lower level can do the same thing to raise their hand and jump clean. That may cause her extra points, but is it worth, if even novice skaters do it. They just miss many other things. I hope skaters stop doing it, at least stop doing it during every jump.

 

[atsumiri]

But for me it is a problem, she goes very deep on her other legs knee after jumps and gets +3. No other skater get so high quality scores for that kind of jumps. It is not Evgenia's fault, it the weirdness of judgning. And the arm up, too much and her position is not good. Skaters in much lower level can do the same thing to raise their hand and jump clean. That may cause her extra points, but is it worth, if even novice skaters do it. They just miss many other things. I hope skaters stop doing it, at least stop doing it during every jump.

doesn't agree at all. Her jump is so light. Her landing done with such ease and quiet. She takes off so lightly and lands even more lightly, and it’s very natural! And after this light (for ex.) 3f - RBO landing to RBO counter into little clockwise waltz jump landing with free foot in front. So yes. Her landing is almost perfect.
and NOBODY in ladies lends jumps like Evgenia does.... nobody.. personally I hate the heavy and scratchy landing like most of the girls have.... :disapp:

Evgenia is putting quality skate after quality skate. And as I said before I think she does it so much that people don't even appreciate it. shame..... She is working her butt off in every training. Showing her best in every practice... ( can you imagine how hard is she traning to show such a quality skate every single time? ... )

And about tano rippons... haha
If it were that easy, many more skaters would be doing it. But I don't see it...
This is old talk, for two seasons now at least, yet somehow it just does not seem to be spreading. And it's not spreading because it is not easy to do, far from it. (Same with backloading...)

 

[skatenewbie]

The JSF has not done anything to help Mao’s scores or performances, quite the contrary. First, Tatiana Tarasova said that the JSF forced Mao to attend extra training sessions during Vancouver against her demands for Mao to rest ,and it made Tarasova so angry because of the fatigue she claimed it caused that she refused be Mao’s coach afterwards. The JSF also forced Mao to practice in a sandy and bone chilling cold rink in Armenia at high elevation with less oxygen which required her to sharpen her blades and made for very poor practice conditions. They even denied Mao’s term’s requests to practice in far better conditions in Japan and then Russia, which Tarasova offered. Furthermore, Mao had a back injury after Nationals and didn’t begin practicing until mid January, yet she was required to take part in the team competition which took away a lot of time from training, especially with the horrible conditions in Armenia the JSF “arranged.” The salt added to the wound was the foot in mouth maliciousness of the former Japanese PM who publicly humiliated Mao after the JSF was to a considerable degree responsible for her tense state of mind and lack of preparedness for the SP. Given these obstacles, erected by those meant to "support" Mao, it is even more incredible Mao was able to give such a legendary and terribly underscored performance in the long program. Hanyu and Daisuke evidently did not go because of illness and injuries respectively, but Akiko went with Mao. Injuries and illnesses caused a lot of trouble for Mao in her comeback, but so has underscoring and continued lack of support from the JSF.

It would be necessary to get into comments that would cause a lot of confrontation to go through the whole list. But, Mao has consistently received relatively harsher tech calls lower GOE and / or PCS than what she deserved that I believe cost her competition beginning as early as 2007 Worlds, deflation in the Grand Prix Final LP, harsh relative underscoring at 2012 4CC’s and Vancouver and 2010 Worlds and as others have mentioned PCS and tech in Finlandia 2016. One of the techniques has been to bring in ethnic Japanese tech callers as "cover" to make the harshest and most bogus calls, including Amano at Worlds 2010, 4CC’s 2012 and Grand Prix Final 2013 SP, in which he even said that he would not have made the ur call on Mao’s triple axel, which is basically a confession that pressure was put on him from outside to do so.

The JSF did nothing to protect Mao from the idiot who yelled at the top of his lungs for Mao to fall on the entrance to her second triple axel in the Worlds LP 2009, which could clearly be heard over the music. In fact, it wasn’t mentioned at all and there was no recourse of justice for this obvious interference.

Then, there is the underscoring of Mao’s Sochi LP and Worlds 2016 LP, and contrary to remarks about the bogus skating order argument which is like giving a baseball team that loses the first game in a series a penalty of a few runs in two subsequent game, other skaters have received the highest PCS skating outside the final group. Besides, this doesn’t account for Mao’s deflated GOE and overly harsh or bogus tech calls relative to the competition which happened at these two events and even at Worlds 2014. At Worlds 2014, a non-Asian judging panel originally gave Mao’s triple axel a +1.6 GOE and her triple flip and loop a +1.2 GOE which were ironically the highest GOE on any of her jumps, yet she received ur calls for this. Mao didn’t receive the highest PCS scores or GOE either despite having the greatest rink coverage on jumps, intricate transitions and the cleanest performances overall. A thread on this forum gave many posts about how deflated Mao’s Worlds 2016 LP score was and the comments on her videos are full of ridicule for the underscoring and praise for the performance. As for the SOchi LP, the IOC removed Mao’s most watched Sochi LP video likely because it had so many views, so much praise for Mao's performance and so much ridicule for the scoring that there was a need to remove it to manipulate and deflate the view count so that it corresponded to the deflated scoring. Why else would the performances of other skaters remain untouched.

Mao has consistently gotten ur calls for jumps with as much and often more rotation than others that are not called, the same goes for edge calls and this in addition to deflated GOE and PCS at Nationals and international competitions.

this is so true, Mao often get unnecessary UR calls, and underscored in PCS, it is unbelievable that she only very few times broke 70 TES, because of "always call" on her 3A and 3F 3Lo, also her 2Lo in combo also often get UR. the only time she recieved 70+ PCS from what i remember is only 2014 WC. i think she really deserved to be treat like Carolina, who always have high PCS even when she underperform, because she still always get the artistic side and a joy to watch.

 

[TontoK]

doesn't agree at all. Her jump is so light. Her landing done with such ease and quiet. She takes off so lightly and lands even more lightly, and it’s very natural! And after this light (for ex.) 3f - RBO landing to RBO counter into little clockwise waltz jump landing with free foot in front. So yes. Her landing is almost perfect.
and NOBODY in ladies lends jumps like Evgenia does.... nobody.. personally I hate the heavy and scratchy landing like most of the girls have.... :disapp:

Evgenia is putting quality skate after quality skate. And as I said before I think she does it so much that people don't even appreciate it. shame..... She is working her butt off in every training. Showing her best in every practice... ( can you imagine how hard is she traning to show such a quality skate every single time? ... )

And about tano rippons... haha
If it were that easy, many more skaters would be doing it. But I don't see it...
This is old talk, for two seasons now at least, yet somehow it just does not seem to be spreading. And it's not spreading because it is not easy to do, far from it. (Same with backloading...)

I'm neither a hater nor a fan of Evgenia.

But, as an "agnostic" on her skating, I will admit that I like her competitive spirit... she delivers when it counts... and I like that her jumps are FULLY rotated. I can't remember when there's been any question about whether her jumps got all the way around.

I don't consider her to be an all-time great, but she is clearly the best in this cycle. Clearly. No doubts. While I think the scoring can be suspect, she deserves these wins she's racking up.

 

[Zora]

Evgenia is putting quality skate after quality skate. And as I said before I think she does it so much that people don't even appreciate it. shame.....

I agree with that. I think Evgenia's biggest flaw is, she makes everything look so easy that people start to think it actually is.

 

[chairmanmao]

she does more transitions in and out every single elements and does tano/rippon for jumps. She is in full control over every single elements. not just jumps. spins, stsq. ALL of them!

I pity the haters of Medvedeva that they fail to appreciate how vastly superior she is to Mihara and Higuchi. These girls are not even Miyahara level well Mihara is much less Honda or the ethereal Mao Asada. Higuchi in particular is especially disjointed and sloppy that I find it amusing and insulting that there are people who see her as the one to challenge Medvedeva.

 

[TontoK]

As I said, I'm no hater. She's not a favorite of mine, but there is plenty about her skating to admire.

Surely she's the Olympic favorite, although I will caveat that by saying that the Russian Federation has shown several times that it will not prop up any skater.

If she doesn't deliver in the coming year, I can absolutely see them dropping her.

In her favor, I think she's probably weathered the late teen growth years, and I don't anticipate she'll falter. But if she does...

 

[MaiKatze]

As I said, I'm no hater. She's not a favorite of mine, but there is plenty about her skating to admire.

Surely she's the Olympic favorite, although I will caveat that by saying that the Russian Federation has shown several times that it will not prop up any skater.

If she doesn't deliver in the coming year, I can absolutely see them dropping her.

In her favor, I think she's probably weathered the late teen growth years, and I don't anticipate she'll falter. But if she does...

Barring injury or illness Med's gold is a done deal....I thought that perhaps Zagitova could challenge her, after seeing her scores at Russian Nationals, but Zagitova hasn't got 3 senior seasons backing her up when the Olympics happen. Her PCS cannot rise as fast as it is needed to challenge Med.

I agree though, that the Russian Fed doesn't seem particularly smitten with Med. I hope that at least next season she will do a Home Grand Prix with CoR. Idk, if we're going by crowd reaction I think Radionova and Lipnitskaia are the most beloved Russian girls, of those currently competing.

 

[TontoK]

Barring injury or illness Med's gold is a done deal....I thought that perhaps Zagitova could challenge her, after seeing her scores at Russian Nationals, but Zagitova hasn't got 3 senior seasons backing her up when the Olympics happen. Her PCS cannot rise as fast as it is needed to challenge Med.

I agree though, that the Russian Fed doesn't seem particularly smitten with Med. I hope that at least next season she will do a Home Grand Prix with CoR. Idk, if we're going by crowd reaction I think Radionova and Lipnitskaia are the most beloved Russian girls, of those currently competing.

I don't think it has anything to do with whether they are smitten with her or not. It has to do with whether she can maintain the level of her skating.

The Russian tundra is littered with ladies singles skaters who have won major international medals, but didn't stack up the following year.

It is a very competitive field, and the Russian Fed will go with who has the hot hand. (An American basketball reference.)

 

[beki]

Which country won the team spirit award?

 

[Dee4707]

Morgan is emotional, no doubt but keeps in bounds.... And, Vanessa is lighthearted, positive; she understands him completely... This is why they are SO good together!! Like fire and air....

I think they are becoming my favorite team along with Japanese team.

 

[NoNameFace]

looking at comments...out of curiosity, do you guys are expecting that every single member of this forum will post here their acknowledgement written about Medvedeva's victory? Good luck with that. You can play name game and call everyone there 'haters', but I'd recommend to look closer - and eventually understand - that majority of comments considered as 'hateful' are about scoring/judging and choreography, not Medvedeva herself. And even with those comments/opinions, she seems totally unfazed, powering through competition after competition. And there goes of course personal preference, simple as it is - some of you are having a hard time it seems to comprehend that there are actually multiple skaters competing and there is no obligation to like only this one with highest score and just because of winning fact. And what's wrong with some people don't agreeing with judges, is it the first time in history it happens? And this lack of agreement is mostly on general scale, not on result itself...

Actually, there is a difference between acknowledging the results and individual reception of the performance, especially in comparison with others. There are multiple factors to be considered and some of them are valued more than others by different people. For some, technical ability, consistence means everything and perfection of that projects onto other aspects; for others - they can separate technical acknowledgement and personal preferences towards performance, packaging, expression; some on the other hand cannot separate their individual 'standard'/aesthetic preferred from actual performance and it ruins for them even the most crystal clean skate. Medvedeva is obviously chosen as the one for judges and is seen by them as one to set a standard - does it mean that she ought to be 'the one' for all watching and be that 'standard' for them? I don't think so.

And for me, the real problem of the situation - leaving scoring/judging disputes and scale of them aside - is not this presumed 'lack of appreciation' for Medvedeva, but lack of understanding that there's no obligation for doing that. Saying that, same goes either way regarding 'hateful' comments addressing Medvedeva as a person especially - that's not under 'common control', if someone has no shame to post things below acceptable level, it's on that person, not on Medvedeva. But the reality is that unless some people will understand the difference between critic and hate and the exact direction of it and unless there will be understanding that there is no obligation imposed to praise winners - only them, always them, the unnecessary venom will grow. Sometimes I think that actual skating, skaters are not even important in those kind of 'discussions' when personal convictions come out to play leading role.

 

[moriel]

Well people get a bit meh about criticism, because, for example, many so called critics complain about Medvedeva being overscored, but forget that, in no world, Mai and Wakaba should be receiving those scores either. For instance, see Satoko`s program at GPF. She got 70 Pcs for that. Mai and Wakaba got 76 and 75 respectively here. Mai got 63 PCs at worlds for her free. Just saying.

As most critics just go straight ahead to bash Medvedeva and complain about her score, and not just rant on wttinflation, it makes them look like haters.

 

[sallycinnamon]

Which country won the team spirit award?

To me it was Team Russia. They were both very supporting and funny in the k & c most of the time.

 

[Hannah555]

To me it was Team Russia. They were both very supporting and funny in the k & c most of the time.

Agree. And their introduction and gala performance were also very good.