Pairs & Dance Teams with Citizenship Issues

[Andrea82]

An official with the Korea Skating Union (KSU) said the justice ministry approved Alexander Gamelin's application for special naturalization last Thursday.


http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2017/07/31/0200000000AEN20170731003400315.html

Here's Alex posing with his new passport

https://www.instagram.com/p/BXXRd8JHsQX/?taken-by=instagamelin

 

[SnowWhite]

In the new interview with Ted Flett, Lubov and Dylan said they're confident that she'll have her citizenship in time for the Olympics.

 

[Moxiejan]

Did Bruno get his citizenship? Last I heard, he still needed to pass part of the language test.

Isn't the deadline to get citizenship for Olympics in mid-September?

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Did Bruno get his citizenship? Last I heard, he still needed to pass part of the language test.

Isn't the deadline to get citizenship for Olympics in mid-September?

No to both questions.

 

[SnowWhite]

Did Bruno get his citizenship? Last I heard, he still needed to pass part of the language test.

Isn't the deadline to get citizenship for Olympics in mid-September?

I don't believe so. Tanith Belbin got her US citizenship on December 31st 2005 and competed at the 2006 Games, for example. I might have heard something about a September deadline for countries to say whether they'll use their spots (at least in figure skating) and citizenships plays a role in that.

 

[karne]

Did Bruno get his citizenship? Last I heard, he still needed to pass part of the language test.

Isn't the deadline to get citizenship for Olympics in mid-September?

No, it's when entries close. January sometime.

 

[Chemistry66]

Did Bruno get his citizenship? Last I heard, he still needed to pass part of the language test.

Isn't the deadline to get citizenship for Olympics in mid-September?

No. Countries DO have to "confirm use of allocated quota places to ISU" by September 15th (so the ISU can figure out, at least initially, extra spots that will be available at Nebelhorn), but a country can intend to use the spot even if their entry doesn't have confirmed citizenship yet. Then Nebelhorn spot-earning countries have to confirm their usage by October 30th (assuming so that the ISU can reallocate unused spots to reserve countries). But ACTUAL named entries aren't due until January 29th 2018 (06:00 Korean time) so countries presumably have until around then to actually figure things out. I figure the ISU will probably be aware of which entries earning spots have the potential for late-in-the-game citizenship confirmation and will monitor progress somewhat.


Here's the qualification document in case you want a link

 

[lyverbird1]

If only figure skating was as easy as athletics (yes, a flippant remark as I appreciate different nations are involved). Watching the World Athletics Championships recently, I struggled initially with the seemingly easy interchanging of nationalities of many of the competing athletes, particularly with many east African athletes competing for Turkey, Middle Eastern or other European countries but gradually accepted that if the athletes are that good and should be at championships as the best in the world at what they do, why should an artificial construct such as nationality get in the way? It's an interesting geo-political topic....

 

[4everchan]

If only figure skating was as easy as athletics (yes, a flippant remark as I appreciate different nations are involved). Watching the World Athletics Championships recently, I struggled initially with the seemingly easy interchanging of nationalities of many of the competing athletes, particularly with many east African athletes competing for Turkey, Middle Eastern or other European countries but gradually accepted that if the athletes are that good and should be at championships as the best in the world at what they do, why should an artificial construct such as nationality get in the way? It's an interesting geo-political topic....

well.... it's not the sport that is the issue... it's each federation. For instance, one of the countries that is very rigid when it comes to giving citizenship is Denmark. We have seen it with Laurence and Nik. Well, read the story of Wilson Kipketer. Kenyan runner, he visited Denmark as a foreign exchange student and decided to stay and live there.... Despite being the best runner in his field in 1996, he still wasn't allowed to go to Atlanta games because he was not yet a Danish citizen.... only 4 years later, and mind you, he had been living there for a while... he was allowed to go to the games.

The main obstacle for Laurence here is that she doesn't train nor live in Denmark and has never done so. I guess it's easier if you are a track athlete to find a coach almost anywhere in the world.... compared to ice dance but I wouldn't blame the sport. If Nik had applied for Canadian citizenship, he would have gotten it, but he still wouldn't have been able to go to the games.... as well.. there are 3 strong teams ahead of them.... but the main issue here is that figure skaters care more about their training camp, than getting citizenship.

I.E. Mervin and Marissa could certainly leave Montreal and train in the USA to facilitate their status..... Canadian guys training with Japanese girls in pairs know well ahead of time that they will never go to the games.... they train because they love their sport and get (perhaps) funded (I assume) better training for nations in need of developing pairs or dance for instance....

BTW : in the case of the Japanese federation (and others with weak discipline filled by international couple), they are making a huge mistake : they need to build a national center for pair training, hiring a coach from Russia, China or Canada..... that way, they could provide a center where their own athletes would train at least part of the year.... and if they lack in men like in Japanese pairs, they would at least be able to provide the option for a skater like Francis to perhaps relocate.... IMHO : I doubt Francis would leave Montreal either way...but without any option to train seriously in Japan.... what can one do? The Nebelhorn qualifier is making me smirk. Japan is sending its top pair team... though if they qualify, they will only be able to send a weak pair to the games...

On the other hand, Alexia Paganini is now representing Switzerland, and as far as I know... she was representing the USA until recently.... so again, it's not necessarily the sport that is the issue but the countries

 

[TontoK]

Wading back into the discussion:

I'm sure we all want our favorites to compete, but some basic level of fairness (beyond skating) has to be taken into account.

It seems to me to be unfair that an athlete would merit "special consideration" in determining citizenship. Why should a skater (or any athlete) be allowed to leapfrog ahead of others? Why not a doctor? Or teacher? Or carpenter?

One case being discussed is a skater who neither lives nor trains in the country she's seeking to become a citizen. I don't know if she has any ties to the country at all, other than her skating partner is a citizen.

Finally, it is not the job of the ISU or the IOC to adjudicate citizenship issues for member countries. It shouldn't be their concern that gaining citizenship is easy in one country and hard in another.

And while I'm aware that suitable partners don't always grow on trees, especially for smaller federations, it seems like ambitions such as becoming an Olympian (and the obstacles inherent in international partnerships) should be considered up front.

 

[Ice Dance]

And while I'm aware that suitable partners don't always grow on trees, especially for smaller federations, it seems like ambitions such as becoming an Olympian (and the obstacles inherent in international partnerships) should be considered up front.

Oh, I agree with everything you said. But life does not always work out as planned. People fall in love. They exceed their initial goals & timetables. They dream new dreams as they go along. They run into unplanned obstacles. They do not always get the full scoop when asking about likely roadblocks to the future. And changing politics change citizenship and federation rules & timetables.

When an athlete finds a partner, they can't know if that partnership will be successful or if it will last. This is something that comes with time. And they can't know which countries will have great depth four or eight or twelve years down the road. They can't know which countries will face war, economic hardship, or the elimination of sports funding. Or what new political roadblocks will bar their path toward citizenship and federation status in the future.

So, yes, I very much agree that athletes should go into a new international partnership with their eyes open. But they also go in with a leap of faith. Acknowledging that finding the right partner is the most important element within a successful pairs or dance career. If the partnership is unsuccessful, we never hear the story. But when the partnership is successful, that's when it isn't worth giving up on. When it is worth telling the story, finding a new avenue, or even just breaking down barriers for the team(s) that come after you.

People of needed professions do leapfrog forward in the citizenship process in many countries.

 

[TGee]

Wading back into the discussion:

I'm sure we all want our favorites to compete, but some basic level of fairness (beyond skating) has to be taken into account.

It seems to me to be unfair that an athlete would merit "special consideration" in determining citizenship. Why should a skater (or any athlete) be allowed to leapfrog ahead of others? Why not a doctor? Or teacher? Or carpenter?

One case being discussed is a skater who neither lives nor trains in the country she's seeking to become a citizen. I don't know if she has any ties to the country at all, other than her skating partner is a citizen.

Yes, countries definitely do need to set their own standards and establish their own processes for citizenship.

That said, most have moved from a genetic 'you are what your father was' idea of citizenship that existed half a century ago.

[Which for many Canadians meant we had at least two citizenships.....our citizenship 'by descent' from our parents' or grandparents' European country of birth and our Canadian one by birth...]

Instead, countries have visions of how their societies can ideally integrate newcomers to enrich them in diverse ways : economically, culturally, and athletically.

In countries that are seeking economic immigrants, many have criteria for immigration, permanent residency and citizenship that look at credentials and experience that are needed by the country. And if the country needs knowledge workers or skilled trades they are advantaged.

Canada for example has had a 'points system' since the 1970s for people seeking to immigrate as permanent residents [with the ability to become citizens after 3 years residency]. And the value of various skills and experience changes based on assessments of the gaps the Canadian labour force.

There are also tracks for temporary workers who are less skilled, but if they are successful in Canada they may be able apply to move on to permanent residence based on their experience in Canada. Likewise, international students studying in Canada are viewed as likely to be successful and have track toward permanent residency and citizenship.

Lubov Ilyushechkina's priortization for citizenship as a national team member [or Kaitlyn Weaver and Piper Gilles citizenships] have to be understood in this context. And, I would argue that ethnic and racial diversity in a countries athletes makes a significant and positive contribution in paving the way for acceptance and integration of other immigrants who are not of a country's majority ethnicity or race.

[And as an aside I note that many also recognize that in addition to a moral and humanitarian duty to welcome refugees, and recognize that they enrich their communities and contribute to thriving societies.]

 

[blue eyed birds]

And for Fournier Beaudry/Sorensen, Laurence does have stronger personal ties to Denmark than, say, Mervin or Francis have had to Japan: she and Nikolaj are a long-time off-ice couple who have indicated that they plan to marry. She's learning the Danish language. Any children would themselves be Danish through lineage (and possibly by birth if they move there after retirement). But even marriage wouldn't do much to improve her own chances at citizenship, and not in any way that would help their odds at reaching the Olympics. While I could see where the IOC wasn't necessarily eager to make an exceptional case for them, it is clear how vastly different policies are from nation to nation here, and sometimes even for an athlete who could have some reasonably good claims.​

 

[Andrea82]

Lubov Ilyushechkina received Canadian citizenship today.

Moscovitch run an Instagram Live from the ceremony when she took the oath less than an hour ago.

 

[4everchan]

Lubov Ilyushechkina received Canadian citizenship today.

Moscovitch run an Instagram Live from the ceremony when she took the oath less than an hour ago.

yes!

 

[nimi]

Bumping this thread because there's some related discussion going on in Nebelhorn threads...

Here's the new link to the ISU Olympic qualification document: http://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links/isu-files/event-documents/olympic-games/2018-pyeongchang/qualification-systems/7566-qualification-system-figure-skating-v11/file
(The recent ISU site redesign has killed a lot of useful links in older posts...)

 

[nimi]

Did Bruno get his citizenship? Last I heard, he still needed to pass part of the language test.

Yesterday I heard that he failed part of the exam (again) and has to retake it (again). He passed the oral part earlier in the summer, it's one of the written parts that's giving him trouble.

The exam in question is likely the "Zertifikat Deutsch" Level B1 (Intermediate). If there are people here familiar with how the exam system works, e.g. how soon after failing a part of it you can retake it, please let us know!

 

[lappo]

Yesterday I heard that he failed part of the exam (again) and has to retake it (again). He passed the oral part earlier in the summer, it's one of the written parts that's giving him trouble.

The exam in question is likely the "Zertifikat Deutsch" Level B1 (Intermediate). If there are people here familiar with how the exam system works, e.g. how soon after failing a part of it you can retake it, please let us know!

I did it in my country (Italy) when I was in secondary school. If rules haven't changed I think you can take the exams every time there is a session (here is once a month, I bet in Germany you can find them more often), you only have to pay a small fee. The exam includes a written part (you have to write a text on a given subject), a listening part (listen several conversations and answer questions), a grammar part and an oral part.
Now, written German is not easy at all! And it may also be that they are a bit harsher when you do the text in Germany, since you are meant to live and work there, than if you do it in other countries (in Italy the study of German language in secondary schools is disappearing in favour of Spanish and of rising languages such as Arab or Chinese).

 

[nimi]

I did it in my country (Italy) when I was in secondary school. If rules haven't changed I think you can take the exams every time there is a session (here is once a month, I bet in Germany you can find them more often), you only have to pay a small fee.

Well, this is encouraging! There are still months left in this year...
But I sure hope he'll pass the exam the next time around.

 

[Jana]

Hello, do you know something about Lucie MYSLIVECKOVA / Lukas CSOLLEY (Ice dance, SVK)? Has Lucie already got Slovakian citizenship?