2017 GPF Ladies SP

[Yatagarasu]

I'm just making a very specific fairness based argument. This is not about her jumps in general. Rather, if there's a rule on the books (any rule) and it is never enforced but then it is suddenly enforced against one individual that is generally seen as unfair. If the ISU want to move in the direction of penalizing PR I think they have to make an announcement and give folks notice.

Again, I am just mentioning this because I keep seeing the word fairness brought up over and over. Be careful with that word.

Not really. Why does Satoko Miyahara take precedent over all the other skaters? Why is she the one to matter?

It's unfair to the other skaters her errors aren't being called, and it's not their problem she is relying on people not following the rules. Correcting that unfairness is a victory for the sport, and everyone else who had to live with her being favored for multiple seasons.

 

[anyanka]

That's the issue of getting people to go with the reasoning of "let them have their moment". It always comes at the expense of someone else's moment.

Speaking of political choices, check out the 2005 Japan ladies results. Suguri won that year and went. Mao was 2nd but age-ineligible so stayed home, despite winning GPF. Shizuka was 3rd and got the next spot (and of course won the title). For the last spot, both #4 Yoshie Onda, and #5 Yukari Nakano, who were eligible, were both passed over in favour of Miki Ando, who was 6th(!!!) and got to go to Torino!!! Not to bash Miki but how did that happen? Thread going a bit sideways at the moment but that's another example of how political the choices are and what JSF prefers. (Let's not get into the 2014 US nationals ... )

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Frank Carroll has also said that all jumps involve some pre-rotation and that the harder the jump, the more pre-rotation there is.

Has he really said that? I can't imagine that tbh, because it's pretty blatant nonsense. A 3Lz is harder then a 3Lo, but the loop has definitely more pre-rotation (when both are done correctly, that is).
Or does he mean from singles to doubles to triples to quads? Hasn't said "hi" to Boyangs & Mikhails 4Lz's then I guess.

 

[GGFan]

Not really. Why does Satoko Miyahara take precedent over all the other skaters? Why is she the one to matter?

It's unfair to the other skaters her errors aren't being called, and it's not their problem she is relying on people not following the rules. Correcting that unfairness is a victory for the sport, and everyone else who had to live with her being favored for multiple seasons.

You're misunderstanding my process based argument. If today all of a sudden all of Shoma's jumps got -3s and we went to the judges and they said it was because of PR that's unfair: 1) the rule was never interpreted that way, 2) there was a sudden change to the interpretation without warning.

If the ISU wants to start interpreting the rule differently then an announcement needs to be made. This is just about procedural due process, which is one of the definitions of fairness, and has nothing to do with Satoko specifically.

 

[jenaj]

Has he really said that? I can't imagine that tbh, because it's pretty blatant nonsense. A 3Lz is harder then a 3Lo, but the loop has definitely more pre-rotation (when both are done correctly, that is).
Or does he mean from singles to doubles to triples to quads? Hasn't said "hi" to Boyangs & Mikhails 4Lz's then I guess.

https://icoachskating.com/jump-principles-speed-and-pre-rotation-frank-carroll/

 

[yyyskate]

Has he really said that? I can't imagine that tbh, because it's pretty blatant nonsense. A 3Lz is harder then a 3Lo, but the loop has definitely more pre-rotation (when both are done correctly, that is).
Or does he mean from singles to doubles to triples to quads? Hasn't said "hi" to Boyangs & Mikhails 4Lz's then I guess.

as for as I know, Frank Carroll prefer minimal pre-rotation jump technique, the so-called old-schooled text-book technique.

 

[Shayuki]

Has he really said that? I can't imagine that tbh, because it's pretty blatant nonsense. A 3Lz is harder then a 3Lo, but the loop has definitely more pre-rotation (when both are done correctly, that is).
Or does he mean from singles to doubles to triples to quads? Hasn't said "hi" to Boyangs & Mikhails 4Lz's then I guess.

3Lz or 3F done properly involves no pre-rotation at all. The pick's completely still until it leaves the ice.

IIRC Kolyada's is a great example. Though he puts so much power into it he can't really control the landing.

 

[birdseye]

https://imgur.com/a/dIcA1 - See Carolina's forward takeoff on a loop
https://imgur.com/a/zKF4Y - Midori Ito's forward takeoff on a lutz
https://imgur.com/a/p6Y3m - Irina Slustkaya's forward takeoff on a lutz

Everyone pre-rotates, just because you haven't noticed it, doesn't mean it didn;t happen. Satoko's is more accentuated because of her overall technique needs work. She hasn't discovered some secret underhanded way to use physics to her advantage and cheat her way to avoiding an under-rotation call because in fact, every skater completes about 180 degrees of rotation on the ice before the fully completed takeoff. If you watch closely on all jumps as the weight distribution shifts and the shoulders release to create torque, that the rotation will begin before leaving the ice. It's just how jumping works. Don't like it watch another sport (dirty little secret though prerotation exists in gymnastics too :shocked: ). If you're curious about what the 'pre-rotation' clause in the ISU manual was talking about, go watch one of kimmie Meissner's old 3-3 combos.You 'll notice that the momentum of the jump stops and she will literally step forward into the toeloop (thus a toe-axel).

 

[SimplyLex]

People should really not be so harsh to skaters, it´s the judges that give the scores and if they feel she is doing something wrong, then they will tell her that.

You really have a lot of faith in the judges.
You can seriously watch that gif of Satoko's combo and say that there was no PR or UR there?

I don't think people should blame her for not getting her jumps called though, let's blame the tech panel instead.

 

[Shayuki]

https://imgur.com/a/dIcA1 - See Carolina's forward takeoff on a loop
https://imgur.com/a/dIcA1 - Midori Ito's forward takeoff on a lutzhttps://imgur.com/a/dIcA1 - Irina Slustkaya's forward takeoff on a lutz

Everyone pre-rotates, just because you haven't noticed it, doesn't mean it didn;t happen.

Wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjhUQIZUufs&t=274

Zero pre-rotation(watch at 1/4).

 

[eugene]

Could anybody explain me why Wakaba got -0.3 for her 3F! and Kaetlyn earned +0.8 for her 3Lz! ???

I suspect Italian (J8) and Canadian (J9) judges made an agreement to give Kaetlyn and Caro generous GOEs and PCS. Instead they gave such a stingy score for Wakaba...

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Not really. Why does Satoko Miyahara take precedent over all the other skaters? Why is she the one to matter?

It's unfair to the other skaters her errors aren't being called, and it's not their problem she is relying on people not following the rules. Correcting that unfairness is a victory for the sport, and everyone else who had to live with her being favored for multiple seasons.

I agree that her jumps dont look good, but the problem is that prerotation call is not stated in the rules as something to be penalized by tech panel. The panel of judges should penalize it in GOE, and i think Satokos GOE on jumps should be much lower, but the problem is that every individual judge cant see everytime so clearly the corner where Satoko is jumping

 

[solar]

Could anybody explain me why Wakaba got -0.3 for her 3F! and Kaetlyn earned +0.8 for her 3Lz! ???

I suspect Italian (J8) and Canadian (J9) judges made an agreement to give Kaetlyn and Caro generous GOEs and PCS. Instead they gave such a score for Wakaba...

This was mentioned early on in the thread and I still don't have an answer for it :confused2:

 

[rosy14]

The bottom line for this event is that Alina has all but won the GPF. With her "generous" PCS on her short program and her backloaded long, no one can beat her. Only she can beat herself.

If judges keep on deciding and let it know the winner of every competition 2 months in advance, no one will keep watching.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

The pre-rotation talk btw is actually not really necessary this time around. Just look at the landings, and Satokos triples weren't less then 90° short

 

[snd]

sotskova's program is not dull. dated? debatable. it is regal and elegant and her performance accentuates this. her posture and arms and everything is vastly superior to alina, wakaba (who i adore) and kaetlyn. only satoko and carolina are more sophisticated - but maria is getting very close to them. since maria's tech content is light years ahead of carolina and since her jumps are 10x better than satoko's will ever be, i think it's obvious that maria was lowballed. i'm sure she will be getting higher pcs soon enough, though. haters gonna hate.

 

[birdseye]

https://icoachskating.com/jump-principles-speed-and-pre-rotation-frank-carroll/

This!

 

[Shayuki]

Could anybody explain me why Wakaba got -0.3 for her 3F! and Kaetlyn earned +0.8 for her 3Lz! ???

I suspect Italian (J8) and Canadian (J9) judges made an agreement to give Kaetlyn and Caro generous GOEs and PCS. Instead they gave such a stingy score for Wakaba...

Who knows. Osmond's flutz even is far more ugly than Higuchi's lip.

 

[largeman]

https://imgur.com/a/dIcA1 - See Carolina's forward takeoff on a loop
https://imgur.com/a/dIcA1 - Midori Ito's forward takeoff on a lutzhttps://imgur.com/a/dIcA1 - Irina Slustkaya's forward takeoff on a lutz

Everyone pre-rotates, just because you haven't noticed it, doesn't mean it didn;t happen. Satoko's is more accentuated because of her overall technique needs work. She hasn't discovered some secret underhanded way to use physics to her advantage and cheat her way to avoiding an under-rotation call because in fact, every skater completes about 180 degrees of rotation on the ice before the fully completed takeoff. If you watch closely on all jumps as the weight distribution shifts and the shoulders release to create torque, that the rotation will begin before leaving the ice. It's just how jumping works. Don't like it watch another sport (dirty little secret though prerotation exists in gymnastics too :shocked: ).

Yes, I think most of us are on the same page as you. That's why we are not complaining about Kaetlyn Osmond's 3F taking off forwards or Wakaba Higuchi's salchow taking off forwards. We don't think 180-degree prerotation is a problem.

If you're curious about what the 'pre-rotation' clause in the ISU manual was talking about, go watch one of kimmie Meissner's old 3-3 combos.You 'll notice that the momentum of the jump stops and she will literally step forward into the toeloop (thus a toe-axel).

Yes, this one I think fewer people realize. The "cheated takeoff" in the ISU rulebook refers to the toe-axel where the skating foot takes off forwards, not the picking foot. So none of the prerotation we are talking about here (on the lutz, toeloop, etc.) would fall into "cheated takeoff" territory according to the current official rules.

 

[Yatagarasu]

You're misunderstanding my process based argument. If today all of a sudden all of Shoma's jumps got -3s and we went to the judges and they said it was because of PR that's unfair: 1) the rule was never interpreted that way, 2) there was a sudden change to the interpretation without warning.

If the ISU wants to start interpreting the rule differently then an announcement needs to be made. This is just about procedural due process, which is one of the definitions of fairness, and has nothing to do with Satoko specifically.

No, it's not. It's only unfair if you take the rights of the person who has benefited this whole time from a non-application of the rules, as those who matter the most. If a rule exists, and someone suddenly squeezed them to start applying it, then tough luck to those who have been benefiting from the non-application. They knew the rule was there, it was their risk to take. Other people haven't been following the rules because they're fools but because they're there to be followed.

But now, yes, we should totally make sure to coddle those who have been relying on cheating their jumps even more. Ha! I'd love nothing more if suddenly someone at the Olympics butchered their jumps to pieces! That'd teach everyone a lesson not likely to be forgotten.