2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Sk8D8]

Amber only did one popped lutz and it was a clear outside edge. Her flip however, was more of a flat take off. Not a clear inside edge but not an outside one either.

 

[colormyworld240]

Anna's Lutz edge turns flat before she even picks her toe in while Satoko's still has a minimal outside edge when she picks in. The calls were fair. They showed both girl's Lutzes from the front in the replay. See for yourself.

I had to play them sbs to get a better look and to me, they look like they're on the exact same edge. Anna's and Satoko's look very flat. The camera angle was different for the two, but if you look just at their blade you'll see that neither was slightly outside. And then of course Sofia's looked inside to me but she didn't even get an ! either, but I think she should've gotten an e.

 

[Mathman]

Now, that is a convenient position. But I don't agree with its logic.

I would say this. In my experience the term "theory" is morally neutral. It is non-judgmental. "Einstein's Theory of Relativity is challenged to account for quantum coupling."

"Conspiracy theory," at least as the term is commonly used in the United States these sad times -- it may be different elsewhere -- has two extra ingredients: First, the "conspirators" who are responsible for events are secret and evil. And second, evidence of such secret associations of evil folk is lacking.

"I wear this tin-foil nat to prevent the Illuminati from stealing my brain."

If you look up "conspiracy theory" in the dictionary you find entries like (Wikipedia):

A conspiracy theory is an explanation of an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful actors, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable. The term has a pejorative connotation, implying that the appeal to a conspiracy is based on prejudice or insufficient evidence. Conspiracy theories resist falsification and are reinforced by circular reasoning: both evidence against the conspiracy and an absence of evidence for it, are re-interpreted as evidence of its truth, and the conspiracy becomes a matter of faith rather than proof.

To say that judges often show bias in favor of skaters from their own countries -- I would not say that such a statement is a conspiracy theory. For that matter, I wouldn't say that it is a theory at all. I think it is a fact.

 

[nussnacker]

Sofia and Satoko had many URs or potential URs even the judges and tech panel couldn't seem to get them all down.
If any take take off edges were overlooked it does not surprise me, with so many jumps under review for UR in the limited time they have to actually review them.

That’s a ridiculous claim to make, where’s the proof that judges don’t have enough time? Maria Sotskova had every single jump marked as under at idf (fairly), they ALL got a carrot, surely they found time to do a review of ALL of her jumps, but not others?

 

[Mishaminion]

That’s a ridiculous claim to make, where’s the proof that judges don’t have enough time? Maria Sotskova had every single jump marked as under at idf (fairly), they ALL got a carrot, surely they found time to do a review of ALL of her jumps, but not others?

Well it depends on a number of factors doesn't it?
You can't have a consistent model of the time it would take for a panel to review, because the conditions are not all identical. Some reviews may reach their conclusion very quickly without needing much analysis. Others might need more time.
Tech specialists can and do disagree with each other just as we do, so that can take time.

Also two completely different panels from two separate competitions, they are not robots, they don't do everything within the same time

Maria's jumps were so poor in rotation and with mostly bad landings it wasn't likely to be a long process.

Satoko in general it is not always so obvious, she rotates quite fast and often her landings look clean in real time.

 

[nussnacker]

Well it depends on a number of factors doesn't it?
You can't have a consistent model of the time it would take for a panel to review, because the conditions are not all identical. Some reviews may reach their conclusion very quickly without needing much analysis. Others might need more time.
Tech specialists can and do disagree with each other just as we do, so that can take time.

Maria's jumps were so poor in rotation and with mostly bad landings it wasn't likely to be a long process.

Satoko in general it is not always so obvious, she rotates quite fast and often her landings look clean in real time.

If you can provide some ISU directive that says that tech panel has a limited total time to do a review I would be thankful.

 

[Mishaminion]

If you can provide some ISU directive that says that tech panel has a limited total time to do a review I would be thankful.

Are you being sarcastic?

 

[nussnacker]

Are you being sarcastic?

No. I’ve seen multiple times panels taking a big amount of time to review the jumps, I’m legitimately asking you where‘s the persuasion that judges simply did not have enough time to mark all the jumps is coming from. Perhaps I missed some directive that says the review can only take 3 minutes and not more under any circumstances.

 

[colormyworld240]

Sofia and Satoko had many URs or potential URs even the judges and tech panel couldn't seem to get them all down.
If any take take off edges were overlooked it does not surprise me, with so many jumps under review for UR in the limited time they have to actually review them.

I think we are too hard on judges and tech panels sometimes, whatever reason we have to disagree with them.
They are under a lot of pressure to not make mistakes and to get things right, much like the skaters they judge.

Not only that but they only have a few minutes to make these decisions in the first place.

I disagree with them sometimes but I try to remember it is not an easy job. We can all sit at home and play judge ourselves, but would we be able to handle the job for real without error?

I know I wouldn't.

I don't think it's too much to expect the judges to evaluate everyone to the same standard. Which means that just because some skaters have more mistakes (URs in this case), it doesn't mean it's acceptable to ignore other things (edges calls). Based on that logic, those who make less mistakes (and have all their mistakes called) will even out with those who make more mistakes (but only have some of their mistakes called). It's a tough job, we can't do it, that's why we don't do it.

These differences would not have affected the placements here. But they will at GPF when all the skaters have very close scoring potentials. These skaters have to be held to the same standard especially when it's something that's measurable like an edge or an UR. People argue all the time about PCS but URs and edges are much more objective than many of the PCS criteria that everyone demands fair judging for. That's why I brought up that I think Anna was judged more harshly than the other Russians on the GPs, even though it was at different competitions. It concerns me that this will happen at GPF as well. I have no problem with Anna not winning/not making the podium there if everyone is held to the same standard, it just concerns me that this will be a result of her being judged more harshly than others. The same can be said about RusNats and Worlds selection. No national/coach bias conspiracy here. I just think she got the short end of the stick.

 

[AsadaFanBoy]

As best as I could see from the available camera angles, her edges were flat at best.
Her full blade assisted prerotation on 4Lz in particular doesn't really bother me much, she's hardly the only one using such techniques. I just worry she won't be able to sustain her jumps that way in the future. Much like Zhenya struggled with her technique and is now trying her best to revamp it.

Anya's skating is so lyrical and refined. It's a shame some of her jump techniques are flawed, because she has something different to offer that is worth sharing.

I share your concerns about Anya not being to sustain her jumps the same way in the future, but that isn't to say that she isn't working with Dudakov to work her technique as they go on this season and onwards. After all, this is her first grand prix season in seniors and I think they've received the feedback loud and clear.

 

[Mishaminion]

No. I’ve seen multiple times panels taking a big amount of time to review the jumps, I’m legitimately asking you where‘s the persuasion that judges simply did not have enough time to mark all the jumps is coming from. Perhaps I missed some directive that says the review can only take 3 minutes and not more under any circumstances.

I'm not even saying that's the case necessarily.


Or that it is acceptable to ignore errors for whatever reason.

There is no directive, no idea why you keep asking for things like that.

It is common sense. In a few hours it will be a full day, 24 hours since the ladies fs and we can go look at videos, photos, gifs and such to analyse Skater's jumps, whenever we want, from the comfort of our own homes.

Judges and tech panel cannot do that, they do have a limited time to reach conclusions. Generally a skater only waits a short amount of time for their scores, mere minutes. That is just how it works, then thr next skater begins their program.

Do you disagree that the judges are under pressure too?

 

[icybear]

Its very surprising that Anna seems to be be the only top skater in the free program to be dinged for her edges. Only 3 other ladies were dinged by the tech panel for their edges, Hongyi Chen, Kailani CRAINE, Yujin CHOI all very low ranking skaters. I'm pretty certain that at least some of the rest have wrong edges as well

 

[nussnacker]

i'm not even saying that's the case necessarily.


Or that it is acceptable to ignore errors for whatever reason.

There is no directive, no idea why you keep asking for things like that.

It is common sense. In a few hours it will be a full day, 24 hours since the ladies fs and we can go look at videos, photos, gifs and such to analyse skater's jumps, whenever we want, from the comfort of our own homes.

Judges and tech panel cannot do that, they do have a limited time to reach conclusions. Generally a skater only waits a short amount of time for their scores, mere minutes. That is just how it works, then thr next skater begins their program.

Do you disagree that the judges are under pressure too?

lol

 

[ec00834]

It seems as though you've already reached the conclusion that Anna should've received those edge calls while nobody else should've and you're just finding excuses to confirm your conclusion.

 

[Mishaminion]

It seems as though you've already reached the conclusion that Anna should've received those edge calls while nobody else should've and you're just finding excuses to confirm your conclusion.

No not really. I saw with my eyes her edges were flat.

I will say Satako did not get hosed enough on URs, I'm watching her programs again and I'm thinking her SP combo was borderline downgradable and almost all her triples under in the FS.

It doesn't affect Anna's victory she was comfortably out in front of Satoko both programs.

But Liza... it could have been the difference between her possibly making the final or not

 

[ec00834]

No not really. I saw with my eyes her edges were flat.

I will say Satako did not get hosed enough on URs, I'm watching her programs again and I'm thinking her SP combo aw borderline downgradable and almost all her triples under in the FS.

It doesn't affect Anna's victory she was comfortably out in front of Satoko both programs.

But Liza... it could have been the difference between her possibly making the final or not

I'm not talking about whether Anna herself should've received those calls. I'm talking about her in comparison with the rest of the field.

But yes, you're obviously right, of course Satoko's edge seemed maybe 1 degree outside while Anna's was 100% indisputably flat and there's a huge difference between their lutzes which is why Satoko doesn't deserve any calls!! (according to the side by side earlier)

 

[Mishaminion]

Anya's skating is so lyrical and refined. It's a shame some of her jump techniques are flawed, because she has something different to offer that is worth sharing.

I share your concerns about Anya not being to sustain her jumps the same way in the future, but that isn't to say that she isn't working with Dudakov to work her technique as they go on this season and onwards. After all, this is her first grand prix season in seniors and I think they've received the feedback loud and clear.

I agree.

Because she's wonderful and I would love to see her have a very successful career.

She has incredibly stiff competition, the pressure all these girls are under is immense.

 

[grem]

No not really. I saw with my eyes her edges were flat.

How about this Glenn's edge? http://prntscr.com/putjvw

 

[Mishaminion]

Yes, you're right, of course Satoko's edge seemed maybe 1 degree outside while Anna's was 100% indisputably flat and there's a huge difference between their lutzes which is why Satoko doesn't deserve any calls!! (according to the side by side earlier)

I wasnt talking about Satoko's edges, I was talking about her URs, after multiple replays I think there is a downgrade in SP and 5 UR in FS.

She got hit with three only in FS and two in SP (but not downgraded), judges are certainly stricter on her than they used to be, quite often her URs were completely ignored... so I suppose being hit with 5 in total across the competition is a start.

 

[ec00834]

How about this Glenn's edge? http://prntscr.com/putjvw

Can't you see? It's 1.3 degrees outside! The judges were too busy to look at her edge!