2019-20 U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I mean to land on the toepick/spinrocker with rotation before the main rocker touching on the ice.

Lmao, what? You’re saying he lands on his toepick and then rotates on it to complete the rotation. And he does this deliberately. On *quads*.

 

[Tahuu]

Lmao, what? You’re saying he lands on his toepick and then rotates on it to complete the rotation. And he does this deliberately. On *quads*.

Don't laugh. Here you're. This is how you land and rotate on you toepick/spinrocker without fall. The underrotation is completed before the main rocker is lowered. You won't even see the fishhook on the ice.

 

[Skater Boy]

The American men are sitting pretty. At worse Nathan will be second. Jason has now skated essentially three really good freeskates in a row. And is solid with his pcs sohe will be in the top 8 at worst if not on the podium. Vincent could podium or place as low as 12th. Even if he was 12th he with a win from Nathan would still earn 3 men. There are three very good men so they are safe. But considering this year all the skaters are so inconsistent Jason is look and sitting pretty - he can beat Boyang, Yan, Brezina, the Canadian, Cha, Aymoz, Rizzo. Aliev and the second Russian he will beat the third Japanese man and has a fair chance at beating Shoma who hasn't had the best year. USA could earn 3 spots in every event

 

[Ice Dance]

If Jason can finish below Aymoz & Sadovsky at NHK, he too can finish lower than 8th at Worlds. But hopefully Jason will be strong & lovely.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Don't laugh. Here you're. This is how you land and rotate on you toepick/spinrocker without fall. The underrotation is completed before the main rocker is lowered. You won't even see the fishhook on the ice.

That’s just a regular under rotation. He’s hardly the first skater to have his toe pick touch the ice with the boot facing a different direction than when the ball of the blade/rocker is touching the ice. If the tech specialist didn’t call that, it’s a miss. But to say he’s deliberately doing it makes no sense. A skater wouldn’t ever train their jumps to be ambiguous on the landing because it could go against them depending on the caller.

Think about what you’re suggesting from a physics standpoint.. Zhou has all this horizontal momentum/speed going into his jump, takes off with an arc trajectory on his jump (ie not straight up and down), and according to you is somehow able to completely stop any momentum he has at the exact moment of landing, turn on his toepick to complete the rotation and avoid leaving a hook, and then magically regain all that momentum to exit on a flowing backward outside edge.

Think about it - can a ballerina do a horizontal leap, with distance, and land right on their toe and immediate do a pirouette? No because their forward momentum from the leap would prevent them from staying in the same spot upon the landing. However a ballerina at a stand still could conceivably jump straight up, start spinning, land en pointe and continue to pirouette in the same spot from which they took off - because they have no horizontal momentum to force them off their toe.

For Zhou to land and turn on his pick in the same spot (like a male pairs skater’s pivot foot in a death spiral), he would literally have to perform the jump precisely just up and down, with only height and (mathematically speaking) zero distance, so that upon landing he could turn on his pick - because any horizontal momentum maintained throughout the jump would invariably result in a hook on the ice because his momentum is still going in a horizontal direction.

 

[karne]

Maybe Jason should just land them UR then have one of his coaches throw a hissy fit in the media about the mean evil tech panels calling them correctly UR. It's worked before.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Maybe Jason should just land them UR then have one of his coaches throw a hissy fit in the media about the mean evil tech panels calling them correctly UR. It's worked before.

Yes because clearly tech panels care what’s coach has to say and will bear that in mind moving forward.

And it’s not like Zhou actually improved his jumping technique or anything. :sarcasm:

He’s not the same jumper in 2018 as when he made the 2019 World podium. Other than Chen, no US man in the past 10 years has medaled at Worlds. So it’s hardly surprising that certain people will come for Zhou/Tom Z and try to trivialize Zhou’s evident improvement and achievements.

Tom Z is hardly the first coach to advocate for his skater and criticize UR calls. But no matter how much you want to say it was Tom Z’s politicking (you know, because Tom has SO much clout) or bad judging it was Zhou’s hard work that won him World bronze. And comfortably so.

Vincent had the goods.Tom Z has had other skaters before and no amount of politicking would have brought them on the World podium.

 

[karne]

Vincent had the goods.Tom Z has had other skaters before and no amount of politicking would have brought them on the World podium.

I am quite sure he has had other men before that could have done so had they had a massive USFS propaganda push behind them. Remember Auxier and his claim that Zhou and Chen were the only two worthwhile skaters....only a few weeks after a totally different skater (apparently not worthwhile according to Auxier) had to save their butts because one of the "worthwhile" skaters couldn't do the job he was supposedly a lock to do?

 

[kolyadafan2002]

That’s just a regular under rotation. He’s hardly the first skater to have his toe pick touch the ice with the boot facing a different direction than when the ball of the blade/rocker is touching the ice. If the tech specialist didn’t call that, it’s a miss. But to say he’s deliberately doing it makes no sense. A skater wouldn’t ever train their jumps to be ambiguous on the landing because it could go against them depending on the caller.

Think about what you’re suggesting from a physics standpoint.. Zhou has all this horizontal momentum/speed going into his jump, takes off with an arc trajectory on his jump (ie not straight up and down), and according to you is somehow able to completely stop any momentum he has at the exact moment of landing, turn on his toepick to complete the rotation and avoid leaving a hook, and then magically regain all that momentum to exit on a flowing backward outside edge.

Think about it - can a ballerina do a horizontal leap, with distance, and land right on their toe and immediate do a pirouette? No because their forward momentum from the leap would prevent them from staying in the same spot upon the landing. However a ballerina at a stand still could conceivably jump straight up, start spinning, land en pointe and continue to pirouette in the same spot from which they took off - because they have no horizontal momentum to force them off their toe.

For Zhou to land and turn on his pick in the same spot (like a male pairs skater’s pivot foot in a death spiral), he would literally have to perform the jump precisely just up and down, with only height and (mathematically speaking) zero distance, so that upon landing he could turn on his pick - because any horizontal momentum maintained throughout the jump would invariably result in a hook on the ice because his momentum is still going in a horizontal direction.

I think what the person is trying to say is if you underrotate on the toepick it is easier to hide than if you land on the blade. I think Johhny Weir made a comment similar to this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXSOwuusMzo

 

[Tavi...]

Yes because clearly tech panels care what’s coach has to say and will bear that in mind moving forward.

And it’s not like Zhou actually improved his jumping technique or anything. :sarcasm:

He’s not the same jumper in 2018 as when he made the 2019 World podium. Other than Chen, no US man in the past 10 years has medaled at Worlds. So it’s hardly surprising that certain people will come for Zhou/Tom Z and try to trivialize Zhou’s evident improvement and achievements.

Tom Z is hardly the first coach to advocate for his skater and criticize UR calls. But no matter how much you want to say it was Tom Z’s politicking (you know, because Tom has SO much clout) or bad judging it was Zhou’s hard work that won him World bronze. And comfortably so.

Vincent had the goods.Tom Z has had other skaters before and no amount of politicking would have brought them on the World podium.

Not gonna wade into the toe pick dispute, but I think it’s kind of disingenuous to pretend that the ISU is immune to criticism. Look what happened after Russia complained about “inconsistent” judging.

While all coaches can/should advocate for their skaters, Tom Z took his complaint to social media. At least a couple of US commentators - Michael Weiss and Charlie White are the two I remember- also weighed in. None of that is Vincent’s fault, and in fact, it has nothing to do with whether or not his skating /jumping improved. But - as is the case with the Russian Fed’s complaints - the advocacy didn’t cause judging and tech calls to become more even handed to everyone.

With regard to Tom Z, specifically, I’m not sure how much credit he deserves for Vincent’s improvements, which seemed to begin after he added Mie Hamada to his team - and to state the obvious, he’s no longer working with Tom Z at all.

One other thing: Vincent followed up his medal-worthy performance at Worlds 2019 with a very ragged one at SLC. Thankfully, he looked far better at Nats. But I think the unevenness both he and Jason have shown in the past season or two demonstrates how much time and work it takes to make major life and technique changes. They have different innate strengths and weaknesses, but both of them have worked incredibly hard to improve, and deserve credit for that - just as Nathan deserves credit for his incredible consistency. I’m looking forward to seeing what all three of them do at Worlds, just as I’m looking forward to seeing what Andrew T does at JWC, and what all of them + Camden, Alexei, and Tomoki do next season.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think what the person is trying to say is if you underrotate on the toepick it is easier to hide than if you land on the blade. I think Johhny Weir made a comment similar to this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXSOwuusMzo

It’s still a silly statement to make as all jumps land on the toepick. And he’s not deliberately trying to hide it, as the tech panel can make their call based off of the replay they see.

It would be like saying a skater is “hiding” the fact that they can’t do a “proper” Biellmann with both hands grabbing their blade and hold onto their blade with just one hand and hold their forearm with the other hand to still get a Biellmann-esque shape. Or skaters doing a fast cross foot spin to “hide” the fact that they probably can’t actually do one properly with equal pressure on both feet. It’s not ideal technique and a tech specialist might ding them on a level but the skater is still doing the best they can and not trying to swindle the judges or something. Vincent knew he had a tendency to UR however he was still trying to overcome it. And did so at 2019 Worlds where his jumps were much cleaner.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think it’s kind of disingenuous to pretend that the ISU is immune to criticism. Look what happened after Russia complained about “inconsistent” judging.

While all coaches can/should advocate for their skaters, Tom Z took his complaint to social media. At least a couple of US commentators - Michael Weiss and Charlie White are the two I remember- also weighed in. None of that is Vincent’s fault, and in fact, it has nothing to do with whether or not his skating /jumping improved. But - as is the case with the Russian Fed’s complaints - the advocacy didn’t cause judging and tech calls to become more even handed to everyone.

With regard to Tom Z, specifically, I’m not sure how much credit he deserves for Vincent’s improvements, which seemed to begin after he added Mie Hamada to his team - and to state the obvious, he’s no longer working with Tom Z at all.

One other thing: Vincent followed up his medal-worthy performance at Worlds 2019 with a very ragged one at SLC. Thankfully, he looked far better at Nats. But I think the unevenness both he and Jason have shown in the past season or two demonstrates how much time and work it takes to make major life and technique changes. They have different innate strengths and weaknesses, but both of them have worked incredibly hard to improve, and deserve credit for that - just as Nathan deserves credit for his incredible consistency. I’m looking forward to seeing what all three of them do at Worlds, just as I’m looking forward to seeing what Andrew T does at JWC, and what all of them + Camden, Alexei, and Tomoki do next season.

Well he actually followed it up with WTT where he got a PB and almost beat Nathan. He did indeed look solid at Nationals though and I’m looking forward to seeing what he can do at Worlds. He’s a big question mark though depending on how much he upgrades his content.

A lot can happen in a year of course but with some people they make it seem like Zhou isn’t the reigning World bronze medalist and are dismissing him. He put education first and suddenly people are criticizing him for not being in the same form. He definitely shut some of them up at Nationals.

There is a ton of talent coming up. But the US is fortunate to have him. Even if his jumps are UR sometimes he’s still the only skater other than Chen to successfully execute a 4F and 4Z in one program and his meteoric rise is due to the fact that he went for it and wasn’t going to settle for “paying his dues” and waiting to be allowed to make it to the top gradually. He can definitely be hit or miss but Im sure the US would rather a have skater who is occasionally a hit and can make the World podium than go with one who is solid but isn't a podium threat because they don’t commit to adding the firepower (with rare exceptions like Brown).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I am quite sure he has had other men before that could have done so had they had a massive USFS propaganda push behind them. Remember Auxier and his claim that Zhou and Chen were the only two worthwhile skaters....only a few weeks after a totally different skater (apparently not worthwhile according to Auxier) had to save their butts because one of the "worthwhile" skaters couldn't do the job he was supposedly a lock to do?

Well that was a dumb statement for Auxier to make (reminds me of Slipchuk’s comments about how Canada really only had one spot at Worlds when Chan was around). Aaron was a worthwhile skater. He never ever had World podium potential but he was still fairly reliable. While he’s to be commended for saving 3 spots, Zhou was only like 3 points away from saving 3 spots himself thanks to a fantastic SP (where he was 3rd). And after a disastrous FS where he got 6 UR calls he still ended up only 5 points back of Aaron. Zhou is a bit of an Aliev/Jin in that he could score really high or bomb - but at least he’s one of the few US skaters who has had the potential to make the podium .... which of course he did ultimately do - just last year.

If you wanna dwell on Zhou bombing his FS and Max saving the US’ 3 spots that’s totally fine. Whatever makes you feel better. But nothing will ever change the fact that Zhou bounced back the following year and got himself some World’s hardware in just his 2nd trip to Worlds, when the best Aaron ever managed in four Worlds was 7th.

 

[Tavi...]

Well he actually followed it up with WTT where he got a PB and almost beat Nathan. He did indeed look solid at Nationals though and I’m looking forward to seeing what he can do at Worlds. He’s a big question mark though depending on how much he upgrades his content.

A lot can happen in a year of course but with some people they make it seem like Zhou isn’t the reigning World bronze medalist and are dismissing him. He put education first and suddenly people are criticizing him for not being in the same form. He definitely shut some of them up at Nationals.

There is a ton of talent coming up. But the US is fortunate to have him. Even if his jumps are UR sometimes he’s still the only skater other than Chen to successfully execute a 4F and 4Z in one program and his meteoric rise is due to the fact that he went for it and wasn’t going to settle for “paying his dues” and waiting to be allowed to make it to the top gradually. He can definitely be hit or miss but Im sure the US would rather a have skater who is occasionally a hit and can make the World podium than go with one who is solid but isn't a podium threat because they don’t commit to adding the firepower (with rare exceptions like Brown).

Yes, you’re right, Vincent did very well at WTT. But that doesn’t negate the fact that a few months later at SLC, he was clearly struggling and didn’t achieve anything close to his WTT/Worlds results. My point is not to criticize Vincent, but to point out to you that despite his many strengths, Vincent - like all of our guys not named Nathan - has sometimes performed unevenly.

I don’t really want to wade into the Max v Vincent debate, and I honestly I don’t see why it’s necessary to compare the two of them, especially given that Max retired two years ago. But I will say that the one time I saw Max live, I enjoyed him tremendously and was super impressed with his charisma and performance chops. I mention this because his “performance” ability was generally considered a weakness during his competitive career, and at least this one time I saw him, I didn’t find it true at all. I think he had a career to be proud of, and I hope he’s happy and satisfied with what he accomplished. Whether or not he was competitive for a World medal, he was a solid member of team USA who came through strongly in 2018 to ensure that the US retained 3 Worlds spots. He only placed outside of the top 10 at Worlds once (in 2018, when he placed 11th after a last minute call up), was a national champion, and medaled 4x on the Grand Prix, including taking gold at Skate America in 2015. More than that, he was a genuinely good guy who was always happy for the success of others, and who was quick to congratulate his competitors on their achievements. That kind of sportsmanship isn’t quantifiable like medals, but for me it’s worth a ton.

Net, net, I have always really liked this thread, but it’s sometimes hard to deal with the fan wars. I’ve been guilty of it myself from time to time, but I try hard to avoid it.

I’d love to hear what you and others think about how our guys will do at Worlds and Junior Worlds.

 

[Ice Dance]

Vincent has sometimes performed unevenly. As the U.S. men go, however, he has been quite consistent relative to the national field and in multiple very high-pressure events.

 

[snowflake]

A lot can happen in a year of course but with some people they make it seem like Zhou isn’t the reigning World bronze medalist and are dismissing him. He put education first and suddenly people are criticizing him for not being in the same form. He definitely shut some of them up at Nationals.

And he is still so young, not 20 before next season. I’m excited about his new coaching situation. Very interesting to see how far he will go. Hopes for him and lovely Satoko to learn from each other

 

[Makemi]

While all coaches can/should advocate for their skaters, Tom Z took his complaint to social media. At least a couple of US commentators - Michael Weiss and Charlie White are the two I remember- also weighed in. None of that is Vincent’s fault, and in fact, it has nothing to do with whether or not his skating /jumping improved. But - as is the case with the Russian Fed’s complaints - the advocacy didn’t cause judging and tech calls to become more even handed to everyone.

With regard to Tom Z, specifically, I’m not sure how much credit he deserves for Vincent’s improvements, which seemed to begin after he added Mie Hamada to his team - and to state the obvious, he’s no longer working with Tom Z at all.

One other thing: Vincent followed up his medal-worthy performance at Worlds 2019 with a very ragged one at SLC. Thankfully, he looked far better at Nats. But I think the unevenness both he and Jason have shown in the past season or two demonstrates how much time and work it takes to make major life and technique changes. They have different innate strengths and weaknesses, but both of them have worked incredibly hard to improve, and deserve credit for that - just as Nathan deserves credit for his incredible consistency. I’m looking forward to seeing what all three of them do at Worlds, just as I’m looking forward to seeing what Andrew T does at JWC, and what all of them + Camden, Alexei, and Tomoki do next season.

IMO, I don't think Tom Z's remarks did Vincent any favors and I seriously doubt it made any difference in the judging thereafter. I'd say if anything those remarks hurt Tom Z's own reputation and I think it's pretty telling that he has essentially lost all of this top elite skaters (ironically lost them to Tammy whom he had convinced to come to Colorado in the first place).

I'd agree that most of the credit likely belongs to Mie Hamada - Vincent started showing definite improvements once he started working with her. In fact the decision to drop the entire Colorado team entirely and move to Lee Barkell should signal that Vincent knows he has a problem and is actively trying to fix it. He just needs time to fix them-- as you said, changes in technique take a long time. And even if a skater is doing it right in practice, it takes longer to do it under pressure in competition. I'd actually say "losing" his jumps and having to "regain" them might actually work in Vincent's favor because it might help get rid of bad habits faster.

As for SLC, I don't know how much stock we can put in that performance. It was early in the season, debuting new programs, plus he had already started at Brown so who knows how much training time he had really put in. Japan Open was slightly better. Historically Vincent has shown to peak in the latter half the season (kind of like Boyang). He's still a question mark to me so we'll see how far along he's come during the practice sessions at Worlds.

 

[Jammers]

Vincent has sometimes performed unevenly. As the U.S. men go, however, he has been quite consistent relative to the national field and in multiple very high-pressure events.

Vincent has never been an early season skater. He seems to peak from Nationals through Worlds other then that bad skate he had in the LP at Worlds in 2018. Since he hasn't competed hardly at all this season who knows how he will be at Worlds.

 

[mrrice]

Vincent has never been an early season skater. He seems to peak from Nationals through Worlds other then that bad skate he had in the LP at Worlds in 2018. Since he hasn't competed hardly at all this season who knows how he will be at Worlds.

I must admit that I don't have a good read on Vincent. I will certainly give him a pass due to his school schedule. I still can't believe that Nathan has done as well as he has while attending Yale. Who is SUB#1 for the US Men?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I must admit that I don't have a good read on Vincent. I will certainly give him a pass due to his school schedule. I still can't believe that Nathan has done as well as he has while attending Yale. Who is SUB#1 for the US Men?

I would guess Tomoki?