Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

[TallyT]

I would rather see Donovan Carrillo than the fourth best American, Japanese or Russian man, although their history of scores may far exceed Donovan's. Luckily, as the format of Worlds is probably never going to change, I will get what I want. As long as Donovan gets those darned minimums:gaah:

Audiences in many countries do love a battler, which is I guess one reason why, among the pantheon of Olympic immortals, there is room for Eddie the Eagle and the Jamaican bobsled team. Not that Donovan or any of the skaters at Worlds are anywhere near their equal

We seem to have gotten off the topic rather a lot, as changing Worlds or Olympic selection has very little to do with whether or not the age for seniors should be raised. And changing Worlds or Olympic selection wouldn't do a thing to prove it good or bad either way, as far as I can see.

 

[Mathman]

... the World Championships is in fact the World Championships, not the Russia-and-USA-and-Japan championships, and thus...

The problem is that there are two ways to end this sentence.

(1) and thus the best skaters in the WORLD should be at the world championships. Or

(2) and thus every country in the WORLD should be represented.

Does the WORLD consist of people or of countries? I can see an argument for each answer.

 

[Skatesocs]

The problem is that there are two ways to end this sentence.

(1) and thus the best skaters in the WORLD should be at the world championships. Or

(2) and thus every country in the WORLD should be represented.

Does the WORLD consist of people or of countries? I can see an argument for each answer.

YES, thanks. Thank you so much. It's just an open ended phrase. People are so convinced that their interpretation and their interpretation alone is correct... It's not even true for things like the Constitution lol.

 

[Mathman]

I believe that the solution here is to change the GPF. I think it should be 12 skaters with no limit on country participation. ...

Failing that maybe the Russians or Japanese can come up with some kind of made for TV event that has an invitational field.

I think that the ISU is already doing everything they can to crank up interest in the Grand Prix. As for made-for-TV invitationals, that's what the Grand Prix events (Skate Canada, Skate America, NHK) originally were. Now we have many senior Bs (Nepala, Golden Spin, etc.) that can invite Eddie the Eagles and local up-and-comers looking for experience if they want to. These events can please the crowds and make money for the organizers. (But I don't think they do -- the money part, that is.)

But I'm with you. Offer a ten million dollar purse and people will watch because -- hey, this must be pretty cool if they are competing for ten million dollars. Look at how many people in the U.S. tuned in to watch a golf game between washed-up football players Tom Brady and Peyton Manning last week. Why not a million dollar skate-off featuring Medvedeva, Zagitova and Tuktamysheva? That would be great. I'd watch in a minute. But there's that little thing about the million dollars. :yes:

 

[icestorm]

A ridiculous minimum?

The minimum is hardly ridiculous - or if it is, it is ridiculously high. A lovely young lady at Euros did an SP with a clean 3F, clean 3Lo-2T, a 2A, and all level 3 and 4 spins/steps. That's hardly "easy content". And she still did not make the minimums for the WC.

Any minimums letting numbers 132 and 133 of WS qualify to WC are obviously ridiculous.

 

[karne]

This is being incredibly facetious; it is well-known what is meant by a World Championship.

Here is the Collins Dictionary definition:

an international competition in a particular sport or activity for people all around the world

 

[Skatesocs]

This is being incredibly facetious; it is well-known what is meant by a World Championship.

Here is the Collins Dictionary definition:

Qualified according to which standard?

Again you're bringing literality to a complex situation. And you still didn't answer Mathman. Is "world" people or countries? That definition is hardly dictionary based.

 

[karne]

Any minimums letting numbers 132 and 133 of WS qualify to WC are obviously ridiculous.

Why should it be so, when so many spots above them are filled up by Russians and Japanese and American skaters, some of whom are ridiculously overscored?

 

[ancientpeas]

*why am I still up?*

The ISU is not going to change the format for the WC. Each federation has a vote. No one is going to vote out their own skaters from the most prestigious event that ISU hosts.

They already pre rank the skaters. If you do not want to watch lower ranked skaters tune in to the last 2 flights and skip the rest.

Turn the marquee event (Ladies unfortunately as it has always been my least favourite) into 7 Russians 2 Japanese and 1 American and watch how quickly Skating gets bounced from the Olympics.

Honestly folks.. I know it seems unfair to Russians and Japanese now but there was a time when it was grossly unfair to the Americans. They had most of the best men and women skaters in the world.

If you only want the best then that is what the GPF is for.

 

[icestorm]

The ISU is not going to change the format for the WC.

The ISU is not going to change the age limit. That doesn't stop anybody from advocating it for many threads and pages here.

 

[TallyT]

The ISU is not going to change the age limit. That doesn't stop anybody from advocating it for many threads and pages here.

There has apparently been a proposal and ISU discussion about changing the age limit (see the very first posts in this thread). No, it's not been recommended at this stage, I don't expect it to happen soon if at all, but the idea has been raised on high.

 

[Skatesocs]

The ISU is not going to change the format for the WC. Each federation has a vote. No one is going to vote out their own skaters from the most prestigious event that ISU hosts.

Turn the marquee event (Ladies unfortunately as it has always been my least favourite) into 7 Russians 2 Japanese and 1 American and watch how quickly Skating gets bounced from the Olympics.

but there was a time when it was grossly unfair to the Americans.

I don't want little feds eliminated. I just want some more spots for countries with deeper fields. The talent pool *has* increased from a few years back. IMO, the number of spots should show a similar change. If all the people on this thread want to argue is that they'd like to see a small fed skater, that's ok by me. I don't think they'd mind if that skater finishes 30th instead of 19th then. It's on the ISU to fund a larger competition than they do - OR come up with a fairer solution than that. Expanding GPF is a good solution, but still costly.

Americans having it bad a bit back doesn't make it right then, and it doesn't make it right now.

Why should it be so, when so many spots above them are filled up by Russians and Japanese and American skaters, some of whom are ridiculously overscored?

How does a problem with the judging mean that it should affect the American/Russians/Japanese who *aren't* ridiculously overscored but still managed to make it, and lose out on spots to those overscored skaters?

There has apparently been a proposal and ISU discussion about changing the age limit (see the very first posts in this thread). No, it's not been recommended at this stage, I don't expect it to happen soon if at all, but the idea has been raised on high.

If people concerned about it don't bring up an issue, how will the ISU know? I agree the reasons on this thread lack content mostly, but it's absolutely valid to discuss this, but maybe in a different thread. Maybe it will alert someone important that something needs to be done.

 

[TallyT]

I don't want little feds eliminated. I just want some more spots for skaters with deeper fields. The talent pool *has* increased from a few years back. IMO, the number of spots should show a similar change.

Seriously, I don't think that's practicable given the length of the competitions already and the demands of moden media coverage. In 1970 there were 21 each in the men's and ladies' discipline, in 1990 (which was after they started cutting for the free) there were 31 in the men's short program and 29 in the ladies. In 2019, 35 in the men's short and 40 in the ladies. And the ISU, but cutting the men's free skate time after the Olympics, made it clear that they were more interested in trying - somehow - to reduce the length of the whole, not extend it.

I can see your point, believe me: it's just a matter of must needs when the TV rights devil drives.

 

[Mawwerg]

The problem is that there are two ways to end this sentence.

(1) and thus the best skaters in the WORLD should be at the world championships. Or

(2) and thus every country in the WORLD should be represented.

Does the WORLD consist of people or of countries? I can see an argument for each answer.

I believe the first one should be implemented for World Championships and the second one for Olympics.

 

[ancientpeas]

I believe the first one should be implemented for World Championships and the second one for Olympics.

This will kill small feds. If their only chance is to go to the Olympics once every four years the drop off rate will be huge.

 

[icestorm]

It is funny to see how people advocating long careers immediately forget about this goal if price of this longevity is increasing number of spots per country.

 

[TallyT]

PS - Further to my post above, I checked the length of the singles discipline short program for Worlds 2019 on youtube. And this, not being TV, is without breaks for ads.

Men - 5 hours 5 minutes solid.
Ladies - 6 hours 2 minutes.

Giving more spots to the dominant countries, while not taking away from the small feds, would increase that by... how much, I don't know.

 

[flanker]

I am afraid I disagree.

It would be a sham to have ten skaters from any one country at the *World's* championship, no matter their scores, jumps, or other achievements. The Worlds championships are for the world's skaters, and without the world, they would be a sham.

The Grand Prix Final is for skaters ranked according to certain scores, regardless of country. And fans who want to see that type of competition will be able to enjoy it there.

That's why I say GP series (in a modified format) should serve like a qualification for worlds. Everybody would have the same chanve to qualify.

BTW there are many sports ruled by several strong countries, who have much more entries than 3.

 

[Shayuki]

I am afraid I disagree.

It would be a sham to have ten skaters from any one country at the *World's* championship, no matter their scores, jumps, or other achievements. The Worlds championships are for the world's skaters, and without the world, they would be a sham.

The Grand Prix Final is for skaters ranked according to certain scores, regardless of country. And fans who want to see that type of competition will be able to enjoy it there.

The world championships should be about the best individual skaters in the world. Not about a minor portion of the best skaters in the world and a dozen pity spots, only given out due to the country the skater's representing, without them deserving to be there by their merits at all.

 

[Skatesocs]

PS - Further to my post above, I checked the length of the singles discipline short program for Worlds 2020 on youtube. And this, not being TV, is without breaks for ads.

Men - 5 hours 5 minutes solid.
Ladies - 6 hours 2 minutes.

Giving more spots to the dominant countries, while not taking away from the small feds, would increase that by... how much, I don't know.

Yes, and this I don't know how to fix. The only solution that really comes to mind is cutting SP times (and requirements). THEN we can squeeze in more people. But the TV networks will probably like the GPF solution more, which is still good if it includes nice prizes, but will still never be as prestigious as WC.

EDIT: I think this person's GP qualifications solution also sounds interesting.

BTW there are many sports ruled by several strong countries, who have much more entries than 3.

Yes, but for whatever reason we never see that... Which sports do you have in mind?