2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[flanker]

It was deigned to curb backloading, certainly, but could Alina's fans take a leaf out of her book and stop whining that "tain't faaaaiir"? As I understand it, she only did the backloading because of a previous ruling giving a bonus for it that was designed to stop the then problematic frontloading and supposedly to encourage a balanced program. That Eteri found a way to legitimately exploit it is all credit to her, but when she did... it no longer served the purpose for which it was designed. It certainly was never some god-given right engraved in the annals of posterity.

What the ISU (who are currently in my all-level-of-hells-and-I-hope-they-fry-there black book, so I cannot believe I am saying this) giveth, the ISU then tooketh away. No one has banned backloading, they've just stopped rewarding it so much.

Backloading wasn't "discovered" by Eteri (neither it was her who has found "the hole"). Every skater tried to put as many jumps into the second half as possible, first 3-4 and later 2-5 started to be pretty common layout, though only Alina and Aliona were able to fully backload the free program (though before the Zagitova Rule was passed one japanese lady - I forgot who - announced that she will do 0-7 during 2018/19 season as well).

I just loved some FS fans sour grapes comments about "others don't do that because they want a ballanced program, only evil Eteri doesn't care about the beauty of the programs", which was nuts, because most of the rewst would do as well if they could and as I've said, the effort of putting as much as possible jumps into the second half started long before Alina. Eteri's team just got two jumps further

 

[Scott512]

To me, this is complete nonsense. Alina must follow the same rules as everyone else. She is not being disadvantaged at all by any ISU rule. If she wants to go to Worlds, well, everyone does. Let her compete like everyone else. The ISU has never had any rule that says last year's world champion automatically gets special consideration compared to those who want to be be this year's champion. Each figure skating season is a stand-alone entity. Figure Skating does not have, and has never had, a notion of "defending your championship." I don't see how anyone can complain, poor Alina, she has to follow the same rules as everyone else.

If they want to make their sport more popular then last year's World Champion or european champion on the last Olympic champion gets a bye with minimum qualifications required. As long as there are some requirements to earn that by that's fine you can't just sit on the sofa eating Donuts and get a buy back into an event you one previously. But the score is run by such hacks I would never expect anything good to be done.

 

[Scott512]

I repeat, no one is stopping the skaters from still back-loading if they want to do so just because they believe it makes a better program or fits their vision or what they want to achieve. It's not banned. They just don't get the extra points, that were not granted for years before the first change, for doing so.

Why Tally why? This issue was put to bed long ago so I'm surprised to wake up to reading about it again.

It's simple tally the risk was worth the reward when the backloading rewards were really good. The skating Union took those rewards away knowing that no one would do back loading without the rewards. Back loading programs was harder to do physically which is why it was rewarded more. ISU got fraidy scared during 2018 olympics when Christine Brennan and her ilk were screaming about backloading and how it was gaming the system which to some means cheating. That was complete BS propaganda. If an American girl was doing backloading ti gold medal level we wouldn't have heard a peep out of her. If it wasn't backloading they would have complained about Alina being a jumping bean. Oh wait they did that too.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

To me, this is complete nonsense. Alina must follow the same rules as everyone else. She is not being disadvantaged at all by any ISU rule. If she wants to go to Worlds, well, everyone does. Let her compete like everyone else. The ISU has never had any rule that says last year's world champion automatically gets special consideration compared to those who want to be be this year's champion. Each figure skating season is a stand-alone entity. Figure Skating does not have, and has never had, a notion of "defending your championship." I don't see how anyone can complain, poor Alina, she has to follow the same rules as everyone else.

ISU has never had that rule, because there was no need for it in the past. If that is a nonsense it wouldn't be implement in majority of other sports in the world. Because whoever is the current World Champion, he/she is not the same as everyone else. I was just giving one of examples from other sports how they 'keep' their 'stars' in the sport, at least for one more year (and that is certainly not by age limits rule). I agree that Alina probably would not wanted to compete anyway, but maybe the next World Champion will (who, instead to prepare for national competition, would earn some money through the shows for example, or just deservedly rest for the first half of the season).

 

[TallyT]

Why Tally why? This issue was put to bed long ago so I'm surprised to wake up to reading about it again.

It's simple tally the risk was worth the reward when the backloading rewards were really good. The skating Union took those rewards away knowing that no one would do back loading without the rewards. Back loading programs was harder to do physically which is why it was rewarded more. ISU got fraidy scared during 2018 olympics when Christine Brennan and her ilk were screaming about backloading and how it was gaming the system which to some means cheating. That was complete BS propaganda. If an American girl was doing backloading ti gold medal level we wouldn't have heard a peep out of her. If it wasn't backloading they would have complained about Alina being a jumping bean. Oh wait they did that too.

Hey, my favourite skaters backloaded too. I don't have a problem with it.

 

[Scott512]

Hey, my favourite skaters backloaded too. I don't have a problem with it.

Me neither. It takes great courage to do back loading and deserves to be rewarded like it was.

On a side note if the Grand Prix season is altered much there are rumors that Russia will have many internal competitions so they can at least have some semblance of a season. If that really happens in the next month or two due to the pandemic then does it make sense for Zhenya to return to Canada to train if her only competitions are going to be in Russia? I hope they can have a full International season on all levels but the Junior Grand Prix season is already been scrapped so any semblance of a normal traditional figure skating season is probably out the window at this point. I just wish people all around the world we're using hand sanitizer and wearing masks in public. If they did this virus would have been reduced significantly in my non-scientific opinion.

 

[ruga]

I wasn't a big fan of backloading but the rule is even worse. Now everyone has a 4/3 layout because almost all skaters are good enough to execute it. Why not give bonus for 5 or 6 jumps? Not everyone could do that, especially now when women are rapidly learning quads and 3As - elements that are not likely to be moved to the second half.

 

[Scott512]

I wasn't a big fan of backloading but the rule is even worse. Now everyone has a 4/3 layout because almost all skaters are good enough to execute it. Why not give bonus for 5 or 6 jumps? Not everyone could do that, especially now when women are rapidly learning quads and 3As - elements that are not likely to be moved to the second half.

Very true.

 

[Fried]

(...) quads and 3As - elements that are not likely to be moved to the second half.

Sasha definitely serves quads in the second half.

 

[flanker]

I wasn't a big fan of backloading but the rule is even worse. Now everyone has a 4/3 layout because almost all skaters are good enough to execute it. Why not give bonus for 5 or 6 jumps? Not everyone could do that, especially now when women are rapidly learning quads and 3As - elements that are not likely to be moved to the second half.

And that's exactly why I was against the change of the rules. Precisely thank to different "fitness" of the skaters some backloaded four, some five, some more. Layouts were different. Now, every layout is the same.

Of course full backloading is just one way to success and precisely Alina, who was predicted she won't win anymore without backloading, won the worlds a year later even without backloading all of her combos, but I'm always glad for every different way how to compose a program that can be rewarded in some way.

 

[JazzUp]

It was deigned to curb backloading, certainly, but could Alina's fans take a leaf out of her book and stop whining that "tain't faaaaiir"?

I just pointed out the omission - pretty huge one at that - by Mathman, and didn't say anything on whether it (the Zagitova rule) was good or bad, so kindly, stop your whining.

 

[Mathman]

Guess you must have missed the 'Zagitova rule'... Or are you seriously saying that it was not specifically designed to curb and restrain Alina and other Eteri skaters that could backload their programmes?

Yes, I am seriously saying exactly that. The second-half bonus was put in to encourage a more "balanced" distribution of highlight elements. When Alina overdid it, the ISU said, Oops, no, that is not what we intended the rule to be, so they changed it -- for all skaters.

I don't know -- this constant whining and crying just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[dunffvanstorn]

Yes, I am seriously saying exactly that. The second-half bonus was put in to encourage a more "balanced" distribution of highlight elements. When Alina overdid it, the ISU said, Oops, no, that is not what we intended the rule to be, so they changed it -- for all skaters.

I don't know -- this constant whining and crying just rubs me the wrong way.

Fully backloaded programs in a short program are ok for me, but in a free skate it’s just boring. 2 entire minutes of “pretending” to fill the program with lame choreography - and calling attention to weak skating skills. At least without fully backloaded programs, some skaters didn’t have their lack of artistry/musicality/skating skills highlighted. I know everybody loves Alina’s DQ, turns out I’m not one of them. For me, the last 2 minutes are fantastic, the first two make me want to sleep. But for me the whole backloading vs. not backloading discussion is pointless, skaters will have to do whatever ISU says, so let them play by the rules. My tolerance with backloading is probably 1-6 or 2-5, not more than that, but whatever, let skaters skate and let the best win.


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[sparklestan]

I wasn't a big fan of backloading but the rule is even worse. Now everyone has a 4/3 layout because almost all skaters are good enough to execute it. Why not give bonus for 5 or 6 jumps? Not everyone could do that, especially now when women are rapidly learning quads and 3As - elements that are not likely to be moved to the second half.

I totally agree!!
My dream backloading rule is:
-skaters can make their layout whatever they want (0-7 allowed)
-only “clean” jumps will get the 10% bonus (if the skater falls, under rotates, downgrades, gets an edge call, etc. they will not get the bonus)
I think this would encourage skaters to only put jumps in the second half that they know they can do well and promote different layouts. But I’m not in the ISU so what do I know... :confused2:

 

[Mathman]

That’s why I think the ISU should have extra spots according to season’s best at Worlds.

The ISU does give extra spots according to placement at the previous Worlds. Every member federation gets 1 spot. Then federations can earn an extra 1 or 2 by high placement of their skaters at worlds.

 

[Shayuki]

Fully backloaded programs in a short program are ok for me, but in a free skate it’s just boring. 2 entire minutes of “pretending” to fill the program with lame choreography - and calling attention to weak skating skills. At least without fully backloaded programs, some skaters didn’t have their lack of artistry/musicality/skating skills highlighted. I know everybody loves Alina’s DQ, turns out I’m not one of them. For me, the last 2 minutes are fantastic, the first two make me want to sleep. But for me the whole backloading vs. not backloading discussion is pointless, skaters will have to do whatever ISU says, so let them play by the rules. My tolerance with backloading is probably 1-6 or 2-5, not more than that, but whatever, let skaters skate and let the best win.


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It sounds like you have a problem with poor skating skills and lame choreography. What if the skating skills were excellent and the choreography wasn't lame? I don't see how that's the fault of backloading. I think that it gave some room for very interesting mood-shifting programs that now are essentially impossible.

 

[flanker]

Yes, I am seriously saying exactly that. The second-half bonus was put in to encourage a more "balanced" distribution of highlight elements. When Alina overdid it, the ISU said, Oops, no, that is not what we intended the rule to be, so they changed it -- for all skaters.

I don't know -- this constant whining and crying just rubs me the wrong way.

It's rather whining about Eteri and Alina "overdoing something" while others wanted "ballanced programs". No. The others did mostly five (some four) jumps in the second half not because they wanted "balanced programs", but because they were unable to put more jumps into the last two minutes. If there was no Eteri and no Alina, sooner or later somebody else would appear who would have been able to do that and I don't doubt he would be provided with such program.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Yes, I am seriously saying exactly that. The second-half bonus was put in to encourage a more "balanced" distribution of highlight elements. When Alina overdid it, the ISU said, Oops, no, that is not what we intended the rule to be, so they changed it -- for all skaters.

Yeah, but how is 4-3 program the one with better distribution of highlighted/difficult elements then 3-4. Or even 5-2 and 2-5 if difference in time between 5-2 and 4-3 can be literally 5 seconds. If they really wanted to highlight the distribution of elements, they could rewrite the rule differently. For example - 10% bonus will get those jumps in second half which are preceded by one jumping element, one combination jumping element, one spinning element and one choreo or step sequence element. If those are 2, 3, 4, or 5 jumping elements it is really not important for the highlighted distribution of difficulty. I'm not saying that the rule is necessarily against someone, just how it doesn't make sense in relation to its own arguments.

 

[Mathman]

... Because whoever is the current World Champion, he/she is not the same as everyone else.

I disagree. Last year's World Champion, last season's Olympic champion, last season's most valuable player, is on the same competitive footing with everyone else for the next season.

Weirdly enough, this issue came up in the knock-down, drag-out sport of chess. The reigning champion at the time (Bobby Fischer) refused to defend his championship unless they gave him an automatic tie-break. If the match ended in a draw, he would retain the championship rather than go to overtime. (The international chess federation said, bye Felecia, hello Anatoly Karpov. Years later, Karpov in turn declined to defend his championship in protest against the rules. In the meantime, Gary Kasparov came along, beat Karpov for the title, then quit the International Federation and started up his own International Chess federation in competition. And we think figure skating is full of intrigue. )

I was just giving one of examples from other sports how they 'keep' their 'stars' in the sport, at least for one more year

There are a few sports like that, where you are the champion until a challenger takes it away from you. Boxing, for instance.

But in most sports, no. The football team that won the championship last year is not guaranteed anything the next year. They have to compete in the preliminary rounds and playoffs like everyone else.

Aliona Kostornaia does not automatically get a bye to 2020-21 Europeans just because she won the event in the 2019-2010. There is no guarantee that defending champion Anna Shcherbakova will be invited to Skate America next season.

About keeping the stars in the sport longer for the sake of increasing fan support, that is a laudable goal. But the ISU has painted itself into a corner. The way the scoring rules are now, the younger ladies are going to win and the old time champs are going to lose. I don't think it would help the popularity of the sport to have a two-tier competition, the old guard for the sake of nostalgia and then the skaters who are actually in contention to win.

I think that this is what is behind the talk (nothing but talk so far) about having two programs with different emphasis, tech and artistic. Personally, I don't think this idea will work either. The tech winner will always be able to put up enough "artistry" to win overall, while the artistic winner will never be able to overcome a tech disadvantage.

The bottom line, to me, is that the ISU has created a sport (on the ladies' side) in which young teenagers will always be the top performers. I think that, whether this is a good thing or a bad, that's the reality.

 

[YuBluByMe]

It sounds like you have a problem with poor skating skills and lame choreography. What if the skating skills were excellent and the choreography wasn't lame? I don't see how that's the fault of backloading. I think that it gave some room for very interesting mood-shifting programs that now are essentially impossible.

Jumps aren’t the only way to set a mood. Excellent skating and choreography are what separates brilliance from mediocrity. As an example, Andrew Torgashev had an interesting tonal shift in his SP last season and the placement of the jumps had nothing to do with that. If a skater is unable to portray a shift in mood because backloading is limited, then it’s the skater that needs to change, not the rules.