All right, I edited the OP to make it clear that I do not.
Is having the Junior Pairs category the best solution for Pairs discipline?
- Thread starter Anna K.
- Start date
Actually, I would appreciate if anybody with the appropriate knowledge would explain the reason behind this difference between single and pair requirements. You already mentioned that the most challenging part for youngsters are lifts and throws so this is understandable that the requirements are much lower. But why jumps?
(I personally mentioned jumps because @4everchan mentioned jumps. No other reason behind that.)
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2022
For a long time (and even to some extent today), the skaters who went into pairs were skaters who struggled with jumps even as singles skaters. This holds true even in countries with deep singles fields like Russia - It's just that there a "weaker" jumper can possibly still do some of the more difficult triples semi-consistently.Actually, I would appreciate if anybody with the appropriate knowledge would explain the reason behind this difference between single and pair requirements. You already mentioned that the most challenging part for youngsters are lifts and throws so this is understandable that the requirements are much lower. But why jumps?
As skaters have to give up a significant amount of the time they previously dedicated to jumping to learning pairs elements when switching disciplines, weak jumpers start struggling with jumps even more, so that's why we see mostly doubles in Jr pairs. In Seniors, just doing doubles doesn't cut it anymore, so skaters who have settled into pairs well start focusing more on that to maximize their scoring potential (to varying degrees of success). Limiting jumps is also a subtle (not so subtle) encouragement for teams to focus on developing their pairs elements which increases their safety. Skaters can't just win on the strength of their sbs jumps alone (though they can certainly lose...)
In novices, jumps are even more limited because a pairs program is a lot for in some cases very young skaters, a 10-year-old doing pairs in novices is going to struggle enough with doing a 2A cleanly in a full program without risking the safety of the other elements, triples would just make it worse.
Last edited:
This sounds reasonable indeed.
So, what would you say about this suggestion: there is no Junior Pairs category, the existing Novice Pairs category is extended to 17 years and split in 4 (instead of 2) subcategories: Basic Novice 10-12yo, Basic Novice Plus 12-14yo, Advanced Novice 14-16yo and Advance Novice Plus 16-18yo. And then, tripple jumps are allowed for Advanced Novice Plus category . - ?
Last edited:
If you require partners to be within 2 years of each other, it will be very difficult to form pairs locally at these younger ages when traveling thousands of miles and searching for partners in different countries is not appropriate.
Also, even with the 1-year overlap you seem to be suggesting, if the skaters are 1 year apart in age there will be 1 year out of every 3 that they will not both fall into the same age group and thus would not be able to compete.
The current ISU age limits have wider age overlaps for both singles
And there's no reason for the level that you're calling "Advanced Novice Plus" not to just be called "Junior." Except that you're not allowing male partners over 18 (i.e., 19) to compete at that level, even with a 17-year-old girl. So you're going to force them to move up to seniors even if their skill level is not yet ready, but you won't allow a 15-year-old girl and 17-year-old boy to compete at all even if their skill level is much higher?
Finally, keep in mind that the most dangerous elements in pair skating are not jumps, but rather lifts including twist lifts. So it would be more important to focus on an appropriate developmental pathway for those elements before limiting the jumps.
Not allowing triple jumps until Advanced Novice/Junior would be appropriate, but more important is not to allow Group 5 lifts and triple twists until those levels. But for the talented and experienced young teams who worked their way up from younger ages to Advanced Novice and beyond, some may very well be ready to include those elements by the time the boy is 18.
No, I require (I suggest such requirement as a point of discussion, to be precise
) them to be within 1 year within each other; to be classmates for example. As you already noticed, this is exactly what the overlaps suggest.It depends on what we define as the problem. Is it a problem that pairs split because one of partners grow out of junior age? Make a requirement for them to be about the same age from the very beginning.:the problem solved.
Is it a problem that pairs skating is dangerous for children? Make the pair the same age and create the technical requirements and limitations thinking about the one who is slower in physical development; which is, according to the development of the boy. It will make easier and less dangerous pairs skating for kids. The problem solved.
The only real downside of this solution that I can see is the awfully long transition period. It wouldn't be reasonable to rearrange already formed pairs. So such change could only be introduced starting from newly formed pairs, which would be 10yos, and it would take 7-8 years before it would be in effect fully.
Technically, it could be called "Junior". But wouldn't it be confusing since for singles and Ice Dance "Junior" would mean something different?
Well, why not? After all, if skaters are good at jumping, they can compete in singles parallel to their pair skating (as did Murakami/Moriguchi) and use their jumping skills in pair skating later.
Or, realistically, maybe there is only one teenage male skater in her whole small country who is willing to try pairs.
Of if she lives in a relatively isolated location in the US or Canada, not near a training center, but there is one coach there who used to be an international pairs competitor, maybe there is one boy at her rink or within driving distance who is interested in pairs.
If he's also 13, the the skill level they can achieve and the level they would aim to start competing at would be very different than if he's 18.
But either way, if there's only one, her options are either to skate pairs with that boy or not to skate pairs at all. Until her parents are ready to let her move away from home.
The supply of potential pair partners is far from infinite, and in most cases the pool of potential male partners is much smaller than the pool of potential female partners, so most of the girls who have the interest and talent never get to give pairs a try anyway.
Last edited:
Completely unrealistic.No, I require (I suggest such requirement as a point of discussion, to be precise
This would work in a fantasy world with hundreds of boys and hundreds of girls within reach of each other to pick and choose their partners by age and skill level before they pair up.
In the real world, proximity is often the first criterion at the introductory levels.
Also, there needs to be flexibility in the age groupings so that, e.g., a pair of two 13-year-olds who are already advanced novice-level singles skaters with strong edges, good power, and clean turns to achieve high-level step sequences could team up and compete at a level that at least allows double axels as well as whatever pair skills they are able to achieve depending on their size -- are they pre-pubescent or post-pubescent 13-year-olds? Maybe they don't have the strength and size difference for advanced lifts, but they're both quite advanced skaters for their age.
Vs. a team of two 13-year-olds who are fairly new to skating in general, still working on first learning their double jumps and their first introduction to brackets and twizzles, but they're twins so they always skate the same sessions anyway and they want to focus their attention on beginning-level pairs rather than low-level singles.
Those two teams shouldn't be forced to skate in the same event just because of their age.
That's why there are larger overlaps between the basic, intermediate, and advanced novice levels in the ISU categories, as well as between advanced novice, junior, and senior.
If anything, the age groupings for pairs need more overlap than the groupings for singles, or else there will be hardly any pairs at all that are able to form and continue competing together.
Already there are differences in the age limits for male pair and dance partners than there are for singles.
And there are definitely differences in the meaning "novice," "junior," and "senior" within US and Canadian domestic competition compared with the uses of those words in ISU competition.
Then why does it work for ice dancers?
The junior dance teams tend to be about the same age and make smooth transition to seniors. This is because, when forming a team, they think about the future and in future a smooth transition to seniors is seen as a bigger benefit.
For pairs though, a big guy who can throw a small girl is seen as a bigger benefit. This is the root of the problem and not any tearful story about a desperate 13yo who will certainly quit skating if she is not thrown up in the air right now. (Want to know my answer to her if I was her mom? No, you don't.)
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2019
- Country
-
I think you are forgetting that the thing that is the most important in pair skating is partner synchronicity and the feel for the partner. So, in a country that is so keen on getting the most pluses, Russia, the pairs are the closest in age to make sure they skate together for as long as possible and the partners who are closer in physical parameters are more successful, because they are simply more watchable and more convincing in making acrobatics feel like it means something.
And also because the skills needed for ice dancing are more about matching the level of skating skill. Yes, there are lifts, but they're less about feats of strength than in pairs and less important to the point values than the skating skill moves.
Still, not all dance teams are within a year of two of each other in age (and of those that are, sometimes the girl is older, which can be an issue with the current junior age rules).
Pair skating is all about athletic acrobatic elements. At the lowest levels, not quite so acrobatic, but the developmental path is to work toward those skills.
It's also very very hard to put teams together in pairs because there are so few skaters who want to do it and who have the right body types to do it a level appropriate for their age.
It's much easier to put dance teams together because it's a lot less dependent on body type, so the focus can be more on matching the skills in what happens on the ice, and on the overall look of the team.
It's necessary to achieve those moves, though. Even senior pairs are almost always small to very small women with bigger (by skating standards) men. The reliance on size difference is built into the technical vocabulary of the sport.
For better or worse. It's not my favorite discipline for just that reason.
There is the third option of pairing with another female who wants to skate pairs if she's in Canada. Same-gender ice dance teams are competing at the pre-novice level now, including a team from Newfoundland who would fit the criteria of being in an isolated location without a large pool of male skaters.
It is a way of developing pairs skills at those levels without having to find a male partner at the Juvenile or Pre-Novice level.
And at the same time, there is no other category that adults could switch to as easily from single skating or roller skating.
In fact, I wonder what's the point of having children doing pairs at all given that their body changes when they grow up will make even bigger difference than they do for women. I don't mean 'there's no point". I mean "what's the point?" because we should find this point and focus on this point. And this point could be different than it is for adult/senior skaters.
Synchronicity and teamwork could be one such aspect.
Although in general I am not convinced that this is long skating together that makes a good synchronicity. I'd say it's the overall proficiency of skaters.
Like, Stephane Lambiel and Shizuka Arakawa skate in better synchronicity in an exhibition that they only had weeks to prepare than some pair skaters who are together for years if not decades:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
OT, but that would be a fun thread. I can think of two: Barbara Fusar-Poli was two and a half years older than Marizio Margaglio. And personality-wise she was the boss lady and he was her young handsome triophy partner.
Charlie White is 10 months younger than Meryl Davis. They were both born in the same year, but Meryl was born on the very first day of the year, January1, and Charlie was born in October. When 9-year-old Charlie, an aspiring hockey player, first saw 10-year-old Meryl skate at the local rink, he went home and told his Mom, "I just met the best skater i ever saw in my life!" (Charlie is also ypunger than his wife, Tanith Belbin. I guess he is drawn to older women.
)
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I think that there are not enough pairs skaters period to fill out all these divisions, especially if we envision that there will be separate Grand Prix competitions for each category. The ISU can scarcely find enough qualified pairts to run the senior Grand Prix circuit.
There were a couple of years, some time ago now, when they had to let the top teams compete in three GP events instead of a maximum of two because there were so few pairs at the level that the ISU wanted to showcase to audiences.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Like, Stephane Lambiel and Shizuka Arakawa skate in better synchronicity in an exhibition that they only had weeks to prepare than some pair skaters who are together for years if not decades:
World champions and Olympic medalists -- they can do anything.
Actually, though, they got better at it. I am pretty sure that the first time we saw this pairing was a made-for-US-TV production called Thin Ice, where ten world famous skaters were paired off into five couples in 2010. The judges were Dick Button, Kristi Yamaguchi, and Katarina Witt. I don't remember who won, but Arakawa and Lambiel only finished fourth. They were criticized, especially by Button, exactly on the point that their performasnce presented a lot of solo highlights (spirals by Arakawa, a quad by Lambiel) but was short on "two skating as one." Evidently they took the criticasm to heart and worked on their partnering skills for several later show performances together.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKjWtmfmjbE
Last edited:
A 12-13 year old girl doesn't need to do pairs at all. Skater puberty is delayed compared to the average child who isn't doing daily rigorous exercise, and the girl might grow considerably in the next 3-5 years and end up with not a great body type for pairs. And she should get to go through puberty normally and in a healthy way without being under the microscope of a male partner trying to lift her over his head. The male partner would have to make major adjustments every time the girl has a growth spurt (and instead of being able to adjust, the pair usually just has to split out of safety concerns, lack of skill development, etc).
In addition to that, you'd want a 12-13 year old girl paired up with a boy very similar in age (any sizeable age gap at that age is inappropriate), but very young boys aren't fully grown either, and who knows if they will end up at a good height/body type for pairs. Certainly at 13 or 14 they are too small to lift a girl over their head. Pairs is the one discipline where body type is such a significant part of it, so it seems rather pointless to steer very young children into it. Teaming up skaters at very young ages (say 12 and 13) sometimes works out in ice dance where body type isn't nearly as important.
The world's recent top pair girls never did pairs as very young children and quite a few started as adults (Stellato, Knierim, Conti, Beccari, Pereira), so I don't see why a 13 year old would desperately *need* to do pairs either. It's a discipline geared towards already fully-grown people. The US offers beginner levels of pairs, but I often don't see the point to them. For example in Juvenile pairs, the boy lifts the girl to shoulder level and the twist is completely absent, so it practically just feels like a branch of ice dancing, not real pair skating anyway. Most of the young skaters trying it will never become advanced pair skaters for the reasons mentioned above.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2016
- Country
-
By your definition of within one year (based on your proposed categories for the pairs), then a lot of dances teams are not, actually.
Of the teams who made the FD at JW:
- Neset/Markelov - she's a bit more than 2 years younger
- Grimm/Savitskiy - she's more than 3 years younger
- Peal/Peal - she's more than 3 years younger
- Nguyen/Giang - she's a little less than 2 years younger
- Fradji/Fourneaux - she's a little less than 2 years younger
- Pederson/Chen - she's nearly 5 years younger
- Kishimoto/Tamura - she's more than 3 years younger
- Slatter/Ongay-Perez - she's more than 2 years younger
- Pidgaina/Koval - she's 4 years younger
- Korneva/MacDonald - she's nearly 4 years younger
- Beznosikova/Leleu - she's a bit less than 3 years younger
- Dovhal/Kulesza - she's more than 3 years younger
- Blaasova/Blaas - she's 3 years younger
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2022
One year age difference at most at the younger levels is not going to make pairs any safer, but just more dangerous.
In order to safely do pairs lifts, a height difference of at least 10 cm, better 15+ cm is pretty much necessary, especially when the boys have not built up a lot of upper body strength yet. In the US for example, the average 13-year-old girl is just 7 cm shorter than the average 14-year-old boy, as girls enter puberty earlier (and thus finish the majority of their growth earlier).
On the other hand, pre-Senior pairs development is very important. Not so much maybe for the women (there are a number of women who didn't switch until their late teens, or even as adults), though there are definitely some advantages even for them (many of the most successful female pairs skaters started pairs young, like Ekaterina Gordeeva (10), Sui Wenjing (12/13), Shen Xue, Pang Qing and Aliona Savchenko (all 13)), but especially for the male partners. It's just that pre-Senior doesn't mean 12-13 for them, but usually 14/15-17.
Pairs requires a very specific skill set from the male partner, and it just takes a lot of time for them to build up the strength and balance for lifts and twists, and training for pairs (not necessarily competing in pairs yet) from a younger age is very helpful to develop the muscles and muscle memories as you go through puberty.
In order to safely do pairs lifts, a height difference of at least 10 cm, better 15+ cm is pretty much necessary, especially when the boys have not built up a lot of upper body strength yet. In the US for example, the average 13-year-old girl is just 7 cm shorter than the average 14-year-old boy, as girls enter puberty earlier (and thus finish the majority of their growth earlier).
On the other hand, pre-Senior pairs development is very important. Not so much maybe for the women (there are a number of women who didn't switch until their late teens, or even as adults), though there are definitely some advantages even for them (many of the most successful female pairs skaters started pairs young, like Ekaterina Gordeeva (10), Sui Wenjing (12/13), Shen Xue, Pang Qing and Aliona Savchenko (all 13)), but especially for the male partners. It's just that pre-Senior doesn't mean 12-13 for them, but usually 14/15-17.
Pairs requires a very specific skill set from the male partner, and it just takes a lot of time for them to build up the strength and balance for lifts and twists, and training for pairs (not necessarily competing in pairs yet) from a younger age is very helpful to develop the muscles and muscle memories as you go through puberty.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I am always astonished that any lady can take up pairs at a later age. To me, it’s similar to trapeze. In the glory days of the circus the top flyers (boys and girls) often came from trapeze families and had been launched through the air (and caught by their fathers) since they were toddlers. Later in life, your body just refuses to put itself in a position where serious injury seems inevitable. The body says to the brain, “you might be a reckless fool, but I’m not.”
Like, the average untrained person cannot force himself to fall over backward with the assurance that somebody behind you is going to catch you.
On the men’s side, if your partner is not light as a feather, the trick of just a simple carry lift, to me, is a prodigy of maintaining a secure edge while wrestling with center of gravity, etc. Even just skating around with a real feather (or without one), sometimes skaters fall for no apparent reason.
Maybe the real solution is to phase out this dare-devil discipline altogether.
Like, the average untrained person cannot force himself to fall over backward with the assurance that somebody behind you is going to catch you.
On the men’s side, if your partner is not light as a feather, the trick of just a simple carry lift, to me, is a prodigy of maintaining a secure edge while wrestling with center of gravity, etc. Even just skating around with a real feather (or without one), sometimes skaters fall for no apparent reason.
Maybe the real solution is to phase out this dare-devil discipline altogether.
Similar threads
