Is having the Junior Pairs category the best solution for Pairs discipline?

[4everchan]

If we are worried about safety, then a lot of sports are problematic. Downhill skiing for instance, just to name one. This is why it is important for parents of young skaters to be informed about what is good and bad practice. That way, they can accompany their children in long term athletic development. That's why I shared the link to that document. What matters most is that the concerned individuals are aware and happy. It is so easy for fans to make judgements about circumstances we know nothing about. I am all about limiting the age gaps. That was my first post in this thread. At the same time, if the only male partner available in a specific area is 4 or 5 years older, should we deny a young girl access to her sport? So what matters to me the most at this point is changing some of the culture within forming partnerships when there are options available and making sure that parents are aware of progressive development with long term goals. It then remains to them to monitor the well being of their children.

 

[gkelly]

At the same time, if the only male partner available in a specific area is 4 or 5 years older, should we deny a young girl access to her sport?

And possibly deny the boy access as well, if there are no other girls in the area who are 1) close to his age, 2) close to his skating skill level, 3) different enough in size to accomplish the pair moves expected in advanced novice (since he's older, he's too old for Basic Novice), and 4) actually interested in skating pairs.

 

[Mathman]

So what matters to me the most at this point is changing some of the culture within forming partnerships when there are options available and making sure that parents are aware of progressive development with long term goals. It then remains to them to monitor the well being of their children.

My first thought is that it is not easy to change the culture, to make parents more aware of this and thet, to exercise greater dilligence with regard to possibilties of abuse and exploitation -- laudable goals all, to whatever extent it can or will ever be done.

Or, in the meantime, we could change the age rules.

I don't know whether or not changing the age rules will really make things better. But it is somethiong that can be done. Changing cultures? Making skate-parents and skating federations put aside their paramount goal of winning as many medals as possible no matter what? That's a tougher nut to crack.

 

[Mathman]

And possibly deny the boy access as well, if there are no other girls in the area who are 1) close to his age, 2) close to his skating skill level, 3) different enough in size to accomplish the pair moves expected in advanced novice (since he's older, he's too old for Basic Novice), and 4) actually interested in skating pairs.

To me, number 3 is the killer. If the sine qua non of pairs skating is that the girl must be as tiny as possible, it is hard to see how any progress can be made on the age issue.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

To me, number 3 is the killer. If the sine qua non of pairs skating is that the girl must be as tiny as possible, it is hard to see how any progress can be made on the age issue.

The girl must not be "as tiny as possible", she just needs to have a decent height difference from her partner. It's interesting how people keep on talking about the pressure on the female partner to be "tiny" but not about the pressure for male partners to be tall and muscular, after all, chronic upper body injuries (back and shoulders) are extremely common among male pairs skaters (just two recent examples - Ryuichi Kihara and Robert Kunkel, and on top of that both even have the stereotypical "tiny" partners).

And I repeat, for height differences, huge age differences are not necessary. For example, Minerva Hase and Nikita Volodin are born 13 days apart, and by the time they were both 16, their height difference was 24 cm, which would have been a perfectly fine height difference if they had paired up back then. The very tiny Aussies (Bellamy-Martins/Pradeaux) are just under a year and three months apart and at the ages of 14 and 15, their height difference is a whopping 27 cm.

Yes, there will be selection pressures for height, a selection for certain physical (and mental) traits is to be expected in any elite sport. They don't have to come at as high of a price as many believe though.
And yes, different growth patterns do mean that there will be rough patches in some partnerships, and yes, they also mean that some pairs will split because the skaters didn't develop as expected. It's not nice to think about, but it's in the nature of any partnered sport - And sometimes necessary to ensure the physical health of both partners.

 

[el henry]

I don't even look at height differences or care. For me, it's not like you have to be 6'6" to play in the NBA, suck it up, it's the real world, let's talk about it. Then again, what is wonderful for me about figure skating has never been measurable or quantifiable.

I would love for pairs skating to return to the Protopopovs. I realize it's a pipe dream, but a dream I like.

What does this have to do with age differences in junior pairs? I don't know.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I don't even look at height differences or care. For me, it's not like you have to be 6'6" to play in the NBA, suck it up, it's the real world, let's talk about it. Then again, what is wonderful for me about figure skating has never been measurable or quantifiable.

While it's not as strict as the NBA (though they have some "shorter" (LOL) exceptions too), there are physical requirements even in skating. A male skater who is only 159 cm tall like Shoma Uno is not going to have much luck in either of the partnered disciplines, but especially in pairs, that's just the way it is.

I would love for pairs skating to return to the Protopopovs. I realize it's a pipe dream, but a dream I like.

Style-wise, there's definitely a difference between back then and now, but when it comes to age differences or height differences, they would not stand out today (3 years and 5 months, 15 cm). Career-trajectory-wise, they were unique even back then, both not starting skating (not even pairs, just skating in general) until they were 15 and 16 respectively, which seems unthinkable today with the technical requirements in all disciplines of skating. The only one I can think of who picked up skating this late (or even later) is Matteo Guarise, and he was a roller skater before (even a World Champion), so he had a lot of transferrable skills already.

What does this have to do with age differences in junior pairs? I don't know.

Juniors still grow, and as boys and girls grow at different times (and rates), if a height difference is necessary (or desirable), coaches often pair up younger girls with older boys to avoid (temporary) "growing pains" and achieve quick success, which is the reason for many of the big age differences in Junior pairs.

 

[4everchan]

My first thought is that it is not easy to change the culture, to make parents more aware of this and thet, to exercise greater dilligence with regard to possibilties of abuse and exploitation -- laudable goals all, to whatever extent it can or will ever be done.

Or, in the meantime, we could change the age rules.

I don't know whether or not changing the age rules will really make things better. But it is somethiong that can be done. Changing cultures? Making skate-parents and skating federations put aside their paramount goal of winning as many medals as possible no matter what? That's a tougher nut to crack.

depends. Sport Canada is working very hard in all disciplines to make sport healthier and safer... There is a reason why they publish documents like the one i shared. Look at some of the pairs they recently formed... like Martina and Charly, 16 and 18 and how great they are already winning a small medal at JWC with less than a year together. Annika and Kole are also 2 years apart, have many triples already and won YOG. It can be done if people care for it. Creating healthy partnership doesn't equate to not making it... actually, it's aimed at long term development instead of the musical chairs we see in some cases with younger girls always having to move partners as their much older male partner is aging out.. etc.

 

[Mathman]

I think that Tai Babilonia abd Randy Gardner provide an interesting case study. They were the most successful U.S. pairs team ever, winning 5 U.S. titles and the 1979 world championship. They were paired together when he was 10 and she was 8. But she grew more than he did and during their senior career she was 159 cm (5'3") and he was only about 10 cm (4 inches) taller. Their coach, John Nicks, himself a fine pairs akter with his sister, had to modify the choreography to emphasize unison, speed and side by side kumps more, to make up for struggling somewhat to achieve enough height to get in the rotations for a triple twist.

(Anecdote: Tai and Randy were put together as children when their first coach (and skating impresario) Mabel Fairbanks needed a pairs act for a local show that she was putting on. In one of their first shows together Randy suffered a costume malfunction when his pants split open on an aptly-named split jump. More than 50 years later he still remembers it as his most embarrassing moment in skating.)

 

[4everchan]

My first thought is that it is not easy to change the culture, to make parents more aware of this and thet, to exercise greater dilligence with regard to possibilties of abuse and exploitation -- laudable goals all, to whatever extent it can or will ever be done.
Changing cultures? Making skate-parents and skating federations put aside their paramount goal of winning as many medals as possible no matter what? That's a tougher nut to crack.

You know, in my field, also very competitive, perhaps not as dangerous there are MANY parents now, those from a younger generation who are VERY clear about wanting their kids do things in a recreational manner. I actually have to make sure that kids "train" enough so they get good basics as otherwise, there is absolutely no growth and then, no fun and no recreation Not all parents want their kids to become the next star, quite the opposite as a matter of fact. The culture is already evolving. I have been working long enough to see this shift right under my eyes.

 

[JeanA]

I am sure it got lost in this thread, but at what age does a male pairs skater age out in Juniors? 21? Or higher? 21 isn't exactly the fountain of youth in skating. I can think of many pairs where the age gap was pretty eye-popping (Gordeyeva/Grinkov, Kovarikova/Novotny) but they were the best pair they could make in their countries. The world of skating would have been at a major loss (and several gold championships, including Olympics) had they been denied competing.

I was always for a 16 year lower age limit. The world still remained and revolved around the sun without having Michelle Kwan have to wait until she was 21 to make her Olympic debut. It's quite ridiculous if you think about it.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I am sure it got lost in this thread, but at what age does a male pairs skater age out in Juniors? 21?

Yes, 21 for the male partner. 19 for the female partner.

Gordeyeva/Grinkov

G/G had a 4 year gap, and would not even have run into eligibility issues under the new age cutoff.

Kovarikova/Novotny

Using a team as an example that teamed up when she was 15 and he was 25 and promptly got engaged basically as soon as she turned 18 is probably not making the argument that you think you are making.

The world still remained and revolved around the sun without having Michelle Kwan have to wait until she was 21 to make her Olympic debut.

And the world would have kept on turning if she had been.
In men's singles and ice dance, it's completely normal for skaters not to move to seniors until they age out, and to not make their Olympic debuts until 19, 20, 21 or even older, and nobody bats an eye at that.

 

[TallyT]

The world still remained and revolved around the sun without having Michelle Kwan have to wait until she was 21 to make her Olympic debut. It's quite ridiculous if you think about it.

The world didn't then have to deal with over-skinny 15-17 year old, tiny phenoms doing quads etc then aging out before they were old enough to make their own choices, with chronic injuries and eating disorders for another 50, 60 or more years, for our entertainment. The world will revolve without it.

In men's singles and ice dance, it's completely normal for skaters not to move to seniors until they age out, and to not make their Olympic debuts until 19, 20, 21 or even older, and nobody bats an eye at that.

I mean I am biased. My man moved to seniors at 15 and never competed in juniors again, I can see where some boys as well as girls, singles and couples, may be disadvantaged over the period of change, and I can see where my approval of the raise could be seen as unfair. And I don't care if it is. Their welfare is more important than our viewing pleasure.

(ps - non sequitur but I looked up what caused the most sport injuries and number 2 was... using exercise equipment. I knew it was bad for me!!!)

 

[gkelly]

Yes, 21 for the male partner. 19 for the female partner.

G/G had a 4 year gap, and would not even have run into eligibility issues under the new age cutoff.

This year's (2023-24) senior age minimum is 16 as part of the phasing-in process, and as noted the maximum for junior male partners is 21.

Under this year's rules, Gordeeva would have first been eligible for seniors in 1988 season, so they probably would have gone to 1988 Olympics as 3-time junior world champions rather than as 2-time senior world champions. Still entirely possible that they would have won.

Under next year's rules, assuming there is no change or temporary exception for pairs, she would not have been eligible for seniors until the 1989 season. Just in time, because Grinkov would have been too old for juniors in 1989. But they would have still been junior in 1988.

In men's singles and ice dance, it's completely normal for skaters not to move to seniors until they age out, and to not make their Olympic debuts until 19, 20, 21 or even older, and nobody bats an eye at that.

Yes, that's normal, because men tend to reach their top jumping ability in their later teens and to sustain or improve it into their 20s.

There certainly have been men who started competing at the senior level at 15 (or younger before the 1996 rules took full effect) but when they first compete at the Olympics (assuming they get there at all) depends in part on where their birth year falls within the Olympic cycle and also on the depth of the field in their home country as to whether they will make the Olympic team when first age eligible.

For example, Evgeny Plushenko was able to compete senior in 1997-98 only because of the same "grandfather" clause that allowed Tara Lipinski to compete that year (and the year before -- they were born the same year but her birthday is before the July 1 cutoff and his is after). Plushenko didn't make the 1998 Olympic team but he was an alternate, and he medaled at his first European and World championships that season. Under next year's rules, with no grandfathering and no transitional stepping up of the age rules as we're having now, he'd have had to spend an extra 3 years in juniors before a senior debut in the 2000-2001 season.

For the skaters who are not potential medal contenders at 15 or 16, the pressure is lower and they were able to fly under the radar getting experience at Worlds or Olympics if they made their country's teams at those first-senior years. Some might carry unreasonably high hopes from their home country's press, but in general they'd have less attention and lower expectations than if they'd already shown themselves to be competitive at the top level.

For the prodigies (more likely female than male) who were competitive with the older top seniors from those ages, the pressure was higher, fans around the world and the global press more likely to know about them if they're making a splash in senior competition at those young ages, and more likely to retire in their teens (especially girls from countries with deep fields) if they do manage to win Olympic gold.

I think it's primarily that kind of pressure that the current increase in age rules (still being phased in) was designed to avoid. And the contradiction of a skater being old enough to compete on the highest stage but too young according to WADA "protected person" rules to be held fully responsible for doping violations.

There are other reasons that have been floated over the years for raising the age limits. Including the kind of image the sport wants to present to the world (young adults and physically mature older adolescents) and protecting younger teens from the physical demands of the most difficult skills (not that effective because if young teens can do quads, they will train them to use in the junior free skates or at least to have them ready by the time they're old enough for seniors). For those reasons, another way of addressing the issues could have been to adjust the scoring rules to give more weight to skills that tend to improve at older ages and less to number of rotations in the air, or even to flexibility per se.

It does seem that the Valieva situation in 2022 was the tipping point that convinced more ISU members that raising the senior age minimum would be a good thing.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Yes, that's normal, because men tend to reach their top jumping ability in their later teens and to sustain or improve it into their 20s.

And history tells us that the same is true for pairs (and Dancers), so why are people having issues with pairs women having to be 17 to compete as Seniors?

The last time a skater below 18 was on the Olympic podium in pairs was in 1987/88 (as you said, that was Gordeeva), and in the last 24 years only 5 of the medalists of major Sr competitions (Olympics, Worlds, Euros/4CC, GPF) would have been ineligible for Srs under the new age rules - Three of them only won one Sr medal in their career, mostly due to the female partner retiring.

 

[gkelly]

And history tells us that the same is true for pairs (and Dancers), so why are people having issues with pairs women having to be 17 to compete as Seniors?

The last time a skater below 18 was on the Olympic podium in pairs was in 1987/88 (as you said, that was Gordeeva), and in the last 24 years only 5 of the medalists of major Sr competitions (Olympics, Worlds, Euros/4CC, GPF) would have been ineligible for Srs under the new age rules - Three of them only won one Sr medal in their career, mostly due to the female partner retiring.

I would guess (hope?) that the idea is to give a longer transition time for the senior pair ages, so that novice teams who had already formed before summer 2022 with enough age difference that they would run into a year or two when the man aged out of juniors and the woman was not yet eligible for seniors would be able to stay together and be able to compete every year.

Hopefully any teams now forming with the knowledge that the younger partner can't compete senior until age 17 will take that into account when pairing up.

But as discussed earlier, there will still be reasons for novice and junior teams with largish age differences to form, with the knowledge that either they will need to sit out a year or two or they will need to find new partners at that time.

A 16- or 17-year-old girl with pair experience is certainly in a better position to find a junior-eligible partner from across the country or from another country than a 12-year-old first learning the discipline with whoever might be available nearby.

 

[saine]

But as discussed earlier, there will still be reasons for novice and junior teams with largish age differences to form, with the knowledge that either they will need to sit out a year or two or they will need to find new partners at that time.

A 16- or 17-year-old girl with pair experience is certainly in a better position to find a junior-eligible partner from across the country or from another country than a 12-year-old first learning the discipline with whoever might be available nearby.

If the only option for a 12 year old girl to compete or learn pairs is to team up with a man with a large age difference from her, then she doesn't need to go into pairs.

Train her towards competing the pairs elements when she's older, fine. But she doesn't need to go into a situation where there will be a power imbalance against her due to her age. There's time for her to go into pairs later if she still wants to try it out when she's older.

 

[JeanA]

Yes, 21 for the male partner. 19 for the female partner.

Yes, that is what I thought. Merci.

G/G had a 4 year gap, and would not even have run into eligibility issues under the new age cutoff.

Actually, I believe you are wrong. Gordeyeva's birthday is in May of 1971. Under the new age ability cut-off, she would have to be 17 by July 1 of 1987. I am sure you can do the math and realize that what you said is a falsehood.

Using a team as an example that teamed up when she was 15 and he was 25 and promptly got engaged basically as soon as she turned 18 is probably not making the argument that you think you are making.

Perhaps you should know more about Kov/Nov before you post? Radka was known to have teamed up with Rene when she was only 13 (perhaps earlier) in 1988. And he was 25. I don't think you are making an argument that you think you are making when you clearly have no clue to the actual data. (I guess you just make up numbers and 'facts' in your head? Who knows.) There was a TWELVE year age difference between them, if you don't do mathematics very well.

Please do better.

 

[TallyT]

Perhaps you should know more about Kov/Nov before you post? Radka was known to have teamed up with Rene when she was only 13 in 1988. And he was 25. I don't think you are making an argument that you think you are making when you clearly have no clue to the actual data.

Err... you do realise that you have made their case sound even worse and more unsavory with this correction? Otherwise, I don't think it's the gotcha you think it is...

 

[JeanA]

Err... you do realise that you have made their case sound even worse and more unsavory with this correction? Otherwise, I don't think it's the gotcha you think it is...

I am not doing a "gotcha", I am solely stating facts, which some can not seem to do. I don't even follow pairs, as I think it is too dangerous for any child, sister, to do. I can't watch the discipline. What you think is me making a "gotcha", in reality is just stating that in history Gordeyeva would never had her first Olympic gold in 1988, when she was clearly the class of the field. She was a CHILD in Calgary Olympics and many people think the ISU should have protected her. But then the same people think that Kwan's performances in Nagano were legendary and she should have not just been allowed to perform even if she was just a CHILD, but should have won the gold medal. I see a blatant hypocrisy here, and I don't think that they are making the argument they think they are making. Sorry.