2017 Canadian Nats Senior Short Dance

Friday, January 20, 2017
16:14 (HTC -5)

Senior Ice Dance Short Dance

Time in other places
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldcl...66&p7=37&p8=235&p9=248&p10=33&p11=240&p12=224

Ottawa, Ontario at The Arena at TD Place

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Starting Order Name Section

1 Vanessa Chartrand / Alexander Seidel QC
SD"This Love" and "Umbrella" by the Baseballs
FD Flamenco, "Excuses A Lola" by Matte Martin

2 Elysia-Marie Campbell / Philippe Granger QC
SD "Come Together" and "I Saw Her Standing There" by the Beatles
FD Bond Medley: "Goldeneye" by Tina Turner, "Live and Let Die" from the soundtrack

3 Mira Samoisette / Dominic Barthe QC
SD "Good Golly Miss Molly" by Little Richard and "Unchained Melody"
FD "The Summer Knows" from the Summer of '42 soundtrack

4 Sarah Arnold / Thomas Williams BC/YK
SD "As Time Goes By" by Vera Lynn; String of Pearls; choreo by Megan Wing & Aaron Lowe
FD Downton Abbey soundtrack, composed by John Lunn; choreo by Mark Pillay

5 Haley Sales / Nikolas Wamsteeker BC/YK
SD "Feeling Good," performed by Nina Simone
FD "Somebody to Love;"and "Love of My Life" by Queen

6 Carolanne Soucisse / Shane Firus QC
SD "Minnie the Moocher;" "Soda Pop" by Robbie Williams; choreo by Romain Haguenauer
FD "Impossible Love" by Melody Gardot; "Desde de Alma" composed by Osvaldo Pugliese; "Taquito Militar"by Ensemble Romulo Larrea and Veronica Larc; choreo by Romain Haguenauer

7 Tessa Virtue / Scott Moir QC
SD Prince medley, including "5 Women," "Purple Rain" and "Kiss;" choreo by David Wilson, M.-F. Dubreuil, S. Choinard
FD Pilgrims on a Long Journey by Coeur de Pirate, Latch (Acoustic) by Sam Smith; choreo by David Wilson, M.-F. Dubreuil, S. Choinard
FAN FEST: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?38656-Tessa-Virtue-amp-Scott-Moir


8 Piper Gilles / Paul Poirier CO
SD Blues: Oh What a Night for Dancing by Barry White, Vance Wilson, Disco: Disco Inferno by Leroy Green and Ron Kersey; choreo by Carol Lane, Juris Razguliaevs
FD Argentine Tango: " Con Buena Onda by Daniel Lomuto, Ernesto Baffa, Hector M. Arce;" choreo by Carol Lane, Juris Razguliaevs
FAN FEST: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?55187-Piper-Gilles-amp-Paul-Poirier

9 Kaitlyn Weaver / Andrew Poje NO
SD Blues: The Way You Make Me Feel by Judith Hill, Hip Hop: Dangerous by Michael Jackson, Hip Hop: Jam by Michael Jackson; choreo by Nikolai Morozov
FD Concierto de Aranjuez by Rodrigo; choreo by Nikolai Morozov
FAN FEST http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...yn-Weaver-amp-Andrew-Poje&p=905446#post905446

Really have a feeling that if G/P can skate like they did at Skate Canada they may end up 2nd after the short program here. W/P seem to be making too many little errors in their short this season.

Weaver and Poje should be fine, as long as they'd avoid costly mistakes.
GP don't have a great skating skills, their choreographic base is quite poor and they mostly relying on taky choreography and gimmicks to cover up the issues with their skating. The crowd may like them, but it is a sport after al..

juliajk said:

Weaver and Poje should be fine, as long as they'd avoid costly mistakes.
GP don't have a great skating skills, their choreographic base is quite poor and they mostly relying on taky choreography and gimmicks to cover up the issues with their skating. The crowd may like them, but it is a sport after al..

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hwell: i beg to disagree

I really think W/P's best years are behind them. They had 2 great years where they seemed on top of the world and had great chances to win worlds and both times they came up short as far as the judges were concerned. I don't think they will get any such chances again and I think they know it and are therefore feeling the pressure a bit more and that is what causes their mistakes.

It that was the case, they'd be retiring this season, not changing coaches, their entire skating technique and moving to other side of the globe.
They are going trough a huge change, things like that need time, which they don't have unfortunately, and that's my only concern. But they are willing to fight for their place, and they can succeed, their material is really really good this year.

It seems to me that WeaPos have been treated unfairly since the start of last year, and they have been dropped like a hot potato since V/M reappeared on the scene. Let's just remind ourselves what they've achieved in the past two years. Up until GP Final in Barcelona 2016 they ruled, okay apparently godlike P/C couldn't be beaten in the eyes of many...including judges. They were a bit unfortunate at the 4CC, but boy, were they treated badly at Worlds! They weren't even invited to the Gala! V/M come out of retirement and do WR and all sorts? Really? I've seen WeaPos perform live at Rostelecom and they were abysmally scored low in the SD and ever since. I'm seriously worried they will not get the credit they well and truly deserve.

As far as G/P are concerned, I absolutely love them! They are quirky and different, on and off the ice and I say fair bloody play to you! I hope they do well.

I'd like to know what the issues are in Piper and Paul's skating. For those who believe they are using choreography to cover up their weaknesses - please enlighten me. Clearly I am missing something.

Because as far as I know, the ISU thinks their skating is good enough to allow them to create a new pattern dance. It's called The Maple Leaf March. To be used from the 2018-2019 season.

Paul is a great skater, Piper-not so much. To say it shortly, she's skates mainly on straight legs, shallow edges and poor ice coverage. She improved quite a lot, just a couple seasons ago Paul used to literally drag her across the ice, but from what I saw in France she's still by far the weakest female ice dancer in worlds top 10.
My main problem with them this season is the actual dancing in the tango. The steps are difficult, and they doing them right, but their posture and their lines make me cringe a little bit every time I see them.The quirky choreography does fits them much better than more classical pieces, they don't have enough classic dance training for those.
The pattern has absolutely nothing to do with them as skaters, it is more about their choreographer who created the pattern, they just happened to be the first ones to perform it. Kaliszek and Spodyriev's foxtrot also was selected as a new pattern, which has nothing to do with the quality of their skating.

Emilia12 said:

Paul is a great skater, Piper-not so much. To say it shortly, she's skates mainly on straight legs, shallow edges and poor ice coverage. She improved quite a lot, just a couple seasons ago Paul used to literally drag her across the ice, but from what I saw in France she's still by far the weakest female ice dancer in worlds top 10.
My main problem with them this season is the actual dancing in the tango. The steps are difficult, and they doing them right, but their posture and their lines make me cringe a little bit every time I see them.The quirky choreography does fits them much better than more classical pieces, they don't have enough classic dance training for those.
The pattern has absolutely nothing to do with them as skaters, it is more about their choreographer who created the pattern, they just happened to be the first ones to perform it. Kaliszek and Spodyriev's foxtrot also was selected as a new pattern, which has nothing to do with the quality of their skating.

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You do realize they also choreographed that pattern, right? They not only helped choreograph it, but they performed it sufficiently well enough to earn a level 4 for it at Worlds 2016. And now they've made an ISU video for it. :eekn:

France was also their worst competition of the season. The only time they were below 70 points in the SD. It's like concluding Tessa & Scott's progress as ice dancers in their return based on Skate Canada International results. Which some on this site actually did do, pointing out that they were beaten by Chock/Bates once so it could happen again. We've seen how much has changed since that last weekend in October.

I've heard nothing but praise for that tango FD. Pj Kwong even describes it as one of the best Argentine tangos she's ever seen. They've been training for it off ice too.

With all due respect to Kaliszek/Spodyriev, I think the reason they have a pattern dance has more to do with their nationality than it does other factors.

I didn't knew they helped to choreograph the pattern, if they did good for them, but still it has nothing to do with their skating skills. Coming from experience of over 15 years of experience as ballroom dancer and teacher I actually enjoyed the foxtrot pattern much more than the march, the choreographer did fantastic job with it.
I've attended quite a few competitions in my days, this season I was lucky enough to attend both CoR and Trophee de France, Gillis/Poirier improved from where they were last season, but they are just not good enough yet to compete with Weaver and Poje.
As far as the critiques goes, I choose to believe to my own eyes over the opinions of experts who might have their own agenda to push.

You may have enjoyed that pattern by the Polish team, but the technical panel didn't even think it worthy of a level 4. There was a great discussion about the politics of this selection on another board but it's not permissable to link to it so you can hunt that down yourself if you like.

So who are the experts of which you speak and which agendas are they pushing? We all need to be on the same page here if we are having a discussion.

I think you'll find the judges may disagree with you about Piper and Paul not cutting it. The judges at Challenge liked them well enough. Though I have understood some Kaitlyn and Andrew fans are not liking the scores Piper and Paul are getting. I like both so I don't really care, but I see the negative comments flowing on social media.

A few things keep hurting Kaitlyn and Andrew. One is the fact that they keep having to change their SD. Last season they made it work in time for the GP and GPF. This year they took so long with it they missed Finlandia and were not ready until Cup of China. They are the kind of team that needs a Challenger series event to work out the kinks and maybe they could have made GPF if they didn't wait until Cup of Russia for that. Their top score is still considered tier 2, as the tier 1 teams are scoring closer to or beyond 76 points now. Their FD result was virtually unchanged on the GP, and would have been the same if they hadn't gotten a 1.00 point deduction in China. It's also at tier 2 level as tier 1 teams are over 111 now. Honestly, Kaitlyn and Andrew don't need to worry about Piper and Paul if they want to be world medallists again. They need to worry about the rest of the field. That, and consistency. Major mistakes at ISU Championships in consecutive seasons does them no favours.

But we are discussing nationals so I expect to see great skates from all the top teams. And if you see any of them losing levels you can start prognosticating Four Continents results.

First of all you are mixing up skating skills with levels of execution, and that's two different things, judged by different panels and reflected at two different scores. As far as the scoring goes, the dynamics is that Weaver and Poje being less prepared for the first half of the season scoring more internationally than Gillis and Poirier. Challenge scores, as they often do at national competitions are ridiculous, I cannot believe someone actually takes it seriously.
Kaitlyn and Andrew are going through a lot right now with the coach changes, the fact that VM are back reflecting their scores as well, but they are still a top notch team, and I really do want them to do well, especially because their programs are so good this season. If they skate clean, there is no reason for them to be placed lower than second

Excited to see VM skate for a home crowd and hoping they can let loose even more, especially in the FD. I wonder how high their scores will go?

I really like W/P's SD. I'm not the biggest fan of their FD, but the stationary lift at the start of the program is one of my favourite's this season. I do expect to see major improvements from them as they've had nearly two months to work out the kinks since CoC.

I'm also a fan of G/P. Their SD is catchy and quirky, and their FD was a smart choice. I don't emotionally connect to it (yet), but I enjoy it for what it is.

Also randomly, the last Canadian Nats I saw live before I moved to the UK was in 2012. Never forget the reaction of three older women sitting by me when Tessa fell out of a swizzle in the SD and nearly faceplanted. They all gasped so loudly and one of them had to put her head in her lap for a second... ...lol. Hoping for no falls or stumbles from any of the teams this year, though! Clean skates for everyone :agree:

I would say the pick of the Polish team's pattern was due to the same sort of considerations as Piper and Paul's, and for that matter any other pattern dance, primarily choreographic, and partially utilitarian, satisfying a gap in the current canon of ISU pattern dances.

Being picked should depend on:
1. Does the dance capture the correct character of the dance?
The Polish team's foxtrot was an authentic foxtrot, and a delightful one at that! Piper and Paul's march was clearly, and enjoyably, a march.
2. Is the dance at the correct level for the envisioned use (novice, junior, or senior). Clearly both dances were difficult enough to challenge seniors, but not be nearly impossible for top teams. The Polish team's dance could be used in Juniors as well as Seniors, not a bad thing.
3. Does the dance have interesting and unique features? Both did.

The only part of being selected that would have to do with skating skills is whether(or not) the team gets to do the demonstration video. Piper and Paul are doing their march. I do not know whether the Polish team is doing their demo.

And if you would like to publish a link to a discussion somewhere else, that's fine.

What you can't do is violate copyright by copying over big blocks of text.

And you should not board-drag arguments from one board to another., in general.

Doris you have summarized why it was chosen from a technical point of view. I thought that was all that mattered, but then I read further. I haven't seen the selection being discussed at length here but was elsewhere though as you say it's not encouraged to bring over things from other boards. That's why I'm referring to this without linking.

Emilia12 do you think a skater with poor skating skills will also be able to get level 4s and 3s across the board? Possibly you could. But your GOEs and PCS would reflect those skills. Piper and Paul's PCS and GOEs aren't terribly low, and they're getting higher PCS this season actually. In a field like ice dance that would seem to suggest they've gotten better, but YMMV.

Of course I am aware that Kaitlyn and Andrew have made big changes. That is why I believe it is Kaitlyn and Andrew who hold keys to their success in their own hands, and not whatever happens with Piper and Paul. They can't realistically beat Tessa & Scott, but they have a lot going for them and they can certainly do well. They need to keep up with the Americans though. I want to see them skate lights out in the 2nd half of the season after at least two years of not doing that.

I think teams and skaters that are trying their best to establish a position for themselves in Canada would beg to differ about Challenge results. The marks may not be of great value to some, but getting feedback for step sequences, lifts, jump technique, etc. matters. Challenge is also a necessary pre-requisite for non-national team members and those without byes to even get to Nationals. It's the event where the pre-novice champions are decided. Some skaters even get international assignments based in part on their results at Challenge. Many of the national records were also set at Challenge. It's not some club competition with your local judges that Skate Canada would like you to dismiss.

4everchan said:

hwell: i beg to disagree

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I am so tired of G/P getting flak still :hopelessness: Poor skating skills, shallow edges etc. I don't think Piper is as bad as people want to portray her here She's pretty good right now. They make steady improvement since 2014 in my oppinion and look like team with great potential for the future.

Why is no one mentioning how much Weaver/Poje's skating skills have degraded since they left DSC? They're much slower and less powerful and skate on much shallower edges.

I'm still baffled by why they chose to go to Morozov. Looking at the wonderful programs DSC gave Hawayek/Baker to work with this season makes me think they should've just stuck it out instead of panicking over VM's comeback and making rash decisions. If they lose Canada #2 to Piper and Paul and/or fail to podium at 4 Continents, then they are done politically. Their PCS this season is already several points lower than the scores they got last season.

olayolay said:

Why is no one mentioning how much Weaver/Poje's skating skills have degraded since they left DSC? They're much slower and less powerful and skate on much shallower edges.

I'm still baffled by why they chose to go to Morozov. Looking at the wonderful programs DSC gave Hawayek/Baker to work with this season makes me think they should've just stuck it out instead of panicking over VM's comeback and making rash decisions. If they lose Canada #2 to Piper and Paul and/or fail to podium at 4 Continents, then they are done politically. Their PCS this season is already several points lower than the scores they got last season.

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4CC ice dance podium will be so interesting. We kinda already know gold and silver. But who takes the bronze? So many teams in the conversation!

It will also be interesting to see who comes 4th and 5th at Nationals. Looks like Soucisse/Firus have a good chance for 4th. Who'll be 5th? I think it will be between Sales/Wamsteeker and Arnold/Williams.

Go, Kaitlyn & Andrew! For me, they are the most exciting Canadian dance team, bar none.

I do not love Aranjuez. But I love their short and I love them. I love their speed, their passion, their expression, their sharpness, their ability to interpret any type of music, the way they look at each other and at the audience, and Kaitlyn's phenomenal abdominal strength.