2018-19 Canadian figure skating

Colonel Green · Feb 23, 2019

As far as the ladies go:

- Gabrielle put out a strong short program at Nationals, so she's obviously capable of doing a solid performance at Worlds. Really just a question of managing her nerves, which is an issue for everybody, but obviously amplified considerably in her case.
- Alaine is the same as ever, lots of talent and the competitive nerve of a wet noodle. I don't expect anything from her at this point. You can be pleasantly surprised that way.
- Aurora I think is a huge talent and very promising for the future; this is all happening a bit faster than might have been ideal, particularly with the injury she's been dealing with this season, but I think going to Worlds will be good experience (and there's in a sense minimal pressure since she's not the one on whom retaining spots is perceived to mainly hang).

Osmond4gold · Feb 23, 2019

Skater Boy said:
In Russia this would be her prime time. Downhillf from here on.

In Canada we look towards building on fundamental skating skills, valuing experience, longevity and the need for a skating life after 16. Given the results of the last quad, it seems to be working so far.

NanaPat · Feb 23, 2019

Skater Boy said:
In Russia this would be her prime time. Downhillf from here on.

And in Italy she would probably be guaranteed a Worlds spot for years to come. But it isn't either, so it's somewhere in between.

Ice Dance · Feb 23, 2019

NanaPat said:
And in Italy she would probably be guaranteed a Worlds spot for years to come. But it isn't either, so it's somewhere in between.

Beccari of Italy defeated Cotop at Junior Worlds last year. They finished back to back, actually.

NanaPat · Feb 23, 2019

Then pick another country. I picked Italy because of the do have a skater, Carolina Kostner, who has pretty much been able to go to Worlds every year she was healthy/competing.

My point is that different countries have very different competitive landscapes . Some allow more room than others for a skater to develop and have a long career.

Scout · Feb 23, 2019

Skater Boy said:
In Russia this would be her prime time. Downhillf from here on.

Luckily for Aurora, this isn't Russia. It's Canada. We start low and then reach great heights (otherwise known as World and Olympic podiums):

Kaetlyn Osmond: First Worlds at age 17, finished 8th. 11th the next year. Injured year after. Didn't even qualify to world team the year after that.
Gabrielle Daleman: First Worlds at age 16, finished 13th. 21st the next year. 9th after that.
Joannie Rochette: First Worlds at age 17, finished 17th. No world medals in first 6 attempts.

emdee · Feb 24, 2019

Skater Boy said:
In Russia this would be her prime time. Downhillf from here on.

Canada is not Russia!
Instead of burning out our skaters we nurture them...
That is why Evgenia chose to train here!

Balloon · Feb 24, 2019

Agree, Canada just needs to give athletes more funding to have a stronger field at the higher levels.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 24, 2019

That's a solid selection for the World team. Cotop has lots of potential and the experience will surely help her and get her in front of the international judges more.

Glad to see Daleman is on there. I know there's pressure for spots, but I think she'll have a good outing. At Nationals, the jumps in the SP were shaky but pretty much there (after lots of lutz issues in the warm up she hung on in the actual SP). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2Sv2XyRrn0 So this could at least position her solidly. I don't expect top 5, but top 10 is very achievable for her. Hopefully her confidence returns and she can put a showing she's proud of.

kenboy123 · Feb 24, 2019

emdee said:
Canada is not Russia!
Instead of burning out our skaters we nurture them...
That is why Evgenia chose to train here!

And how has that worked out for her again????...i honestly don't think it matters where a Russian girl trains since there are so many girls there and once you make one hiccup ....your career is over...

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 24, 2019

kenboy123 said:
And how has that worked out for her again????

Well, she just won the Russian Cup final, beating the GPF bronze medalist, so there's that. She's also said how much happier she is training in Canada. Plus, her performances have improved throughout the season.

theharleyquinn · Feb 24, 2019

kenboy123 said:
And how has that worked out for her again????...i honestly don't think it matters where a Russian girl trains since there are so many girls there and once you make one hiccup ....your career is over...

And is it much better to not have sustainability in your ladies' program where 1-2 skaters taking some time off means the team could very possibly go down to 1 spot at Worlds? I'm really not understanding why some in this thread feel the need to snark about the Russian ladies in order to defend the Canadian landscape at it stands right now. Especially when there are several ladies older than 16 in their fed competing.

ice coverage · Feb 24, 2019

Is ZhaoKai Pang in Skate Canada BC/YK's mini-video of its Canada Winter Games team?? Next to Aaron Lowe.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BuPcJeVHg8F/ (Feb 23)

I still miss ZhaoKai. :sad4: :ghug:

(Good luck to the team.)

p.s. Edwards/Pang were 2011 Canada Winter Games novice champs. Seems like a full-circle thing

if he is returning as a coach or team leader.

NanaPat · Feb 24, 2019

theharleyquinn said:
And is it much better to not have sustainability in your ladies' program where 1-2 skaters taking some time off means the team could very possibly go down to 1 spot at Worlds? I'm really not understanding why some in this thread feel the need to snark about the Russian ladies in order to defend the Canadian landscape at it stands right now. Especially when there are several ladies older than 16 in their fed competing.

I agree that it's inappropriate to snark on the Russian ladies here. However, the discussion of Russian ladies started when someone used the Russian ladies to snark on Canada.

We know that Canada is a very different country and has a very different skating landscape from Russia. There are reasons for that: a smaller population (and talent pool), different ways of financing training training, etc.

Countries are different, and using "well, in Russia...." as an insult to other countries gets old fast.

kenboy123 · Feb 24, 2019

theharleyquinn said:
And is it much better to not have sustainability in your ladies' program where 1-2 skaters taking some time off means the team could very possibly go down to 1 spot at Worlds? I'm really not understanding why some in this thread feel the need to snark about the Russian ladies in order to defend the Canadian landscape at it stands right now. Especially when there are several ladies older than 16 in their fed competing.

I'm not snarking on Russian women or Medvedeva or anyone else...i'm just stating a fact, it really doesn't matter where a Russian lady trains, they are done when they have one slip up...In Canada, we don't really have anyone consistent other than Osmond so since she took a break (at least for this season), we pretty much have no one to fill that void, Canada has a way to bring up their young ladies or at least 1 or 2 to get them to peak later and have longevity, while Russians build up many really really fast...both systems has their pros and cons...if you are looking for a strong overall program and you don't value longevity too much, then Russia is the way to go...if you are looking for a not as strong program, but the ability to build at 1 or maybe 2 ladies that can have longer careers, then Canada is the way to go...it's just preference...

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 24, 2019

kenboy123 said:
I'm not snarking on Russian women or Medvedeva or anyone else...i'm just stating a fact, it really doesn't matter where a Russian lady trains, they are done when they have one slip up...In Canada, we don't really have anyone consistent other than Osmond so since she took a break (at least for this season), we pretty much have no one to fill that void, Canada has a way to bring up their young ladies or at least 1 or 2 to get them to peak later and have longevity, while Russians build up many really really fast...both systems has their pros and cons...if you are looking for a strong overall program and you don't value longevity too much, then Russia is the way to go...if you are looking for a not as strong program, but the ability to build at 1 or maybe 2 ladies that can have longer careers, then Canada is the way to go...it's just preference...

Well, tell that to Tuktamysheva. Or Pogorilaya. Or Radionova. All skaters who have had slip-ups but then came back. Russia has way more depth of course than Canada so you need to maintain high technical ability to stay in the hunt, but it's not completely unforgiving (not yet at least).

For some time, Chartrand and Daleman were also strong technical skaters although their level has gone done. Unlike Russia, Canada is not a pool of everyone who can do 3-3's where if someone falters or grows (see Lipnitskaia), there's a dozen jumping beans in the wings. We simply don't have the infrastructure, or investment, or frankly commitment to develop dozens of replacement skaters, but rather choose to focus on bright spots. Figure skating is just not something we care about compared to countries like Russia and Japan, so it's hard enough to get enough interest in the sport, let alone World-level contenders -- and yet, we have found a way with skaters like Osmond/Rochette/Daleman (and even some like Phaneuf and Chartrand).

It took Kostner 10 years to get a World gold and 12 to get an Olympic bronze, and Medvedeva has 2 World golds in her first 2 years and 3 years to get an Olympic silver. And a Canadian (after coming back from injury) eventually managed World silver and then gold, in spite of Russia and Japan being the putative favourites. All are valid ways to achieve success.

kenboy123 · Feb 24, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Well, tell that to Tuktamysheva. Or Pogorilaya. Or Radionova. All skaters who have had slip-ups but then came back. Russia has way more depth of course than Canada so you need to maintain high technical ability to stay in the hunt, but it's not completely unforgiving (not yet at least).

For some time, Chartrand and Daleman were also strong technical skaters although their level has gone done. Unlike Russia, Canada is not a pool of everyone who can do 3-3's where if someone falters or grows (see Lipnitskaia), there's a dozen jumping beans in the wings. We simply don't have the infrastructure, or investment, or frankly commitment to develop dozens of replacement skaters, but rather choose to focus on bright spots. Figure skating is just not something we care about compared to countries like Russia and Japan, so it's hard enough to get enough interest in the sport, let alone World-level contenders -- and yet, we have found a way with skaters like Osmond/Rochette/Daleman (and even some like Phaneuf and Chartrand).

It took Kostner 10 years to get a World gold and 12 to get an Olympic bronze, and Medvedeva has 2 World golds in her first 2 years and 3 years to get an Olympic silver. And a Canadian (after coming back from injury) eventually managed World silver and then gold, in spite of Russia and Japan being the putative favourites. All are valid ways to achieve success.

Where exactly are these two now????....when I say one slip up...i don't mean one bad competition every so often...i mean a bad season or a couple of competitions in a row that allows one or two people to slip through....

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 24, 2019

theharleyquinn said:
And is it much better to not have sustainability in your ladies' program where 1-2 skaters taking some time off means the team could very possibly go down to 1 spot at Worlds? I'm really not understanding why some in this thread feel the need to snark about the Russian ladies in order to defend the Canadian landscape at it stands right now. Especially when there are several ladies older than 16 in their fed competing.

Are you this critical of France for having only 1 good pairs team or Germany for having only 1 good pairs team or China for having only 1 man? Same with Korea - which arguably has lots of interest in skating following Kim but yet they have yet to produce someone with as strong results as she had -- not a slight against the program, just pointing out that all countries, even ones that are most financially/emotionally invested in figure skating - have peaks and droughts where the team could very possibly go down to 1 spot. It doesn't mean the program is unsustainable. USA has had more spots at Worlds than Canada in ladies in the last decade and yet we have more hardware overall - including a reigning World Champion.

And for a more sustainable ladies program, all 3 Russian entries at the most recent Worlds still lost to the best athlete in Canada's not so sustainable program, and 2 of them lost to our second-best athlete (who was incidentally our National Champion at the time).

CanadianSkaterGuy · Feb 24, 2019

kenboy123 said:
Where exactly are these two now????....when I say one slip up...i don't mean one bad competition every so often...i mean a bad season or a couple of competitions in a row that allows one or two people to slip through....

Anna was 4th at WC2014 (should have been 3rd arguably), and then was 13th at Worlds the year after - and people wrote her off (esp after the GP the following), and then she rebounded to get bronze at Worlds.

Radionova was written off by some after Worlds 2016 and then won a GP the following season, beating Osmond and reigning gold medalist Tuktamysheva.

I gave an example of a bad season Tuktamysheva and a skater rebounding after. Kostner too.

theharleyquinn · Feb 24, 2019

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Are you this critical of France for having only 1 good pairs team or Germany for having only 1 good pairs team or China for having only 1 man? Same with Korea - which arguably has lots of interest in skating following Kim but yet they have yet to produce someone with as strong results as she had -- not a slight against the program, just pointing out that all countries, even ones that are most financially/emotionally invested in figure skating - have peaks and droughts where the team could very possibly go down to 1 spot. It doesn't mean the program is unsustainable. USA has had more spots at Worlds than Canada in ladies in the last decade and yet we have more hardware overall - including a reigning World Champion.

And for a more sustainable ladies program, all 3 Russian entries at the most recent Worlds still lost to the best athlete in Canada's not so sustainable program, and 2 of them lost to our second-best athlete (who was incidentally our National Champion at the time).

Those are strawmen. Why would I be similarly critical of those countries in those fields? It's pretty clear to most that France, Germany, and China don't have longstanding development programs in those disciplines. Korea's development program post-Yuna has only started pushing out a generation - and they've managed to produce skaters like Eunsoo and Yelim who have been doing very well this season. If you've watched their Nationals you'd see that they have a promising junior crop, and there is a very visible pipeline for them to potentially have 2-3 spots in the next two years, even despite missing Dabin due to boot problems this year. Bringing up Yuna doesn't make much sense at all considering there was basically no development program or resources for figure skating before her, and creating a lasting domestic interest in the sport beyond Yuna herself is still understandably taking a while. Canada is a Big 4 country in figure skating - you're comparing small and medium-sized puppies to one of the biggest dogs in the neighborhood. One would expect a country with a host of excellent coaches, funding, and an endorsing culture for the sport to have at least a comparable pipeline.

And the more people cite 2018 Worlds and discuss Kaetlyn coming back next season, the more it seems to suggest that fans see her as the entirety of the Canadian ladies program. How Gabby and Kaetlyn, two ladies with visible raw talent from the beginning, did at the previous two worlds bears no weight in what's ahead. I admit I get a little fatigued at the unwillingness in this thread and others to talk about the trajectory of the Canadian ladies program when the first response is always to cite 2017/2018 Worlds, snark about Medvedeva and Zagitova's post-Olympics struggles, and generally contrast it with the Russian system like that changes the present.

2018-19 Canadian figure skating

Colonel Green

Osmond4gold

NanaPat

Ice Dance

NanaPat

Scout

emdee

Balloon

CanadianSkaterGuy

kenboy123

CanadianSkaterGuy

theharleyquinn

ice coverage

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