2014 NHK Trophy Mens Short Program 11/28

[Meoima]

^I think 3 weeks is enough for him to recover, the doctor said so. But to be able to compete he forced himself to start training after just 10 days after the collision instead of 2-3 weeks as required. And in Han Yan's case it's 4 days!!

I talked wih Chinese fans who translated and sent my get well messages to Han Yan to his blog. They said the doctor's recommendation might be okay if you were normal people with normal dose of activities. But these 2 young men are athletes, top skaters who train themselves extensively with difficult jumps and footwork everyday. It's harder for them to get back to their top form with all the early training of course.

Yes, they might not be in terrible state, they might be just so so now. But that's why I think they shouldn't skate so soon. Since more training, competitions and pressure might take toll on their healing body. For sure I don't think they couldn't walk, couldn't play or anything. But to compete at the top level, I don't think they are ready yet. Same thing for Joshi, who withdrew from CoR right after her SP. I was so relieved that she withdrew.

If anything I am furious at Han Yan and Yuzuru for pushing their bodies so much. But I can't get angry at them.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't know... Joshua Farris W-D from two competitions due to injury and be still fared poorly here. A case that injures take time to heal? Or that you just have to go out there eventually and sometimes the result is not ideal?

In many instances, injuries haven't healed adequately enough. And yes, that can lead to errors. But it's unfair to see popular/higher-tier/gold-medal skaters skate poorly and be like "must be because they're injured", and then look at second-tier skaters do poorly and be like "they skated bad because they're prone to errors, not because they're injured".

 

[Meoima]

In many instances, injuries haven't healed adequately enough. And yes, that can lead to errors. But it's unfair to see popular/higher-tier/gold-medal skaters skate poorly and be like "must be because they're injured", and then look at second-tier skaters do poorly and be like "they skated bad because they're prone to errors, not because they're injured".

Why do you love assuming words people never said? Skaters making mistake is not something new. But it's understandable and reasonable that their fans are worried about their health when they have just come back from injuries.

Didn't you see how people commented when Joshi skate poorly at CoR after her surgery? If anything there's people who are worried about athletes' health. And there's people who don't I suppose.
Joshua Farris has a long history of injuries so I am not surprised if he's not in the condition to skate as well. :hopelessness:

And I was thinking Kozuka might have skated with pain at CoR as well. :hopelessness: Some people said he didn't take the hip injury which had been scheduled in the last season.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Why do you love assuming words people never said? :disapp:
Didn't you see how people commented when Joshi skate poorly at CoR after her surgery? If anything there's people who are worried about athletes' health. And there's people who don't I suppose.
Joshua Farris has a long history of injuries so I am not surprised if he's not in the condition to skate as well. :hopelessness:

Oh, that's not a bad thing. It's good to worry about athlete's health because it's not worth it if a skater has a career ending or life-threatening injury. But what I'm saying is that it's up to the athlete to determine that. When Osmond returns to competition, I'm going to assume it's because she feels ready to. And if she skates poorly, I'm not going to be all like "She should have taken more time off".

A good skate isn't always an indicator of a skater's good health. Just like a bad skate isn't entirely due to a skater being not in good health. At some point you have to question is an error made because the skater made an error or because the injury caused it... and I find too many times people are like "Oh, he/she only fell because they're not completely healthy" or people saying "If skater X is healthy they'll win". e.g. it's pointless/indeterminable to say Stojko would have won Nagano if he were 100% healthy, and frankly kind of insulting to Kulik's clean skates.

There have been plenty of times skaters have won with injuries and plenty of times skaters have lost when they were 100% healthy.

 

[DonneeDarko]

In many instances, injuries haven't healed adequately enough. And yes, that can lead to errors. But it's unfair to see popular/higher-tier/gold-medal skaters skate poorly and be like "must be because they're injured", and then look at second-tier skaters do poorly and be like "they skated bad because they're prone to errors, not because they're injured".

In the case of Yuzuru, I don't believe he skated poorly. His skating was superb. He just landed 2 jumps poorly due to the injuries. When he's healthy he does both skate and jump superbly.

 

[Meoima]

Oh, that's not a bad thing. It's good to worry about athlete's health because it's not worth it if a skater has a career ending or life-threatening injury. But what I'm saying is that it's up to the athlete to determine that.

Mah... If anything I've always called Han Yan and Yuzuru idiots ever since CoC.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

In the case of Yuzuru, I don't believe he skated poorly. His skating was superb. He just landed 2 jumps poorly.

Agreed. The rest of his skating was well done, certainly better than CoC (where he was definitely overscored on PCS by a ton). His PCS here was a bit better scored, although I would've probably had his PCS lower to just about 40-41 and a score around 75-76 points.

 

[penguin]

A good skate isn't always an indicator of a skater's good health. Just like a bad skate isn't entirely due to a skater being not in good health. At some point you have to question is an error made because the skater made an error or because the injury caused it... and I find too many times people are like "Oh, he/she only fell because they're not completely healthy" or people saying "If skater X is healthy they'll win".

I agree with your overall statement about injuries not always being the cause of a bad skate... but in this specific case with Hanyu, it's seems rather obtuse to ignore the very recent, horrifying, blood-spattered crash he had three weeks ago and argue that it isn't relevant in this performance. Hanyu has definitely had bad performances when healthy, but I don't think it's reaching at all to worry that his health is a factor in this competition. I also wish he took more time off to heal, but he seems to me to be very motivated and competitive.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Mah... If anything I've always called Han Yan and Yuzuru idiots ever since CoC.

Yes, but how long is it appropriate for them to rest up? Do you think they should have sat out the rest of the season?

Certainly it was not very smart to compete right after the collision in the FS. But when do you think they should have gotten back to training? To jumping? To competing? These are all answers that the skater/coach/med staff makes a call on.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I agree with your overall statement about injuries not always being the cause of a bad skate... but in this specific case with Hanyu, it's seems rather obtuse to ignore the very recent, horrifying, blood-spattered crash he had three weeks ago and argue that it isn't relevant in this performance. Hanyu has definitely had bad performances when healthy, but I don't think it's reaching at all to worry that his health is a factor in this competition. I also wish he took more time off to heal, but he seems to me to be very motivated and competitive.

Oh, I'm saying it's a factor, yes. But the extent to which it's a factor is being a bit sensationalized. CoC FS was a spontaneous bad decision made in 30 minutes, but he and Orser have had 3 weeks to determine if he's ready to skate at NHK. The other guys could also be dealing with practice injuries from falls/etc. that we never saw, but the point is, every guy who competed at NHK felt they were ready enough to compete and thus their errors/successes must be held to similar standards.

Like, if Hanyu/another skater skated perfectly, that doesn't mean he's in perfect health. But the vice versa should follow suit... if he skates poorly, it doesn't mean it's entirely because he's not in perfect health.

 

[Meoima]

Yes, but how long is it appropriate for them to rest up? Do you think they should have sat out the rest of the season?
Certainly it was not very smart to compete right after the collision in the FS. But when do you think they should have gotten back to training? To jumping? To competing? These are all answers that the skater/coach/med staff makes a call on.

I'd rather see them skipped their 2nd GP and rest till Nationals, 4CC and WC. That's what I meant. Pushing themselves for GP series isn't worth their health.

If anything I am kind of pleased because I know Yuzuru will not have a clean skate by tomorrow. And I have counted too many comments saying that they would rather not see Yuzuru in GPF because they are worried about his condition. JSF admitted that he is still suffering from pains.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I'd rather see them skipped their 2nd GP and rest till Nationals, 4CC and WC. That's what I meant. Pushing themselves for GP series isn't worth their health.

If anything I am kind of pleased because I know Yuzuru will not have a clean skate by tomorrow. And I have counted too many comments saying that they would rather not see Yuzuru in GPF because they are worried about his condition. JSF admitted that he is still suffering from pains.

But how do you know that even resting up until Nationals/4CC/WC is enough time for them to recover?

 

[Meoima]

But how do you know that even resting up until Nationals/4CC/WC is enough time for them to recover?

114 days till Worlds. Much longer time for them to rest than training right after the collision just 4-10 days, don't you think?

 

[Icey]

Joanne Conway, 6 time British Ladies Champion

Here's her Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanne_Conway

And yes, she was awful. Talked too much, and was way over-critical (often undeservedly so). She barely had a good word to say about anybody!

As was suggested in the Pairs thread, if Eurosport wants a female commentator, get Sinead Kerr.

CaroLiza_fan

Has Kerr ever commentated at a competition--- so that we would know how she would handle it?

 

[mjj]

Would yuzuru retire makes all you guys happy?

 

[Icey]

There is no skating fed. which would persuade a skater to withdraw when the skater WANTS to compete. With respect, I'm not sure whether you intended to make it sound like he was almost forced to do it or just expect his fed. representatives to act like his parents.

I don't think that is true for all feds. Although different in detail, Flatt was fined for competing at worlds without notifying the US Fed she was injured. The question is, though, if she had let them know she was injured but still wanted to compete, would they have allowed her to.

 

[ice coverage]

I really like he's skating like he's singing the song with his body.
It's hard to explain but he's brilliant despite his struggles today

Love your compliment for Josh Farris: "... singing the song with his body."

And I like this photo of him from his NHK SP:

http://web.icenetwork.com/photos/102632766 (photo #7 in the gallery)​

Best to Josh and all the men with their free skates.

Has Kerr ever commentated at a competition--- so that we would know how she would handle it?

Yes, Sinead Kerr has given commentary for Universal Sports.
(John Kerr has too, on one or more separate occasions, IIRC.)

 

[yyyskate]

I just worried about Yuzuru's ankle, since it seems has been sprained many times now....
about Han, he thought that he can at least performance a SP based on how he assume his conditions will be, but admitted that after SP, his stamina even is not strong enough for a SP, then the LP is come out of pure grit on TEB...

 

[Sandpiper]

Umm... judging by the scores and placements we're seeing... I take it that things were ghastly? :hopelessness:

 

[penguin]

But how do you know that even resting up until Nationals/4CC/WC is enough time for them to recover?

114 days till Worlds. Much longer time for them to rest than training right after the collision just 4-10 days, don't you think?

Exactly. None of us can know the state of his health and I'm sure he and his coach are trying to make good decisions, but it seems naive to say that whatever the athlete decides must be the right thing for the athlete. I don't feel like the concern for Hanyu and Han Yan is being sensationalized, given the context, really. I'm certainly not going to look at their subpar skates in the 2-3 weeks after that crash and say, "Hm, you know, they're probably all recovered by now and I bet those falls are just because they had a bad day, and unrelated to injury."