2014 NHK Trophy Mens Short Program 11/28

[IcyEdges]

Would yuzuru retire makes all you guys happy?

Wow! much?

Seriously. Abbott at his best (IE, 2010 Nationals LP) is something that Hanyu can only dream of at this point in his career. He's young so maybe it will come with time.

And I say this as a massive Abbott "hater". His massive head casing issues and penchant for terrible excuses and inarticulate press answers have honestly turned me off of him. But his incredible skating (when he's 'on') speaks for itself.

Thank you. I agree with the bolded part as well as your willingness to say that as a non-fan of Abbott. That's very respectable!

The rest of it, there is no doubting he has issues, but there are many other skaters that do as well. Excuses, sorry but no. His abilities with the press haven't been great lately, but he has done wonderfully in the past (prior to all the Sochi hoopla and immediately leading up to Sochi).

 

[penguin]

I dunno, Abbott is a gorgeous skater when he's completely on, true... but he's so, so rarely on. Judging Abbott as better than Hanyu because of his artistic potential seems just as misguided as the reverse (inflating a mistake-ridden Hanyu program because of his technical potential). I do think the latter happens with more frequency, but I think both scenarios are problematic.

 

[gravy]

I dunno, Abbott is a gorgeous skater when he's completely on, true... but he's so, so rarely on. Judging Abbott as better than Hanyu because of his artistic potential seems just as misguided as the reverse (inflating a mistake-ridden Hanyu program because of his technical potential). I do think the latter happens with more frequency, but I think both scenarios are problematic.

We're pretty much doing what everyone else on this board always does. "If 'so-&-so' was healthy they would have done better than 'so-&-so', etc, etc". But yes, I agree with you. Scoring should happen on what is presented on the day, not on what could have been done.

Thank you. I agree with the bolded part as well as your willingness to say that as a non-fan of Abbott. That's very respectable!

The rest of it, there is no doubting he has issues, but there are many other skaters that do as well. Excuses, sorry but no. His abilities with the press haven't been great lately, but he has done wonderfully in the past (prior to all the Sochi hoopla and immediately leading up to Sochi).

Just an FYI, I'm not actually an Abbott "hater". I just said that (specifically in quotations to quote others) because that is what fans of his (or of any fan) would call me if I were to simply point out his faults.

Believe me, I'd be popping open some champagne tonight if he ends up winning NHK! Most likely because when his LPs are 'on' they are on and magical.

 

[IcyEdges]

We're pretty much doing what everyone else on this board always does. "If 'so-&-so' was healthy they would have done better than 'so-&-so', etc, etc". But yes, I agree with you. Scoring should happen on what is presented on the day, not on what could have been done.



Just an FYI, I'm not actually an Abbott "hater". I just said that (specifically in quotations to quote others) because that is what fans of his (or of any fan) would call me if I were to simply point out his faults.

Believe me, I'd be popping open some champagne tonight if he ends up winning NHK! Most likely because when his LPs are 'on' they are on and magical.

:agree:

 

[Meoima]

I would love to see Jeremy does a decent competition as well, because he's 29 and not getting any younger.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Has Kerr ever commentated at a competition--- so that we would know how she would handle it?

Yes, she has. She did a guest stint in the commentary box a few years ago when she was out injured (I think it was for Eurosport, but it might have been for the BBC when they were covering Worlds). And she was absolutely brilliant!

Also, she was commentating during the Skate Canada Free Dance for Universal the other week. And her commentary seems to have down well on that side of the pond as well.

So, that is why I am pushing for Eurosport to consider her.

CaroLiza_fan

EDIT:

Yes, Sinead Kerr has given commentary for Universal Sports.
(John Kerr has too, on one or more separate occasions, IIRC.)

Sorry, Golden, hadn't seen that you had already answered!

 

[Alba]

I'm not a fan of Abbott at all, but when he's on he is a great skater. I also do love his LP and I think it's the best LP this year among men.

I like Farris. He clearly is not fit yet, his legs looked heavy, and therefore he looked slow as well. So I wonder why did he put that 3A right at the end?
I understand putting it in the second half, but he can do that in the beggining of the second half, not the very end. At lest, not at the moment, till he get back on form.

Wow! much?

Maybe. But he/she got a point though. This discussion is becoming a bit tiresome.
It looks like some goes crazy here no matter what. :hopelessness:

 

[Art&Sport]

Well, I have to laugh at Murakami and Mura trying to channel Daisuke Takahashi, or more like give them some respect, cuz so far they are doing a pretty good job of it! And Murakami has a head start too with having Dai's first name and trying to copy his hairstyle.

Excellent skate from Jeremy, and I hope he keeps up the positive energy and can-do attitude. Everyone in the men's field would/ should crave to have Jeremy's movement abilities and presentation skills on the ice! Many of Jeremy's competitors are certainly copying his facial hair this season.

Humble, humble??! If you think Jeremy is "attempting" to come off as humble, I think he needs to ditch that asap. What you think is an attempt at humble, is probably just him being himself. All athletes should have a normal balanced ego in any case. Plushenko never came off as humble, nor should he have. I think all U.S. men need to pump up their ego and self-confidence and self-belief. Practice clean programs with triples and then try to get consistent on at least one quad and do some smack down at international competitions. :yes:

 

[Sandpiper]

Mura nailed it again! Still found the program a little... listless? But I liked it more than its last outing. Guess I got used to it so it feels less choppy.

The first half of Abbott's skate still makes me want to shut the sound off. Glad he toned down the "woe is me"... but now it just comes across as bland. I'm glad he had a good skate, but I'll never understand why he's hailed as some great artist, or a skater comparable to Yuzuru (he was three times better than Yuzuru on the night though).

4-2s cost Murakami and Voronov... Honestly, I'd rather see 4-2s than 3-3s, but...

Once again I love Hanyu's program, but once again the jumps didn't go well... Fight back in the free, Yuzu (or take the time to heal, if you don't make GPF).

Righini put a big smile on my face. Loved, loved that program--it takes a real showman to pull it off. (Balde tried something similar, but it wasn't as engaging).

Farris, well... Fantastic spins (that Adelina-esque sideways position with the catchfoot!), but how on earth did he fall in the footwork?

All in all, better than I was expecting, after seeing the scores and placements. Biggest disappointment was actually Conway's commentary on B. ESP. Hypercritical doesn't begin to describe it. Looking back at it now, Hanretty was actually fair (too many "good girl/good boy" comments, and came across as an unabashed Nichol fanboy... but at least he addressed the merits of even the programs he disliked). Another disappointment is the super-similar style of the American men this season... hopefully Jason and Max make the world team to bring something different.

 

[karne]

*wakes up* *wanders in*

Wait, I could have sworn I clicked on the men's SP thread, not the Hanyu thread...

Oh, and what is this patently ridiculous rubbish about Hanyu being so much better than Abbott? I mean come on, just look at their skating skills. Jeremy is light-years ahead of Hanyu.


Anyway, I've watched Josh's program, and I'm feeling a good deal more optimistic about things than yesterday. Level 4 on all spins - and I spent half that catch-foot camel making exclamations of shock and surprise - where has this inverted position come from? I love it! The jumps weren't so bad, really (and if I hear that stupid woman on B-Eurosport say "outside the circle" one more time...)

Hopefully, he brings a beautiful Schindler's List today and rockets up the standings. I imagine I'll be crying. It'll just be too much for my heart this week.

 

[HanDomi]

I mean come on, just look at their skating skills. Jeremy is light-years ahead of Hanyu.

 

[silverfoxes]

All in all, better than I was expecting, after seeing the scores and placements. Biggest disappointment was actually Conway's commentary on B. ESP. Hypercritical doesn't begin to describe it. Looking back at it now, Hanretty was actually fair (too many "good girl/good boy" comments, and came across as an unabashed Nichol fanboy... but at least he addressed the merits of even the programs he disliked). Another disappointment is the super-similar style of the American men this season... hopefully Jason and Max make the world team to bring something different.

Agreed. I suppose lyrical skaters aren't my favorite style to begin with, but surely it's possible for them to portray something other than "lovelorn sadsack," which is what I get from Jeremy, Josh, Ross, and Stephen, with music ranging from bland to whiny (sometimes both). It makes me miss Lambiel and Buttle...they both did the "lyrical artiste" much better, I'd say. Actually, I think Jeremy Ten is doing it the best this season, from what I've seen so far.

And yes, even if I'm not in love with Max or Jason's programs this season, I do appreciate them more for going a completely different route.

 

[Pamigena]

It looks like some goes crazy here no matter what. :hopelessness:

Hello. Welcome to the internet. Please take as many welcoming cookies as you like. You may leave your sanity in the cloakroom but please note that we assume no liability if anything gets lost. The corner for fanatics of all kind is on your left-hand side, the sections for delusions and irrationality to your right. Conspiracy theories will be discussed in the backroom. Painting therapy for those who need to express their irritation in a more colorful way is being held on Mondays and Thursdays. All wax crayons will be eatable.



(PS: I'm aware of how useless this post is. It's my way of coping with the fact that I'm trying to stay out of so many discussions. Deal with it.)

 

[Silvia451]

ITA. I watched the sp and think Hanyu's program was the most graceful program here. His skating skills also improved a lot now that he has better SS than Jeremy -- despite jump errors Hanyu's flow across ice was beautiful to watch -- and he is the best male spinner since Lambiel retired.

Jeremy's program was quite bland, especially the first half. I so much prefer his last season's SP. Like you said, all three American men here (Jeremy, Ross, and Joshua) have similar programs. Max and Jason have more interesting programs.

I totally agree
Yuzuru's skating skills and interpretation improved a lot. Despite the age, he looks like a mature skater.
For me, at the moment, the "artists" are 1.Machida 2.Yuzuru and Denis

 

[Sandpiper]

Agreed. I suppose lyrical skaters aren't my favorite style to begin with, but surely it's possible for them to portray something other than "lovelorn sadsack," which is what I get from Jeremy, Josh, Ross, and Stephen, with music ranging from bland to whiny (sometimes both). It makes me miss Lambiel and Buttle...they both did the "lyrical artiste" much better, I'd say. Actually, I think Jeremy Ten is doing it the best this season, from what I've seen so far.

And yes, even if I'm not in love with Max or Jason's programs this season, I do appreciate them more for going a completely different route.

Among the lovelorn sadsacks laugh, I actually liked Josh most despite the jump/steps failure. The spins made him more interesting, and he does come across as sincere. Jeremy Abbott, to be honest... almost looked like a self-parody back when I first saw his SP. Thankfully he toned it down.

I like Jason's LP but not his SP; it's the opposite with Max.

 

[karne]

Among the lovelorn sadsacks laugh, I actually liked Josh most despite the jump/steps failure. The spins made him more interesting, and he does come across as sincere. Jeremy Abbott, to be honest... almost looked like a self-parody back when I first saw his SP. Thankfully he toned it down.

I like Jason's LP but not his SP; it's the opposite with Max.

I think we'll just have to adopt Lovelorn Sadsacks as a general collective. I haven't seen Jeremy's or Ross' yet (what on earth was Jeremy wearing?!), but this SP of Josh's is easily my favourite SP ever of his. I'm still feeling a little wuzrobbed of happy upbeat Josh but even Lovelorn Sadsack Josh is beautiful. Gorgeous whole body movement.

I love Max's SP, hate Jason's SP, love both their LP's, so as you can see, Nationals is going to be awful for me!

 

[Art&Sport]

^^ Below I was responding to some of the lyrical lovelorn sadsack haters, prior to seeing your post, karne. ITA with your thoughts generally, especially 're the beautiful moves in Josh's sp. Honestly, after looking at some performances at U.S. Sectionals, I think U.S.Nationals should be something to behold if everyone is on their game, in all disciplines, particularly the men. There are quite a few former junior men debuting in seniors this season.

Eh, different strokes for different folks and we all get to have our say without having to get out there like these athletes and perform under pressure. Josh was looking great with the innovative flair on some of his spins, and the transitions. He is obviously coming back from injury and is not 100%. When healthy and well-trained, Josh is fairly consistent and he has completed quads in competition before. So I wish good health for Josh, and good for him to get back out there to compete prior to U.S. Nationals.

I agree that Hanyu has improved this season artistically. He always had wonderfully smooth flow over the ice, but not the most fully developed presentation skills. Plus Hanyu has always battled for endurance due to his asthma. He seemed stronger physically at the start of this season, but his tech had slightly suffered, and then that collision whammy and mess at CoC, not to mention the aftermath with muscle soreness and the psychological effects of the public opinion backlash.

 

[yay]

I don't think that is true for all feds. Although different in detail, Flatt was fined for competing at worlds without notifying the US Fed she was injured. The question is, though, if she had let them know she was injured but still wanted to compete, would they have allowed her to.

It's a bit irrelevent. If they wouldn't, it would be due to her taking a nation's spot for worlds, not because they would feel overprotective about her.

What I tried to express initially, though.. Summing all my thoughts up: I'm confused that some posters consider Hanyu a manipulated child, driven by a sense of obligation and in desperate need of protection.

And I must finally mention I really liked the Joshua's program. Hope to see a clean performance of it someday.

 

[Violet Bliss]

What I tried to express initially, though.. Summing all my thoughts up: I'm confused that some posters consider Hanyu a manipulated child, driven by a sense of obligation and in desperate need of protection.

Takahashi has lots of Aunties; Hanyu has an army of doting protective Mommies.

 

[Mrs. P]

I'm not 100 percent sold on Joshua's SP yet, but I found myself thinking that I actually liked it more than I though I would (based on what I saw a few months ago). There are some lovely moments and I do feel Jeffery Buttle did a good job in making Joshua's introspection a way to connect to the audience, as opposed to block it.

I'm not getting the Hanyu vs. Abbott comparisons at this competition. One skated well the other made a lot of errors. One is 2nd and the other is in 5th. Not sure why there's so much fuss? That said, I do not understand why Jeremy loses points on spin levels. This seems to be a constant thing from him (and heck, who can forget that he almost included a zero-point spin in a SP one year and he didn't find out until someone pointed it out at nationals?!). The 3A in the second half is a smart move, since it's a good jump from him.